Post subject: Spyro 2: Season of Flame
Player (163)
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Season of Flame is one of the isometric Spyro games for the GBA, a sequel to Attack of the Rhynocs which EgxHB has already done a run for. Similarly to that game, it'll be great for a TAS because you can charge around everywhere, and the routing will be really interesting as you have to choose 75 firefiles to unlock the last level. It's a game I've always wanted to TAS at some point. To practice, I made a test-run that blindly followed the WR route by Ongnissim (actually an old route of his, as he found some newer tricks recently): Link to video It can obviously be improved, as I got better as the run went on (which was the whole point of making the run). Also I'm sure a TAS would take some different routing choices. For example, the firefly from hunter's tutorial at the start is a reliable one for a real-time run, but a TAS could probably get a riskier one more quickly. I intend to plumb the depths of this game in the future, looking for any other tricks that could be used and fully exploring the different routing options. Has anyone else played with this game?
Yadra121
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Nice work so far. It is a pleasure to see optimized movement in this game. Since you improved your game knowledge during the TAS, and with the recent changes, I am not sure what to point out, except for the Intro Skip . There are some minor things I noticed, but most will probably be obsolete due to the new route, so yeah. Imps are definitely a thing for TAS, I have a consistent and fast console strat for the first one in Shamrock, and the second one should be rather easy for TAS as well. Not sure about Gypsy though. Other than that, really cool work, I especially like the Thief mini game where you reached the portal before Sparx talks to Spyro, and the entrance to Ripto lol. If you have any questions, I might be of assistance, since I run this game (100% though) and also found some glitches and tricks (like Intro Skip or the Quick Ripto kill) Oh, and there is this rather bizarre glitch which vomits pixels. I never really analyzed it in a constructive way, but I doubt it has any uses (except for graphical issues and potential game file deletion lol): Link to video
Player (163)
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Posts: 62
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Ahaha! Well I'll have to play around with that and see if it's helpful, but as you said, it's probably just an entertaining but useless glitch. As for the intro skip, unfortunately for a TAS we tend to start with clean SRAM (i.e. no existing files). Assuming I've not misunderstood how the trick works, it wouldn't be possible in a TAS because you need a save file to delete. So unless it can be activated without an existing file I'll have to play through the intro normally... Oh well.
Yadra121
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Awww, I figured this might be the reason. It requires a file, so no Intro Skip then :< Skipping the intro itself doesn't save that much time, but it allows a convenient Game Over warp right at the end of Country Farms. But well, nope.
EgixBacon
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Okay... I've just watched through the test run, and I'd say it's pretty entertaining. The only real problem I have with it is that you're always falling off edges instead of jumping. If AotR's physics can be applied to this game as well, then you should avoid edge-falling whenever you're traversing steps or ledges, because it slows you down. Otherwise, this game could make for an awesome run if we fully optimised it.
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Player (163)
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Location: England
Cheers EgxHB, that's good to know. I imagine the physics are identical between games, so anything you can point out will be very helpful. I've test TASed the imps, as suggested, and yeah, they're definitely worth it: Link to video The times are approximate, since I'm sure they can be done faster, but they're already quicker than some of the other fireflies on the route:
Section               Fireflies    Frames(approx.)   Frames per Firefly

Shamrock Isle Imps        2           1900            950
Gypsy Road Imps           2           2600           1300

Moon Fondue               3           3200           1067
Winter Mesa               4           4800           1200

Hunter Jumping Tutorial   1           1400           1400
Temple of Dune Thief      1           1450           1450
What do these times mean? Well I originally thought cutting out a level entirely would be best, and I could do all 4 imps instead of the ToD thief and Moon Fondue and save ~150 frames, or do them instead of Winter Mesa and save ~300 frames, but that turns out not to be worth it. The better option is to find some individual fireflies that are more out of the way and take them out of the route instead. Doing the Shamrock Imps instead of Hunter's jumping tutorial and the ToD thief will already save ~950 frames, and I expect there are a couple of others in the run that are similarly slow. I just need to find two which together have an average of greater than 1300 frames and it will be worth doing the Gypsy Road imps instead of them. Off the top of my head, the fireflies remaining in the route that are slowest are perhaps the haystacks in Country Farms, or one of the sets of torches in Tiki Tropics, or killing all the rhynocs in Watertopia. The next thing I'll do will be to test run those levels (and others) with and without the slow firefly to see how much time it would save to skip them. Then we can work towards an idea of what the optimal route is.
Yadra121
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Nice Imps. I just remembered one thing: It once happened to me in Gypsy Road that I finished the first Imp game and got 2 fireflies, skipping the second game. I think what happened was that as I froze the last Imp, it unfroze one of the others, so the game wanted to trigger the warp back, but I immediately froze it again, so I basically finished the mini game twice. Sadly I do not have a recording of it, but I think this is what happened.
Player (163)
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Yadra121 wrote:
...I finished the first Imp game and got 2 fireflies, skipping the second game.
Ha, that's awesome! And yeah, your analysis of how it happened is right. I've been able to replicate it by freezing the last imp just as it unfreezes another, and it does give you both fireflies! Unfortunately it it isn't possible for Shamrock Isle. You can activate the glitch, and Sparx tells you you've completed the game twice, but you aren't awarded both fireflies and so have to do he minigame again anyway. Still, this means the Gypsy Road fireflies are a lot faster than before, so if there was any doubt about whether they were worth adding to the route then that's gone now. I'm still working on testing the times for some of the other slow fireflies, since there's now four that can be removed from the original route. I think I'll also test out some of the fireflies that would be too tricky in real-time but could potentially be faster. I'm thinking specifically of the ones needing lightning breath in Moon Fondue, but there may be others.
Yadra121
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Sick, you could reproduce it. This is really cool~ Good luck with finding the fastest fireflies, this seems like quite some work. (One reason I do 100% instead of any% haha)
Player (163)
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I've worked out some more rough timings for the slower possible fireflies:
Section                 Fireflies    Frames(approx.)   Frames per Firefly 

Hunter Jumping Tutorial       1           1400           1400
Country Farms Haystacks       1           1375           1375
Temple of Dune Thief          1           1450           1450
Tiki Tropics Round Torches    1           2100           2100
Watertopia Enemies            1           1400           1400
Moon Fondue Beacons + Radars  2           3000           1500
I've also made a video comparing the routes with and without each of the fireflies, to better demonstrate the time difference and because I always find comparison videos kind of fun. Link to video Since the 4 fireflies from the imps are now clearly worth getting, you'd only need one of all of these possible fireflies. The quickest seems to be the haystacks, but the time is so similar to the time for Hunter's Jumping Tutorial and the Watertopia enemies that I can't be sure just yet. I'll have to spend more time optimising each of those levels with and without the firefly before I'm confident that skipping the Haystacks saves the most time. I can at least rule out the other possibilities completely, which is a shame, since I think they're all pretty cool looking fireflies. I especially enjoyed TASing the lightning breath stuff on Moon Fondue, even if it's clear that it'll never be in an any% run. I also don't think there are any other fireflies in the game that are even close to being worth it, so I feel like we're pretty near to the final list of 75 fireflies for any%. Of course there's one slight issue with getting the Gypsy Road imps, which is that you now won't have enough fireflies to unlock Moon Fondue when you first reach it, but it shouldn't be too difficult to adjust the route through Starry Plains to go to Dreamy Castle first. It'll definitely still be worth it considering how quick the imps are, especially with the combine trick.
Player (163)
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Potentially useful glitch I found: Link to video Taken from the video description:
I don't know if this has been discovered before. It's a neat glitch where you can run around the edge of the map if you glide off the right side of the screen while holding the charge button. You have to be facing up-right to do it, and a lot of the time you'll just fall into the water, so it's probably too inconsistent to do live. It seems to lift you to a really high height, because when you jump back onto the screen you are very high up, and if you run around to underneath the map then you can run over the top of everything for a bit without interacting with it, before eventually falling and landing on the actual map (shown here on Shamrock Isle). Unfortunately, despite how cool it looks, I don't think there are actually that many uses for it in a speedrun. I might be able to get up to Country Farms or Ripto's Volcano a bit faster, but I can't think of any bigger use for it. What's really annoying is that it would have loads of uses if only you could jump off the left side of the screen, but it only works on the right side...
Yadra121
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Yeah, this has been "discovered" several times by several people, but yeah, no real use I guess. I was told it could be useful in Dreamy Castle (dash to the right from the spawn), but only for 100% so yeah... Also I am not completely sure if it only works from the right, but maybe I am mixing things up.
EgixBacon
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Yadra121 wrote:
Yeah, this has been "discovered" several times by several people, but yeah, no real use I guess.
I'd just like to point out that it's also possible in AotR's tutorial level, but, again, I haven't found any real use for it in that case. <offtopic>It might have some applications in AotR 100%</offtopic> but to me it just seems like a glitch that LOOKS game-breaking, but really isn't.
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EgxHB wrote:
It just seems like a glitch that LOOKS game-breaking, but really isn't.
Ha, I agree, aren't those always the most annoying! I've done some more tests and I can actually only find one place this could be useful. It saves ~60 frames to get up to County Farms with this trick. I tried it in a lot of other places and none of them were worth it. The closest was getting up to Ripto's Volcano from Gypsy Road, which was a lot faster with this trick but it required you to collect one of the fireflies in the middle of Starry Plains earlier, and the time that takes made it end up with a net loss of ~50 frames. Also yeah, I guess I'm a bit late to the party when it comes to glitches in this game. I've also never actually played AotR (or Season of Ice, for that matter), so if there are any other glitches in those games anyone can think of, I'd be interested to know. Even if they also end up not having much use!
Yadra121
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Two things that come to mind are "cutscene walking" and nullifying effects of CS. When you open the map just as a text cs is started you will see the text on the map screen and can walk around after closing it, with the text still active. Link to video This also happens with the textbox of the guy at the end of the escort in Winter Mesa and the one when you fail the cake mini game. More interesting: When you pause as an event is triggered, you can completely nullify it. In 100% it is used to skip the dialogue whenever you visit a Sheila stage for the first time (even though it only saves like 3 or 4 seconds over the entire run). An example would be this video Link to video Interestingly enough, the result can vary depending on when you pause. It can also happen that you prevent the game from removing the milk jars once the game is done and they stay until you leave the area. Another example in country farms: When you enter the "fight" to get your fire breath back, you can nullify the first CS. It will be played once you defeat the magician and thus makes it impossible to get your fire breath back due to the fact the trigger for the 2nd CS has already been used to trigger the 1st one. It is possible to skip the dialogue after boss fights, but this will also skip the upgrades you get (destroying boulders, health upgrade, warp). This makes it useless for 100% since you have to destroy boulders in later stages (and the firefly from hunter, which also makes it useless for any%). Not sure about Gulp and Ripto, I have never tested it on them I guess. Skipping the health upgrade wouldn't be a problem (for TAS at least, I like being able to take another hit in RTA), and the warp ability is also never used lol. Then again, I am not sure how much time it saves, but definitely worth checking for TAS. I hope this is all correct, it's been a while and my brain is a big mess of too many information that come and go.
Player (163)
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Cheers for the details Yadra. I'd actually watched your videos before, but I hadn't realised that the pause trick could be used for more than just that milk game (and Sheila levels). I'll definitely have to look into it!
Yadra121 wrote:
Another example in country farms: When you enter the "fight" to get your fire breath back, you can nullify the first CS. It will be played once you defeat the magician and thus makes it impossible to get your fire breath back due to the fact the trigger for the 2nd CS has already been used to trigger the 1st one.
Ha, I'd actually found a way to achieve a similar thing: by gliding into the water as you kill the enemy (very tricky!) you can skip the 2nd cutscene, and when you get back to that part of the level the exit and firefly are both there (but even though you can get the firefly, you don't have fire breath, so again it would never be useful!)
Yadra121 wrote:
It is possible to skip the dialogue after boss fights
This sounds useful, but I can't seem to get it to work. At what point do you have to pause? For me, with Crush he just gets stuck waving his arms in the air and you have to restart the level, and for both Gulp and Ripto I can't skip the text at all. I had actually worked out an alternate way of skipping all the dialogue after Gulp (since the extra health is not needed), by killing him while there's a rocket chasing you and you have zero health, and then dying from the rocket just as the cutscene starts. You respawn with the exit already there and you can just run into it. I'm pretty sure that's quicker than going through all the dialogue, but if you could just skip it by pausing as you suggest then that would probably be even faster.
Yadra121
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Eh, maybe I am mixing things up and you can only skip the fairy dialogue? It's been a while and all I remeber is that I skipped the upgrade to destroy boulders. I can look into it again but I dare to say that you are more qualified to judge with your TAS skills lol.
Player (163)
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You can skip the boulder upgrade (and health and warp) by exiting the level when the dialogue starts at the end of the boss battle. This returns you to the overworld you were in before, but you don't have to do the boss the next time you travel through the gate. Could this be what you were thinking of? This method is slower than doing it normally though, because you have to sit through 1 extra loading screen. I'll keep playing around, but I haven't yet found any other way of skipping the dialogue/upgrades.
Yadra121
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Oh, this sounds familiar. Having one extra loading screen. Guess that was the reason I gave up on that. I assume a Game Over warp would put you back into the prior overworld? In any case, I mixed some things up and I am pretty sure your analysis is correct.
Player (163)
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Yadra121 wrote:
I assume a Game Over warp would put you back into the prior overworld?
Yeah, unfortunately. One other thing you can do is manually save after killing the boss and then quit the game and reload, which puts you in the boss level with the boss dead and the exit gate already there, skipping all the dialogue, but unsurprisingly that takes longer than just listening to the dialogue normally. I guess if you were doing a low% run... :P I've discovered another small timesaver which I might as well post here: Link to video From the video description:
During the Dreamy Castle gauntlet-skip it's possible to cancel the Background Music. It remains silent until the next time you open the menu. The way you do it is by pressing start to open the menu as you are gliding towards the end-zone. While the screen fades to black, Spyro hits the end-zone, which stops the menu opening and instead ends the challenge. However because the BGM was stopped by pressing start (since the game thought it would instead be playing the menu music), the game gets confused and never re-starts it. This isn't just cosmetic. Because the screen is already fading out when you hit the end-zone (and it has to fade out to finish the challenge anyway), it saves ~20 frames over just gliding into the finish normally. So ~40 frames in total since you do the gauntlet twice. The timing is precise but it could be attempted RTA - it's only a small timesaver, but there's no reason not to try and you'll know if you've managed it because the music will stop. Just don't press start too early because then you will actually open the menu before you reach the end-zone, which will just waste time.
Yadra121
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Oh this is neat, because Dreamy Castle is so laggy lol Does the music retrigger after a death? If not, it would be quite helpful to reduce lag. (For RTA runs we agreed to not disable music, but if it's by a technique within the game and only for this stage, I would highly welcome it). Also, not helpful, but disabling music in Sheila stages works as well by pausing (prob on a certain frame) when dying (I think somewhere around before the screen fades out, similar to this). Now, I wonder if that works with Spyro deaths as well?
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You can do it with Spyro deaths, but you have to trigger it by first opening the menu as you get hit or fall in water, then closing the menu, and then timing the next button press correctly just before the screen fades black. (This is similar to how you activate that 'pixel vomiting' trick, just when you have another life so you won't game-over). Since it takes opening and closing the menu, it almost certainly isn't worth it.
Yadra121 wrote:
Does the music retrigger after a death?
No, it stays disabled until you open the menu or exit the level. And I agree with you about the music settings. Since entertainment is the primary goal I wouldn't want to have no music throughout the entire run even if it did reduce lag, but glitching it off temporarily is arguably even more entertaining. I personally find the lack of music has a weird eerie vibe to it, especially with the birds chirping in the background!
Yadra121
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DaJaWi wrote:
Since it takes opening and closing the menu, it almost certainly isn't worth it.
Ah yeah, that doesn't sound helpful.
DaJaWi wrote:
I personally find the lack of music has a weird eerie vibe to it, especially with the birds chirping in the background!
I agree~ Gonna try to implement that into RTA runs.
Player (163)
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Okay, I've been busy for quite some time, but I'm now finally able to get started on a complete TAS of this game. I currently have a WIP containing the first two levels (Country Farms and Shamrock Isle): Link to video There are a few route changes to mention: - Hunter's Jumping Tutorial is done instead of the Country Farms haystacks, due to a new trick found by Ongnissim where you can fall into the water after talking to Hunter for each jump, making the camera follow you instead of him. You still have to wait for him to do the jumps, but you don't then have to wait for the camera to move back to Spyro afterwards, which make it ~150 frames faster, and is therefore ~120 frames quicker than doing the haystacks. - In Shamrock Isle the edge running trick can be used to get to the imp minigame door more efficiently. This leaves two fountains to get at the end of the level after returning the horseshoe (instead of on the old way to the imps). This new route is ~200 frames faster than the old one. There are also a couple of small optimisations I could mention: - When collecting each firefly you can travel some extra distance by gliding as you collect it (because usually you are forced to be stationary when the 'collecting' animation plays). This gliding trick is also used in certain other situations, such as when encountering the Rhynoc at the end of country farms or when freezing the last imp in the freeze tag minigames. - On the route from Country Farms to Shamrock Isle (after quitting and reloading to warp to the game spawn point) I intentionally avoid collecting any gems, which shortens the next loading screen (because your gems are tallied up in a slow animation). In general the difference between some gems and a lot of gems is negligible, and not worth taking a detour over, but if you can get 0 gems without too big a detour then it is probably worth doing, because this skips the tallying animation entirely. Next up are Temple of Dune and Tiki Tropics, neither of which I am convinced I have the optimal route for yet, so they will take a bit more experimentation.
EgixBacon
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Niiiiice! Has it really been six months? Wow. Awesome work so far, can't wait to see more!
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