Post subject: Official support for 60 fps YouTube?
Site Admin, Skilled player (1251)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
There has already been a lot of discussion about that, but it was never reduced down to a clear poll, neither did it aim for figuring out what exactly does youtube do to 60 fps footage, and how to properly use it. So here it goes. YouTube is only able to play at 60 fps in Google Chrome (support in Firefox Nightly and Internet Explorer 11 was reported, but never tested by us), when you select that option in the Quality drop-down menu ("720p60fps" or "1080p60fps"). Other browsers only allow to select quality/resolution, but don't add the "60fps" option. Why is it important for us? Because absolute majority of our runs are at ~60 fps, so it'd be reasonable to watch it at native framerate. However, streaming at full framerate was not possible until recently. But we really needed it, because many games were using it as a feature to simulate transparency (blinking on every frame at 60 fps does look like transparency on TV). If you upload a 60 fps video with such a blinking object to old youtube, it will show up as solid, or won't show up at all. We tried to fight that by dropping frames at different rates, like making it 25 fps, but I must admit that the smartest way to drop frames (drop 3rd, 5th and 6th out of every 6-frame segment) was not discovered. Then TASBlend, and ng_deblink were invented. The first one was blending every 2 frames into one, adjusting the percentage of bleeding of one frame into another. The second method calculates the mask for any object that's blinking every other frame, and uses it to make it (and only it) translucent, then after dropping every other frame, you get a look that's very close to the original footage. It only can't handle video where background is shaking at that rate, simply losing one half of it. It was also suggested, that when watching with modern 60 fps feature, background scrolling (and animation in general) look way smoother than at 30 fps dropped. The question is: Are you able to actually watch youtube at 60 fps? Which means, your hardware/software is capable of not falling back to 30 fps, even when 60 fps is enabled manually. Mine is not. No matter what I do, it's 30 fps only. So here are the test videos: Source (60 fps lossless emulator dump): https://archive.org/download/FullFpsTest/sm.7z https://archive.org/download/FullFpsTest/s3k.7z Full fps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYWRpehyRqo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgY1_31eBAo Deblinked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKMQVCTZFac http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TikaZ3NXLQA For how it should look like originally, watch the lossless dumps. Then watch full fps videos in Chrome (and other browsers for the sake of a test) with Quality 720p60fps or higher. Then watch deblinked videos in any browser you wish (won't affect the result). And finally, answer the poll. As for posting, please describe what difference do you see between full fps encodes and deblinked ones. WARNING: Set the monitor rate to 60 Hz.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2633)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6437
Location: The land down under.
Until there is full support on all browsers which other people use I'm going with no. Also ontop of that until there is support for 4k30fps with 1080p60fps as another option I'm sticking and staying with no.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1251)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Spikestuff wrote:
Until there is full support on all browsers which other people use I'm going with no. Also ontop of that until there is support for 4k30fps with 1080p60fps as another option I'm sticking and staying with no.
Good note, but here we're testing if officially intended browser is able to show it at 60 fps, because if it's not, then even support in all browsers isn't helping. Otherwise I agree with you.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
Checked in Chrome39, IE11, and FF34.0.5. Chrome was good, IE/FF no, and after selecting 720p60 in IE, it dropped the 60, so is clearly not playing them as such. FF didn't even give the FPS marker, just the 720p resolution, and also doesn't work. Also, switch the Sonic and Metroid links in the first pair so they're consistent with the order of the other pairs.
creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
60fps in Chrome is not as perfect as MPCH's native playback (and it probably will never be), but still a huge improvement. Specifically, the scrolling when going through the doors in Super Metroid is jerking once or twice, and the flying machines in the background at Sonic 3's first boss fight are jerking a bit more. Chrome: v39.0.2171.95 m System: Phenom II X2 OS: Windows 7 Ultimate (I also have a Phenom II X6, but I think the results will be similar.)
Pokota
He/Him
Joined: 2/5/2014
Posts: 779
Also checked in Chrome. Looks good to me - there are a few dropped frames here and there in Sonic but overall it's playing back at 60. A couple other good scenes to use are the "Accept Our Quest, Hero" scene from the Zelda Oracle games, and any part of Sonic 2 that wears a shield. Both look dumbbad below 60fps since they're simulating transparency for a covering sprite.
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?
Site Admin, Skilled player (1251)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Forgot to add this question to the OP. Whoever already posted, please answer too: Describe what difference do you see between full fps encodes and deblinked ones. For me, deblinked look almost 100% identical to the source.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
AntyMew
It/Its
Encoder, Player (35)
Joined: 10/22/2014
Posts: 425
feos wrote:
Forgot to add this question to the OP. Whoever already posted, please answer too: Describe what difference do you see between full fps encodes and deblinked ones.
Full fps encode at 30 fps or 60 fps?
Just a Mew! 〜 It/She ΘΔ 〜
Site Admin, Skilled player (1251)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
At 60 of course.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
fsvgm777
She/Her
Senior Publisher, Player (226)
Joined: 5/28/2009
Posts: 1213
Location: Luxembourg
OK, so with the Flash player, you're pretty much guaranteed to get 60 fps video at 720p+ (provided you have hardware acceleration enabled) (tested in Firefox 34.0.5 with the Flash player, and I got 60 FPS video at 720p in both cases). However, the HTML5 player is a more complicated case. It all depends on whether the browser supports Media Source Extensions & H.264 (it seems to me). Only Chrome supports it for now (I only checked stable revisions). Otherwise, if the browser supports Media Source Extensions & WebM VP9, you have to wait an eternity for YouTube to process the video with the VP9 codec (it seems to me again). You can check here what your browser supports. Anyway, I checked in Chrome 39 (with the HTML5 player) and Firefox (with the Flash player). I noticed some dropped frames here and there, but overall, they pretty much matched with the sources. I noticed that in the S3&K deblinked footage that parts of the boss weren't properly deblinked at all (since Sonic is on it). I also noticed that there were no shaking effects in the Super Metroid footage and that in the S3&K footage in the part where a floating ship drops some bombs, the ground pretty much only goes in one direction (e.g. it goes "down", then back "up"), while in the 60 FPS footage, it actually shakes back and forth. Oh, by the way: YouTube literally just halves the framerate of 50 FPS footage without applying any kind of algorithm.
Steam Community page - Bluesky profile Oh, I'm just a concerned observer.
creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
Another thing that's important: In Firefox, to get best results you have to close any other tab that is not 100% static content.
feos wrote:
For me, deblinked look almost 100% identical to the source.
The scrolling doors in Super Metroid (basically any scrolling) is much less smooth.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
The Super Metroid video works a bit strangely for me. I'm testing with Firefox on Windows right at this moment, and using the html5 youtube player. In 360p Samus is solid, while in 720p (not 60fps) Samus blinks. I don't really understand why.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1251)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Try Chrome? Explanation: it seems to be going 3 ways with 60 fps stuff. At 360p it drops every second frame, at 480p it drops 3rd, 5th and 6th out of 6, and at higher resolutions it shows 60 fps, depending on your browser and something else.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Publisher
Joined: 4/23/2009
Posts: 1283
Windows 7 using Chrome (HTML 5) at 1080p to test I get no dropped frames so the YT 60 FPS clips look exactly like lossless source (minus the holy crap compression artifacts everywhere on the sonic encode). As for the deblink YT encodes, for Metroid, the door is weird and the "translucent" is too translucent. What I mean is in lossless source and 60 FPS YT, I see blinking, not translucent, while the deblink one is really translucent. As for Sonic, the deblink version is definitely more jerky due to less frames per second and the same "translucent" problem exist like Metroid.
Pokota
He/Him
Joined: 2/5/2014
Posts: 779
Tested only in Chrome Version 39.0.2171.95 m ---- In the 60 fps-enabled encode (watched at both 720 and 1080), Samus gets the occasional hiccup-blink (meaning, there's occasionally sequential frames where she's fully there or fully not there), but the avi file does this as well. In the deblinked encode, Samus looks flatly translucent at 720p, which is different from the avi. ---- In the 60fps enabled encode, Sonic's also getting the same hiccup-blink when the boss enemies are being hit (but in this case the hiccup-blink isn't in the avi file). Shields look good, you can clearly see the flame on the Tornado alternating between short and long. In the deblinked encode, Sonic's bubble shields look good. Beyond that, simply watching the backdrops makes it obvious that it's not running fully at 60 fps. Also the flame on the Tornado looks cool-but-incorrect. ---- An interesting thing I've noted in doing this is that I get better overall performance in normal mode as opposed to Theater mode; largely because I'm running on stock (though Win 8.1 capable) hardware. I'll run the tests on another machine and report back, I suspect it'll handle better there as that machine's more... advanced, I guess.
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?
creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
Aktan wrote:
[...] the "translucent" is too translucent. What I mean is in lossless source and 60 FPS YT, I see blinking, not translucent, while the deblink one is really translucent. As for Sonic [...] the same "translucent" problem exist like Metroid.
Since deblink is supposed to turn "blinking transparency" into true transparency (i.e. blink to blend, hence the name), this is just as intended.
Joined: 2/15/2009
Posts: 329
Summary: Internet Explorer 11 had flawless performance. Easily outperformed Chrome. I recommend it for all of your 60fps youtube watching :) "As for posting, please describe what difference do you see between full fps encodes and deblinked ones." All programs closed. No other moving images. Windows 8.1 x64. Chrome 39.0.2171.95 m. IE 11.0.9600.17239. MPC-HC x64 1.7.7. VLC 2.1.5. Source (60 fps lossless emulator dump): Samus' sprite alternates between transparent and solid while taking damage. Door transitions rarely have hitches. Very rarely in VLC. MPC-HC performed worse. Super Metroid Full FPS (Chrome): Samus' sprite alternates between transparent and solid while taking damage. Door transitions sometimes have 1-4 hitches. It is different each time. This can happen at 720p or 1080p, theater mode or fullscreen. Super Metroid Full FPS (IE11): Default IE in Windows 8.1 can play 60fps youtube. Visit https://www.youtube.com/html5 . I didn't have a single frame drop during door transitions. Resolution or window size did not matter. Super Metroid deblinked: Samus' sprite stays translucent while taking damage. Door transitions are consistently rough.
Working on: Legend of Legaia, Vagrant Story
creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
exileut wrote:
Summary: Internet Explorer 11 had flawless performance. Easily outperformed Chrome. I recommend it for all of your 60fps youtube watching :)
So IE can play 60fps YT videos?
exileut wrote:
IE 11.0.9600.17239 Super Metroid Full FPS: I needed to go to https://www.youtube.com/html5 to enable 60fps watching. I could still watch in HD, but I was limited to 30fps.
So it can't?
Publisher
Joined: 4/23/2009
Posts: 1283
creaothceann wrote:
Since deblink is supposed to turn "blinking transparency" into true transparency (i.e. blink to blend, hence the name), this is just as intended.
I figured that it was intended, but I dislike it since it is not what the original source shows, but it is one good compromise.
Joined: 2/15/2009
Posts: 329
creaothceann wrote:
exileut wrote:
Summary: Internet Explorer 11 had flawless performance. Easily outperformed Chrome. I recommend it for all of your 60fps youtube watching :)
So IE can play 60fps YT videos?
exileut wrote:
IE 11.0.9600.17239 Super Metroid Full FPS: I needed to go to https://www.youtube.com/html5 to enable 60fps watching. I could still watch in HD, but I was limited to 30fps.
So it can't?
Edited post for clarity. Default IE in Windows 8.1 can play 60fps youtube. Visit https://www.youtube.com/html5
Working on: Legend of Legaia, Vagrant Story
Site Admin, Skilled player (1251)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Damn I forgot to mention. To properly see the source footage in the OP post (and btw maybe the YT streams too) one needs to set the monitor to 60 Hz!!! At 75 or whatever else it will not ever show 60 fps video correctly. Uh, can you guys all try that?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Pokota
He/Him
Joined: 2/5/2014
Posts: 779
Windows is set to display at 60 Hz Monitor is reporting V. Frequency 59.9 Hz Is that close enough? I can report that Win7 IE11 does not play back at 60fps.
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?
Site Admin, Skilled player (1251)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Pokota wrote:
Windows is set to display at 60 Hz Monitor is reporting V. Frequency 59.9 Hz Is that close enough?
Yes. It's ridiculously closer to the source framerate than 75Hz anyway. 60 fps alternate frame blinking will not be alternate frame blinking at 75Hz. Proper alternate frame blinking for 75Hz would be in a 75fps video, and I bet it will look translucent. Going to convert an SM clip into that.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
On Mac OS X, with Firefox Samus blinks both on 360p and 720p. I don't understand why it works differently in Windows. With Chrome the sprite blinks in 360p in the same way, and in 720p60 it blinks significantly faster, and all movement is visibly smoother (which isn't surprising; in other words, the 60Hz version is working as it should).
Pokota
He/Him
Joined: 2/5/2014
Posts: 779
Warp wrote:
On Mac OS X, with Firefox Samus blinks both on 360p and 720p. I don't understand why it works differently in Windows. With Chrome the sprite blinks in 360p in the same way, and in 720p60 it blinks significantly faster, and all movement is visibly smoother (which isn't surprising; in other words, the 60Hz version is working as it should).
This sounds about right; the current position is that YouTube only supports 60fps in Chrome. That someone reported it working in IE is unusual given the fact that Google and Microsoft are supposed to be competitors on that front and 60fps YouTube is a fairly recent thing. I'll test my desktop in Debian Jessie here momentarily as well as the alternate machine I've got here.
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?