Post subject: Mario Party 5
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Thing is that particular minigame doesn't save the best achieved score. But I added it for now. I'll take a look at Triple Jump and Story mode later.
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Story mode infos Notes about Mario Party 5 story mode TAS (aiming for fastest realtime): - Apparently, when starting story mode, you can select a minigame pack. Easy, Action, All are good minigame packs. Goofy and Skill are bad minigame packs. See the next post for more details. - You and the 3 minibowsers all start out with 20 coins. When a minibowser loses all his coins, he passes out of the current game. When there are only 2 minibowsers left, a vs-minigame will consist of you + CPU Toad vs them. - If more than 1 minibowser occupies a field and you pass by, you choose one minibowser. You cannot fight both. - On intersections, minibowsers always choose shortest path towards you. - On intersections, minibowsers seem to choose a random direction. (Although it might be biased to go to your direction more often) - Map order: -- first 4 maps are randomly selected after you confirm settings at start (Future, Sweet, Rainbow, Undersea, Toy, Pirate) (It is untested if it selects the full sequence or just one at a time) -- Bowser dream -- Bowser Frightmare minigame - If a minibowser started a duel by crossing your field: -- if he wins, you lose 10 coins. -- if you win, he loses 5 coins. - If you started a duel by crossing a minibowser's field: -- if he wins, you lose 5 coins. -- if you win, he loses 15 coins. - VS field: -- At 3 minibowsers: Loser has to pay 5 coins per opponent. That means you would pay 15, or minibowsers would pay 5 each. -- At 2 minibowsers: Loser has to pay 10 coins per opponent. That means you would pay 20, or minibowsers would pay 10 each. -- At 1 minibowser: Loser has to pay 20 coins to the opponent. - field effects: -- Piranha plant (takes half coins, rounded up to next integer.) -- DK field (if minibowser lands here, reduces minibowser money by half, rounded up to next integer. If you land here, you get 10 coins.) -- Hammerbro (5 coin loss) -- Red Spiny (chooses another player by roulette and steals 5 coins.) -- red fields (3 coin loss) -- Duel (it's as if a minibowser passes you, or as if you pass one.) -- Lakitu (if minibowser lands here, steals a capsule from you. If you land here, (TODO).) -- Mushroom (gives extra die on next turn.) -- Super Mushroom (gives two extra dies on next turn.) -- Poison Mushroom (makes die on next turn have only 1~5.) -- Coinblock (makes you/minibowser gain 10 coins.) -- Klepto (takes you to a minibowser by roulette) -- Green pipe (switches you with a minibowser) -- ... - capsule effects -- Red Spiny (costs 5. chooses another player by roulette and steals 5 coins.) -- Duel (TODO) -- Hammerbro (TODO) -- Lakitu (TODO) -- Kamek (costs 10. Shuffles everyone's capsules.) -- Mushroom (costs 5. Gives extra die.) -- Super Mushroom (costs how much? Gives two extra dies.) -- Piranha plant (TODO) -- Bubble (Costs 10. Advances you 10 fields. Burns other capsules you have) -- Poison Mushroom (TODO) -- Coinblock (Costs 5. Gives 10) -- Klepto (costs 10. Takes you to a minibowser by roulette.) -- Green Pipe (TODO) -- ... - Bowser effects -- Makes a red field into a bowser field. -- ... Minigames list Minigame ratings express how useful they are from a story mode TAS standpoint. Good rating means they can probably be completed fast and bad rating means they waste a ton of time. If I were to make the TAS, I would probably not go optimize it too much (like, I don't care if one minigame is 2 seconds faster than the other. It's too much work to find out). But I would like to avoid the minigames that obviously take longer than the other ones. ## 1vs3 - "Flatiator" GOOD 1 player rides ball, tries to flatten other 3. 45 seconds, stop if all 3 are dead - "Revolving Fire" GOOD 1 player in middle tries to burn 3 players around him. 30 seconds, stops if all 3 are dead - "Heat Stroke" GOOD 1 player pounds platforms away where the 3 others stand. 30 seconds, stops if all 3 are dead - "Big Top Drop" GOOD 1 player tries to hit other 3 players on rope by throwing balls. 30 seconds, stops if all 3 have fallen - "Tube it or Lose it" GOOD/DECENT/MEH 1 player in spiked ring tries to touch other 3 players in a snow race. Hasn't been timed but I think AI behavior can screw you over so be careful. - "Quilt for Speed" DECENT players try to control goomba machines to get into the finish line. takes like 20 sec or something. - "Fight Cards" DECENT 1 player tries to guess what move the other 3 choose. 5 turns and 3 different moves. - "Mario Mechs #1/#2/#3" DECENT/MEH all players are in machines and shoot. 60 seconds, stops if all 3 are dead - "Mathletes" MEH/BAD players gain money by forming mathematical expressions. - "Squared Away" BAD all players are cubes. 1 player tries not to get squsshed by other 3. 30 seconds - "Beam Team" BAD 1 player tries not to get beamed up by other 3 player ufos. 30 seconds - "Curvy Curbs" BAD players try to race to the finish on a bike without touching the side. Takes about 30 sec. ## 2 vs 2 - "Manic Mallets" GOOD players mash to get big mallet to point on other team. 10 seconds - "Bus Buffer" MEH/BAD players try to clean top of a bus. takes like 22 sec or so. - "Clock Stoppers" BAD players try to move clock hands to certain position. Takes a long time... - "ID UFO" BAD players try to find matching ufos by groundpounding takes like 25 sec or so. - "Mario Can-Can" BAD players try to open can by groundpounding alternatedly. takes like 25 sec or so. - "Handy Hoppers" BAD players jump over bar as often as possible. 30 seconds - "Berry Basket" BAD players try to have berries land in their basket. 30 seconds - "Rumble Ready" BAD players try to catch capules by feeling rumble/spotting the "!". takes like 40 sec or so. - "Submarathon" BAD players try to get to finish line underwater. takes like 40 sec or so. - "Defuse or lose" TERRIBLE players try to turn out fuse of big bob omb Can take up to like 50 sec... - "Panic Pinball" TERRIBLE pinball minigame 60 seconds - "Banking Coins" TERRIBLE players on platform jump at pot to gain coins 30 seconds ## 1 vs 1 - "Shock Absorbers" GOOD players try to dodge electrical things moving around the room. 60 seconds, but stops if player is killed - "Countdown Pound" GOOD players try to groundpound on last possible moment 10 seconds - "Blown Away" GOOD shoot at other player to make him fall off the cloud probably doesn't take long. - "Whomp Maze" GOOD players try to get to the other side of the room 30 seconds, but stops when you arrive - "Shy Guy Countdown" GOOD players try to press same button as on sign that the shyguy holds up takes like 10 sec - "Merry Poppings" GOOD make other player fall by shooting at his balloons takes like 10 sec or so I think - "Pound Peril" GOOD find the 1 winning platform to groundpound on. takes like 10 sec - "Get a Rope" GOOD/DECENT players choose a rope. takes like 15~20 sec or so. - "Head Waiter" GOOD/DECENT players throw bowser head back and forth. takes like 15 sec or so. - "Wind Wavers" GOOD/DECENT players mash to get away from tornado. takes like 10 sec, but depends on luck - "Button Mashers" DECENT players try to mash buttons that are shown on blocks that they hold takes like 20 sec or so - "Pump n Jump" DECENT players mash button and jump up in the air. 10 seconds + air time. In total it's like 20 seconds. - "Bound of Music" DECENT players try to hit as many musical notes as possible. 15 seconds + some scoring time. Total ~20 sec. - "Sky Survivor" BAD players fly in the air and try to avoid stuff. takes 30 sec or so. - "Piece Out" TERRIBLE players sort out pieces and gain points. 60 second
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I compared the minigame listing from my previous post with the minigame packs detailed in section 2 here. That gives me the following ratios: ## all 1v1: 10 good, 3 mediocre, 2 shit = 66% (chance to have a good minigame) 1v3: 4 good, 3 mediocre, 4 shit = 36% 2v2: 1 good, 1 mediocre, 10 shit = 8% ## easy 1v1: 8 good, 2 mediocre = 80% 1v3: 4 good, 1 mediocre, 4 shit = 44% 2v2: 1 good, 8 shit = 11% ## action 1v1: 4 good, 1 mediocre = 80% 1v3: 2 good, 1 mediocre, 3 shit = 33% 2v2: 1 good, 1 mediocre, 4 shit = 16% ## skill 1v1: 3 good, 2 shit = 60% 1v3: 2 good, 1 mediocre, 3 shit = 33% 2v2: 6 shit = 0% ## goofy 1v1: 3 good, 2 mediocre = 60% 1v3: 1 good, 2 mediocre, 3 shit = 16% 2v2: 1 good, 5 shit = 20% easy > action > all > goofy > skill You can probably avoid having 2vs2 minigames altogether, which makes "easy" the minigame pack that should be chosen for a story mode TAS that aims for fastest realtime, assuming luck behavior in the game is difficult to manipulate.
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story mode additional rules: - The first map is chosen after you confirm your settings at the beginning. - The minibowsers' starting points are always the same except on the Future dream (where there are more red fields). The starting points are chosen when transitioning to the map. - The minibowsers' starting points are red fields. - There are no additional red fields except on the Future dream (has 2 more). - 1 DK field is randomly assigned to a free blue field when the map fades in. - When your first turn starts, 6 field effects are randomly chosen and randomly assigned to blue and red fields. This occurence is frame-dependent. - To manipulate minibowser dice rolls, you can pause the game right before. Or when it's your turn, close a dialogue box at a different time. maps: toy strat: roll 10, at intersection take the upper route, beat minibowser on the way. win vs match. he dies. 2 minibowsers left. have those 2 minibowsers then roll so that they both land on same vs field behind you. win both. gg. This strat takes 4 minigames. harder strat: roll 10, at intersection take the upper route, beat minibowser on the way. win vs match. he dies. 2 minibowsers left. have them roll so that they both land on dk field/piranha plant field/red hammerbro field. they both have 8 left. then land on vs field and win. gg. this strat takes 3 minigames. alternative harder strat: roll 10, at intersection take the upper route, beat minibowser on the way. win vs match. he dies. 2 minibowsers left. have them roll so that one lands on vs and the other lands on hammerbro. only one left with 5 coins. you land on spiny and win. stupidly hard strat: land on spiny field. They have 15,20,20. Have them land on dk/piranha. They have 8,10,10. You have to land on another spiny field OR one of them has to land on another piranha field. They have 8,5,10. Have the other 2 land on dk/piranha from before. They have 4,3,5. Win a vs match. gg. This strat takes 1 minigame. future (The bowser kids can start on any red field, not where it says x) sweet rainbow undersea pirate bowser Todo: Find out which maps are best suited for the TAS. Find out best strats and test if they can be reliably done in TAS. A strat worth thinking about is to lose money on purpose and then use goomba capsule to swap money.
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Nice to see your WIP. I hope you manage to do a 1-game board :D For entertainment (probably not speed) I think it would be nice to see a board completed without even any games played It seems there are some items that could result in an 'instant' win: Paratroopa: Function: Takes a random amount (1, 3, 5, 10, 15, 20, or 25) coins from each of your opponents. Bullet Bill: Function: Lets you ride a bullet bill, making whoever you pass lose 30 coins. Cost: 10 coins http://www.gamefaqs.com/gamecube/914970-mario-party-5/faqs/44952
TASes: [URL=http://tasvideos.org/Movies-298up-Obs.html]Mr. Nutz (SNES), Young Merlin 100% (SNES), Animaniacs 100% (SNES)[/URL]
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It seems they removed Paratroopa, Bank and Bullet Bill from story mode. At least I didn't see them appear there yet, after watching dozens of playthrough videos... They also changed numbers (costs and such), hence why I did all the testing. I suppose I could win without any game played but it's luck manipulation hell. Also, it's arguable if it would be any faster: Take my WIP and instead of the 2nd game, I would land on a travel field, have the bowser kids land on red field (4 coins each). Then I land on the same spiny and kill one. Then the last one has to travel onto the piranha plant again (alternatively, use spiny capsule if I had gotten one beforehand). All those field effects take time, making me think playing the 2nd game is faster... Edit: I tested with savestates at a capsule machine for a while. I never got Paratroopa, Bank or Bullet Bill.
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Aha, so I guess the one-shot options are out of the window :D In my opinion Mario Party is the kind of game would benefit from a TAS that's more focused on entertainment than speed, because the story mode will never feel fast anyway. For example creative ways to take coins/lives such as the one without doing mini-games. Or another example would be by manipulating mini-games that are completely broken in a TAS context. I'm not familiar enough with the game to come up with more unfortunately :) Either way good luck and keep going
TASes: [URL=http://tasvideos.org/Movies-298up-Obs.html]Mr. Nutz (SNES), Young Merlin 100% (SNES), Animaniacs 100% (SNES)[/URL]
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i fewl this is the right game in the series to tas for speed,since you don`t have set turns
I plan on TASing whatever simple games you don't want to. TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 100%, bn3456, mmx3 any% psx glitched, pokemon series : colosseum and XD, emerald 7symbols, maximum carnage, mmx command mission mortal kombat series: MK3 new character testing for runs, UMK3, MKT, MKA, MKD and MKDA
Post subject: added new vid, should be up in 60 min
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I managed to save 1143 VI over my WIP. I'm not sure how many seconds that is but comparing video time stamps tells me that I saved 10 seconds. (VI count is at 25047 when faded to black after Dream Clear) Improvements: - I collect a hammerbro capsule and throw it on a red field, and have the 2 minibowsers land on it to finish them, instead of playing the 2nd minigame. - Manipulating the 10&6 dice roll was accomplished much faster (about 3+ sec faster pause screen). - The "Pound Peril" minigame was finished much faster. In my currently uploaded WIP, the minibowser activated a trap which caused the minigame to prolong. But I prevent that from happening now. Link to video It is probably possible to improve the TAS by avoiding the 1st minigame also. But manipulating 3 minibowsers to land on the same field, twice, is much more tedious to manipulate than 2 minibowsers already was. 10^3 = 1000, so the perfect dice roll might occur once every 16.6 seconds or so. So if you make it happen after a 8 sec pause screen or so, it could be called optimal, imo. I'm not sure if I want to do that strategy though. It would also require me to manipulate a different setup for the map (minibowsers and field effects need to be in different places). But if pulled off, it would means another possible 10~20 sec time save.
Post subject: vid is up in 50 mins
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I managed to do what I described in my previous post, and even managed to do it much faster than I expected. 2626 VI saved (VI count is at 22421 after fading to black after Dream Clear). Somehow, this translates to 34 seconds time save over the previous WIP! 30 VI are used* to manipulate minibowser starting points. 34 VI are used** to manipulate piranha plant on red field. Other than that, I don't know how many VI I used elsewhere, but it is like 5 here and 5 there to manipulate my die and a hammerbro capsule. And about 1~2 sec are sacrificed*** for the triple minibowser dice rolls, respectively. VI count is at 16078 when the 6 6 6 numbers are visible on the minibowsers' dice. ___ * when Misstar talks to Toad before the map spawns. ** when minibowsers' final dialogue box opens, before the 1st turn *** at capsule machine dialogue, and by opening pause screen Link to video
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private video,but i'm glad you made it anyway,will you do the same strat all maps?
I plan on TASing whatever simple games you don't want to. TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 100%, bn3456, mmx3 any% psx glitched, pokemon series : colosseum and XD, emerald 7symbols, maximum carnage, mmx command mission mortal kombat series: MK3 new character testing for runs, UMK3, MKT, MKA, MKD and MKDA
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Yes I will probably use the same strat for all maps. But the map layout was very convenient in Future Dream and upcoming maps will require that I use slightly different strats.
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Can't wait to see this completed, it's looking great.
Enter the Matrix is a piece of garbage but I'm gonna finish it if it kills me.
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Simple yet effective strategy, and a nice surprise when you see how it all works out. Good work.
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Somehow, in WIP2 at an intersection, a Minibowser wanted to go a different path so I had to pause to manipulate him. That's what led me to believe they can choose either way. But in Toy Dream, they always want to go the shortest path towards me... I don't understand the mechanism behind that. Also, turns out minibowsers can fail at Spiny roulette and steal cash from themselves. Not useful though. Toy Dream turns out difficult to plan and manipulate. I basicly tested ~400 possible board layouts by now and finally found 1 that could be used. (Testing should be done now. All other DK placements require me to use a switch-places field effect, wasting time. And it doesn't seem possible to win in 2 turns.) [img 865x392]http://i.imgur.com/iI4qCz3.png[/img] Edit: Turn 1, waiting at the intersection 0~300 VI didn't yield the 2 7 6 dice roll.
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I know very little about the game, so this may be a stupid thought; but considering you have strat without mini games; worth switching difficulty from easy to hard? I assume it's basically irrelevant at this point, but from a casual viewer stand point, nothing kills my hype than seeing 'easy' on the tally screen. If it effects something I'm not aware of, then yeah, whatever. Just thought it might be worth considering if it isn't.
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Paused wrote:
I know very little about the game, so this may be a stupid thought; but considering you have strat without mini games; worth switching difficulty from easy to hard? I assume it's basically irrelevant at this point, but from a casual viewer stand point, nothing kills my hype than seeing 'easy' on the tally screen. If it effects something I'm not aware of, then yeah, whatever. Just thought it might be worth considering if it isn't.
i thought about that too when i saw it was possible skipping the minigames too.
I plan on TASing whatever simple games you don't want to. TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 100%, bn3456, mmx3 any% psx glitched, pokemon series : colosseum and XD, emerald 7symbols, maximum carnage, mmx command mission mortal kombat series: MK3 new character testing for runs, UMK3, MKT, MKA, MKD and MKDA
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Please stop making me feel bad about my difficulty choice :/ The only time difficulty matters is in the minigames - and it isn't going to be noticeable anyway - and in the final minigame Frightmare where it basicly gives more Mechabowsers to kill. I argue that it makes Frightmare unnecessarily longer. The RTA community uses Easy as well and I want to stay consistent with them. Frightmare difficulty differences Mechabowsers: There are 20 on Easy. 30 on Hard. Fire rings: The movement starts to differ at the 15 second mark, but you still have to wait 30 seconds anyway. Bowser: Pretty much the same. Hard Bowser might move a little faster, but not confirmed. Final Bowser: Easy Bowser has been seen throwing 4 orbs whereas Hard Bowser only gives 3, though. He has 5 health in both difficulties.
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Some more info, for future reference and if others want to use it: When manipulating (double or triple) dice rolls, you get different RNG by waiting before minibowsers' dice appear, e.g. at a dialogue box or at an intersection. If you wait 1 frame at an intersection and pause for 1 frame at minibowsers' dice roll, you get a different scenario than if you waited 2 frames on either of the two occasions. Due to the game's odd lag frame behavior, you can save time by wasting time beforehand (but you're going to be busy manipulating luck so it isn't a high priority). Waiting at a dialogue box for 1 frame can cause you to reach an upcoming dialogue box ~5 frames sooner, in extreme cases. Also, holding down input keys can cause the game to lag differently, causing RNG to be different or causing time winnings/losses (but again, this is rather negligible but still something worth noting). Lastly, I just realized something interesting. I think dice numbers don't repeat themselves. So you can abuse this when manipulating triple dice rolls and give yourself better odds at getting the perfect roll by pausing right before the final dice numbers appear. The numbers right before the final numbers have to be ones that aren't the ones you are looking for. E.g. if you want 1-5-10, then the numbers before that should be "not 1"-"not 5"-"not 10". This means you actually have a 9^3 chance = 729. The perfect dice roll should appear within 729 frames of trying. (But that's considered very slow by now. You want to do what I described above - do some waiting before pausing at the minibowsers' dice roll in order to get different RNG scenarios. It is possible to get any triple dice roll within 100 delay frames, if not even faster.)
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Paused wrote:
considering you have strat without mini games; worth switching difficulty from easy to hard? [...] nothing kills my hype than seeing 'easy' on the tally screen.
I edited my DTM and it syncs until midway into Toy Dream. So I will look into redoing the remaining part so the run can use Hard difficulty.
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Triple Jump 186.31ft Manic Mallets 999 I'm researching some more minigames before TASing them. Piece Out: - When picking up a piece, there is a timer running from 100 to 0, decrementing every 1~3 frames (I don't know why it varies). When placing a piece, you are rewarded the remaining time as points. - After filling the whole 5x7 field, you are rewarded points depending on how many pieces of the same color you placed. It doesn't matter if they are adjacent. 1 = 100 points 2 = 200 points 3 = 300 points 4 = 400 points 5 = 500 points 6 = 600 points 7 = 700 points 8 = 800 points 9 = 900 points 10 = 1000 points 11 = 1100 points 12 = 1200 points 13 = 1300 points 14 = 1400 points 15 = 1500 points 16 = 1600 points 17 = 1700 points 18 = 6942 points <-- at this point there are only 17 free spaces, so you can only get one big bonus per filled field. 19 = 7328 points 20 = 7714 points 21 = 8100 points 22 = 8485 points 23 = 8871 points 24 = 9257 points 25 = 9642 points 26 = 10028 points 27 = 10414 points 28 = 10800 points 29 = 11185 points 30 = 11571 points 31 = 11957 points 32 = 12342 points 33 = 12728 points 34 = 13114 points 35 = 13500 points - You can luck-manipulate upcoming pieces by pausing. -> The game first decides on a shape, and then on a color. You can pause between this decision-making in order to manipulate pieces. -> The minigame will sometimes attempt to avoid colors if they have been given too much. So if you have 4 or 5 pieces on the conveyor belt of the same color, the next piece will not be the same color, sometimes, regardless what you do. <-- not confirmed. -> Also, the minigame has rules on how many pieces of the same kind can roll on the conveyor belt successively. So for example, you can not get more than 3 1x1 pieces in a row. Panic Pinball: Hit middle brick: 10pt Hit side brick: 20pt Hit Goomba from above: 50pt + start roulette Hit Goomba from below: 50pt + start roulette Roulette, 3x mushroom: 500pt Roulette, 3x fireflower: 1000pt Roulette, 3x starman: 2000pt Through pipe: 200pt 10 bouncer: 10pt 50 bouncer: 50pt 100 bouncer: 100pt Hit Bowser: 100pt + decrement counter When a ball goes into the green pipe, I think it can come out on either side. But this isn't confirmed. All that being said, opponents can help out by decrementing bowser's counter so one side gets extra balls over and over. I'm not going to TAS this minigame because there is very little precision involved. Only a lot of trial and error and with the extra balls, that's something I would rather stay away from. Also the roulette RNG is not consistently manipulable. -------- EDIT: Will Flower 5"13 (2F faster than previous record 5"16) is possible with pause trick. This seems to be the best score possible within the game's limits.