I have attempted to discuss this in private with the primary administrator, but the only responses I got were a dismissal, and a suggestion to discuss it in public, even though I would have really wanted to discuss it in private.
Some time ago I sent the primary administrator a complaint about a staff member insulting me and being quite hostile towards me. I do not think this is appropriate behavior, especially from a higher-ranking staff member. It doesn't matter whether he was performing any staff duties in that conversation or not. (More on that below.)
I think my complaint was handled quite inappropriately. Not only was it completely dismissed with a short reply, what is worse, behind the scenes the primary administrator then either forwarded it or told in detail about it to this staff member, who then proceeded to send me a somewhat hostile, if not even mocking, remark about it (with enough detail to make it clear that he either had read it, or told in detail about it.) I was not informed of this by the primary administrator.
My subsequent attempt at discussing this in private has been ignored, with no responses whatsoever. Which, once again, I find quite inappropriate, especially from the primary administrator.
I don't think what I'm asking is unreasonable, especially for a site that's relatively as big, reputable and known as this one:
- A bit more of diplomacy and professionalism from staff members, when they are acting within the website.
- Formal complaints sent to the primary administrator to be taken a bit more seriously and with professionalism.
- Such formal complaints, sent in private, to be handled with a reasonable degree of confidentiality.
- The complainant's messages not being blatantly ignored.
As for the question of whether a staff member should be allowed to insult people and be hostile towards them, even when they are not doing "staff duty", I would posit that they should not.
By accepting the role of a staff member, especially a higher-ranking one, you are taking a responsibility to represent the site, and work towards benefiting it and not mar its reputation. It makes little difference whether you are doing "staff duty" or not, the mere fact that you are a staff member means that your actions within the site reflect the attitudes of the site.
Assume that you went into a restaurant, and a waiter were really rude and hostile towards you. This would obviously give you a rather bad image of said restaurant. Now suppose you make a complaint about that waiter to the restaurant's manager. If the manager just answered with "he was on a break, he wasn't representing the restaurant", that would not actually help at all. In fact, on the contrary: It would give an even worse image of the restaurant, as even the managers don't care what their employees are doing within the premises of the restaurant, if they are "on a break".
Sure, on a website it may not as bad as that. However, I still posit that the mere fact of someone being a staff member bestows a duty of representing said site when acting within it. A bit of diplomacy never hurt anybody.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Warp wrote:
Congratulations Samsara, you turned a thread made in remembrance of a great person into a pile of trash by acting like a complete asshole. I hope you are happy about yourself and your perceived higher moral ground.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Warp wrote:
A bit of diplomacy never hurt anybody.
It is seriously ironic that you're saying this considering how you've been acting on the forums, yourself. Have you ever considered that the things you say here aren't exactly putting you in good favor with anyone on the site? Are you capable of taking responsibility for your words and realizing that, just maybe, you might be the problem?
What I quoted was perfectly reasonable of me to do. You're not treating us with any respect. Is there any need for us to continue treating you with respect? Would that make you stop calling us assholes and dictators, or are you just going to claim that and never put it into practice?
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Is there a forum equivalent to vaguebooking? Because the original post reads a lot like vaguebooking.
As a forum moderator who has tried (once) to reach out to you in an attempt at moderation, only to receive vitriol in response, I am not terribly surprised that anyone in a position of authority here would take your complaints with a grain of salt, or to start from a position of relative dismissal.
I would strongly suggest that you change your attitude toward the fora in general if you want the staff to change their attitude toward you.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Well the problem here is that we don't know the context of the argument. So this discussion is a bit pointless unless we know about it, which we don't.
I'm not saying forum moderation should not be taken seriously, but the CONTEXT of the rudeness is pretty key.
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter
- some loser
Well the problem here is that we don't know the context of the argument. So this discussion is a bit pointless unless we know about it, which we don't.
I'm not saying forum moderation should not be taken seriously, but the CONTEXT of the rudeness is pretty key.
I sent him a private message, and he responded with insults and a very hostile attitude. I did not insult him. I just asked him for something reasonable. His insults were completely uncalled for.
But that doesn't matter, and it isn't the point of my post. My point is that the primary administrator handled my formal complaint inappropriately. My point is also that allowing high-ranking staff members to engage in insults and hostile behavior against visitors when acting within the site as long as they are not "doing staff duty" should not be an official policy.
I know that some staff members hate me. That makes zero difference. Insults and hostility, no matter what the context, are inappropriate. In this particular case, in addition, it was completely uncalled for; it's not like he was just responding to my insults to him, because I did not insult or attack him.
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Well Warp, while I do agree with you that it's not right for anybody in this community to be treated by another (whether higher-ranking or otherwise) in a hostile or insulting manner -- I've gotta be rather upfront with you in saying that you should apply some of that critique to yourself.
Of course you probably know that I'm referring to one of my off-topic threads that recently got grue'd due to your very own persistent hostility towards. I understand that you (and others) thought that the subject was ridiculous. That's fine. But instead of expressing your opinion on it and leaving it at that, you kept at it and escalated until one of the staff members had to step in and lock it.
So Warp, to wrap up my thoughts on this matter, I just want to say that I've got no hard feelings toward you, but I do believe that you need to take an objective look at your own behavior.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
What you deem 'reasonable' and what others deem 'reasonable' seem to be at odds with one another, for example, the thread that ars4326 is referencing.
Again, while providing as little detail as possible, this seems more like a one-sided airing of frustration (and vaguebooking) and not hoping for actual discussion.
(As for personally hating you, I don't, but you certainly aren't endearing yourself to me either.)
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
So Warp, to wrap up my thoughts on this matter, I just want to say that I've got no hard feelings toward you, but I do believe that you need to take an objective look at your own behavior.
I'm not saying I have always acted in an impeccable manner. But my past behavior on the forum should not be an excuse for the primary administrator to handle a formal complaint poorly, for my (very formal and polite) messages to him being ignored, or for staff members insulting people being just accepted, no matter who the person being insulted may be, especially when the insults were quite uncalled for.
Once again, I don't think that what I'm asking is in any way unreasonable: A bit of diplomacy and professionalism from site staff.
Again, while providing as little detail as possible, this seems more like a one-sided airing of frustration (and vaguebooking) and not hoping for actual discussion.
My intent is seriously not to try to mar or attack said staff member (which is why I haven't even mentioned who he is.) My complaint is about site policies and attitudes.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Warp wrote:
especially when the insults were quite uncalled for.
Define insults uncalled for, and also give examples of insults called for. I'm very interested.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
My intent is seriously not to try to mar or attack said staff member (which is why I haven't even mentioned who he is.) My complaint is about site policies and attitudes.
I can appreciate not wanting to name names, but by neglecting to post specifics, no context can be gleaned about the situation. Which means that no meaningful discussion can happen. It's "I said ... I was told" without the other party responding.
Warp wrote:
Once again, I don't think that what I'm asking is in any way unreasonable: A bit of diplomacy and professionalism from site staff.
Once again, I don't think that what I was asking is in any way unreasonable:
Invariel wrote:
I would strongly suggest that you change your attitude toward the fora in general if you want the staff to change their attitude toward you.
I know such change won't happen overnight, but you making such an effort will encourage others to do the same.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
especially when the insults were quite uncalled for.
Define insults uncalled for, and also give examples of insults called for. I'm very interested.
If I had sent him a private message with insults and verbal attacks, I would have been more understanding of being responded in kind. I would not have even issued the complaint. However, I did not do that.
The disagreement we previously had, and what I asked in the private message, was not deserving of being outright insulted. It was quite inappropriate behavior.
But, once again, it's not the only thing I have a problem with here. My major problem is how my formal complaint was handled, and what the attitude of the site towards this kind of behavior is. Even if the insults had been just responding in kind, my complaint to the primary administrator should still have been taken with more seriousness and professionalism.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Warp wrote:
Not only was it completely dismissed with a short reply, what is worse, behind the scenes the primary administrator then either forwarded it or told in detail about it to this staff member, who then proceeded to send me a somewhat hostile, if not even mocking, remark about it (with enough detail to make it clear that he either had read it, or told in detail about it.) I was not informed of this by the primary administrator.
This might shock you, but there's a whole hidden staff subforum, where we always tell each other ugly things about community members. We're bad people, we need to do this regularly.
So yeah, how dares staff discuss community related matters with each other. No way!
Warp wrote:
- A bit more of diplomacy and professionalism from staff members, when they are acting within the website.
- Formal complaints sent to the primary administrator to be taken a bit more seriously and with professionalism.
- Such formal complaints, sent in private, to be handled with a reasonable degree of confidentiality.
- The complainant's messages not being blatantly ignored.
There's a guy called Billy. He is obsessed with visiting the forum once in a while, under different accounts, and posting nonsense. He's probably not deadly damaging, but stably pointless and disruptive. I don't remember what he was banned for in the first place, but this is an example of a borderline for diplomacy and professionalism towards every person in the world. If a person does not want to start taking his own actions seriously and responsibly, he has no right to accuse anyone else in not taking him seriously. Sure, there's a default friendly attitude given to members that haven't acted disruptively, but there's a way for a member to change this attitude into worse, and if it happens, the least responsibility that person could take is when he accuses others in that fact. Just because it helps no one.
Warp wrote:
As for the question of whether a staff member should be allowed to insult people and be hostile towards them, even when they are not doing "staff duty", I would posit that they should not.
I think it cannot be judged as yes/no. It depends, just like with our favorite Fair Use terms. If a staff member insults you when you meet him on the street in person, should he be punished site-wise? If it happens via PM? If it happens on public forum? If it actually concerns site handling? I don't think these are all equal. But in all these cases, the first thing to weigh is reasonability of the actions, not just their tone. And this is again when it comes to looking for a reason in oneself. I tried that, see how many people actually posted bad things to consider.
PS: I wonder how many people think derailing a thread to the point of locking it is fine.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warp, if you want any meaningful discussion out of this, you need to disclose what your complaint was. At this point in time, nobody is willing to believe you or what you say. The site's sympathy is nearly entirely with the administration, and you only have yourself to thank for this. Otherwise, this topic amounts to nothing more than whining about nothing.
The actual complaint I'm making in this thread is still unaddressed. Most of the responses have been, essentially, defending the hostile behavior and insults, and the improper handling of formal complaints, if the person being insulted is unlikeable.
feos wrote:
PS: I wonder how many people think derailing a thread to the point of locking it is fine.
Is this official policy? If someone "derails threads to the point of being locked", then that person is free to be insulted by staff members, and his formal complaints to the primary administrator ignored?
You seem to be missing the point.
So let me ask once again: Should it be acceptable for staff members, when acting within the site, to be hostile towards visitors and insult them? Is it ok for the primary administrator to mishandle and dismiss formal complaints about staff members, and to just outright ignore such formal messages sent to him?
Would you be willing to write that explicitly into the site rules? If not, then perhaps a revision in attitudes ought to be in place. Especially since tasvideos.org is a relatively reputable and well-known site.
Once again: A bit of diplomacy never hurt anybody. I don't think what I'm asking is unreasonable.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Warp wrote:
feos wrote:
PS: I wonder how many people think derailing a thread to the point of locking it is fine.
Is this official policy? If someone "derails threads to the point of being locked", then that person is free to be insulted by staff members, and his formal complaints to the primary administrator ignored?
You seem to be missing the point.
Thanks for putting words I didn't say in my mouth and telling me how bad they are. You're entirely not missing the point at all.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
The actual complaint I'm making in this thread is still unaddressed.
The actual complaint you're making is still not made.
Warp wrote:
Most of the responses have been, essentially, defending the hostile behavior and insults, and the improper handling of formal complaints, if the person being insulted is unlikeable.
And asking you to post details so that a better understanding of the situation can be reached, noting that while you continue to provide no information, all people can infer from is your past behaviour, since you won't even name the person you had the conversation with.
Warp wrote:
feos wrote:
PS: I wonder how many people think derailing a thread to the point of locking it is fine.
Is this official policy? If someone "derails threads to the point of being locked", then that person is free to be insulted by staff members, and his formal complaints to the primary administrator ignored?
No, the unofficial policy is closer to, "If someone derails threads to the point of being locked, we warn the user, and then progressively get closer to (temporarily) banning them.
Warp wrote:
You seem to be missing the point.
You seem to be missing the conversation.
Warp wrote:
So let me ask once again: Should it be acceptable for staff members, when acting within the site, to be hostile towards visitors and insult them?
That depends entirely on what you mean by "visitor". Someone who has a couple of posts, but has lurked around for a while, and hasn't made any waves, asking a question of an administrator and being shot down? Probably not a good decision, PR-wise. Someone who has been around for a while, and has been a constant nuisance complaining that someone is annoying them? Maybe dismissed.
Warp wrote:
Is it ok for the primary administrator to mishandle and dismiss formal complaints about staff members, and to just outright ignore such formal messages sent to him?
Is it okay for the person writing the "formal" messages to be a disruptive influence to the community on a regular basis, stepping gingerly on the line between outright troll and passive nuisance? Again, what your question lacks is context, the thing that previous posts have asked for.
Warp wrote:
Would you be willing to write that explicitly into the site rules? If not, then perhaps a revision in attitudes ought to be in place. Especially since tasvideos.org is a relatively reputable and well-known site.
To write what? That people who behave poorly might not receive the nicest responses from site staff? I thought that was implied in any community.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Warp, if you want any meaningful discussion out of this, you need to disclose what your complaint was.
I think I described my complaint quite clearly in my original post.
And as I said there, I really just wanted to discuss this with the primary administrator in private, and I clearly told him several times so. I suggested that I could make a public thread about it, but would prefer to discuss it in private, and he said he'd prefer the public discussion, and my subsequent message to him explaining why I would really prefer a private conversation was ignored. (As I mentioned earlier, my messages to him were extremely formal and polite. I don't think they deserved to be ignored.)
He can defend is actions, and those of that staff member in question, if he wants to.
Hey Warp post what the private conversation was about, and stop ignoring like 10 people saying you need to reveal exactly what was said.
If he wants to post the conversation in public, he can do so. I am not trying to attack him. If he wants to remain anonymous, I will fully respect that. I think I made it quite clear in my original post what exactly my problem is.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I'll actually state what I was implying in my previous post. Derailing one thread is not good, but it's tolerable, it just happens, people have weaknesses. If it happens continuously over a decade, it isn't going to be a thing one would be loved for. But it's still kinda tolerable, since it's not too damaging.
Now consider this situation. There's a crime one does, there's a judgment he gets in the court. And he disagrees with that judgment, and makes an appeal, telling "yes, I did it, and it deserves some measures towards me, but I believe they were condemned inappropriately, so here's my appeal". Makes sense? Yes.
But when one doesn't consider he did that crime in the first place, or even doesn't bother to address it, like it never happened, and the judgment was entirely phoney, regardless of constant proof, this isn't the approach that is leading that person anywhere at all.
In other words, yes, there might have been improper treatment. But when the entire grounds for it are completely ignored, this becomes talking to one's reflection in the mirror, where every absurd one says is being agreed upon by all means. I call that ignorance and keep thinking that ignorance is slavery.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warp, if you want any meaningful discussion out of this, you need to disclose what your complaint was.
I think I described my complaint quite clearly in my original post.
And as I said there, I really just wanted to discuss this with the primary administrator in private, and I clearly told him several times so. I suggested that I could make a public thread about it, but would prefer to discuss it in private, and he said he'd prefer the public discussion, and my subsequent message to him explaining why I would really prefer a private conversation was ignored. (As I mentioned earlier, my messages to him were extremely formal and polite. I don't think they deserved to be ignored.)
He can defend is actions, and those of that staff member in question, if he wants to.
I think you misunderstood my post, so I'm gonna ask you one more time. I will also add emphasis to the parts I think you should pay attention to, since you seem to miss them otherwise.
Can you STOP. BEING. SO. VAGUE. ABOUT. EVERYTHING???
Great. So you have a complaint about the staff, about how an earlier complaint of yours was handled. Nobody knows what your ORIGINAL complaint was or whether it was in any way JUSTIFIED. It is on YOU to PROVE it was.
At several points before, you have proven yourself and your demands to be utterly INANE and POINTLESS. I, and I would assume most other people here, have plenty of reason to believe that this also applied to your original complaint, which is why it was handled by the staff in the way that is was. Nobody really cares.
Tell us what your ORIGINAL complaint was AND how it was handled by the staff. ONLY then can we begin to resolve things.
OKAY???
/Edit:
I also understand if you want to keep discretion and thus keep it vague. This is not going to help you. Just let it all out. Okay?
