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#5351: TASeditor, MESHUGGAH, CoolKirby, Masterjun, MUGG, was0x's NES Kirby's Adventure "game end glitch" in 00:35.76

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Submission Text Full Submission Page Publication Page

It's this little pink thing again.

Game objectives

Emulator used: FCEUX 2.2.3

Comments

It's an one frame improvement over the published run. The slope clip is improved. Everything else is unchanged. I (TASeditor) tried to improve other things as well by delaying and interupting certaing actions, but it didn't work out due to lag sadly. Here's is an userfile with these tests in second room, just in case.

For non glitched graphics change inputs from TLR to TDLR on last frame.

Now it is 9 frames faster than the current published run, thanks to better lag reduction due to interrupting movement.

First room

Don't interrupting by extending jump height at frame 603, 2 lag frames and 134 subpixel inproved at frame 888 when swallowing. At frame 1069 being 6:224 pixels ahead, due to delaying the running start and interupting movement in mid-air. 12:199 pixels ahead at frame 1229. 6 frames faster in this room.

Second room

Interrupting before sliding in order to go over the hill efficiently, this section is very laggy. ~2 pixels needed to be sacrificied at frame 1584 to not bumb into the Waddle Doo. At frame 1620 being 21:8 pixels ahead, thanks to better lag reduction on the hill. 3 frames faster in this room.

Last room

Not improved, due to the lag behaviour of the game.

Masterjun: Judg... no wait I'm an author dang it!

Nach: I'm not an author, judging.

TASeditor: Please update the submission with this file!

Nach: Replaced movie file.

Nach: It's now larger than a 1 frame improvement, and a nice one at that. Accepting.

Spikestuff: Publishing.

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Posted: 1/10/2017 6:18 PM

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Dwedit

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I don't think DMC channel state at bootup is consistent. Try playing Blades of Steel, and see how the demo changes every time you play it.

Posted: 1/10/2017 8:11 PM

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Alyosha

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Dwedit wrote:

I don't think DMC channel state at bootup is consistent. Try playing Blades of Steel, and see how the demo changes every time you play it.

I tested it for a bit using different DMC timer start states, and it looks like you are probably correct. That sucks :( I thought we had a good chance of console verifying this run, but if that is true it seems unlikely.

Posted: 1/11/2017 6:15 PM

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jlun2

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Alyosha wrote:

Dwedit wrote:
I don't think DMC channel state at bootup is consistent. Try playing Blades of Steel, and see how the demo changes every time you play it.
I tested it for a bit using different DMC timer start states, and it looks like you are probably correct. That sucks :( I thought we had a good chance of console verifying this run, but if that is true it seems unlikely.

I have no idea what DMC timer means, but would it be possible to set this to some known, "legit" value to make things consistent on console?

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 1/11/2017 6:20 PM

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TASeditor

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Joined: 7/9/2010
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Room 1 is now 5 frames faster: User movie #36277810643532219

Favorite animal: STOCK Gt(ROSA)26Sortm1.1(rtTA,EGFP)Nagy Grm7Tg(SMN2)89Ahmb Smn1tm1Msd Tg(SMN2*delta7)4299Ahmb Tg(tetO-SMN2,-luc)#aAhmb/J YouTube Twitch

Posted: 1/11/2017 11:28 PM

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Alyosha

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TASeditor wrote:

Room 1 is now 5 frames faster: User movie #36277810643532219

Cool nice find!

jlun2 wrote:

I have no idea what DMC timer means, but would it be possible to set this to some known, "legit" value to make things consistent on console?

The DMC timer ticks whenver the APU ticks, regardless of the state of the CPU or PPU or anyhting else (basically whenever power is supplied to the console.) There is no way to access the timer, it just reloads from the rate table whenever it hits zero. So assuming it isn't reset when powering on the console, there really isn't a way to manipulate it. Conceivably, you could contrive a ROM to output glitched controller reads at a fixed rate, and make a bot recognize the glitch read and kill power to the console, thereby leaving the timer at a known value and hope it doesn't decay the next time you power on the console. This is all speculative though and needs a lot of research.

Posted: 1/12/2017 12:32 AM

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Spikestuff

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I WANT TO GET OFF MR. KIRBY'S WILD RIDE! User movie #36283525854079577 Converted to Hawk. Updated to the Hawk's latest ending input. Updated the Rerecord count to match what the Hawk side has updated between the fm2 and the 1 frame away. 1 frame away again. I'm kinda confused now by it. I did use TASeditor's latest update and put that file across to Hawk... why is it outputting 2158 frames and not 2153... <Masterjun> -lag frames lead to +lag frames nods

WebNations/Sabih wrote:

+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.

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Posted: 1/12/2017 1:08 PM

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TASeditor

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Yeah unfortunately the lag in this game is not very cooperative. Everytime you change lag, the next instance lag will appear is different from before. I haven't done any work for other rooms, so give me 3 or 4 days until I completed a new version. As it looks interupts weren't even used in the published run.

Favorite animal: STOCK Gt(ROSA)26Sortm1.1(rtTA,EGFP)Nagy Grm7Tg(SMN2)89Ahmb Smn1tm1Msd Tg(SMN2*delta7)4299Ahmb Tg(tetO-SMN2,-luc)#aAhmb/J YouTube Twitch

Posted: 1/12/2017 3:30 PM

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feos

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Can't you outright bruteforce it after all?

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 1/12/2017 3:52 PM

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True

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Dwedit wrote:

I don't think DMC channel state at bootup is consistent. Try playing Blades of Steel, and see how the demo changes every time you play it.

Yes, this game shows this off. In testing though for some reason many other games are consistent - SMB3 for example will always have glitched reads of the same length at the same spots. The variation here is if the console is powered from cold power or reset though, and in this case I would have a different but _consistent_ pattern coming out of reset. --- I don't know what hardware I have left that wasn't stolen or destroyed, but I am pretty sure I saw my Kirby cart and I think I have enough to put something together and test this run after work.

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Posted: 1/12/2017 4:14 PM

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Alyosha

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One other interesting fact about Kirby's Adventure is that not only does it always poll controller 2, but it will also attempt to correct it for DMC gltich reads even though it's never used. This matters here because it means there will be cycle timing changes due to running the extra code. However this is only true if the controller is plugged in, since unplugged controller reads will just return zero even in glitched reads and thus will not result in an error. So in this particular instance you can get different results just by having player 2 controller plugged in, even if no buttons are ever pressed. Strange stuff! (You can test this in the most recent Dev Build of BizHawk, since I forgot to apply the glitch to player 2 previously.)

Posted: 1/12/2017 9:08 PM

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True

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Please let me know which file I should test and if I should have P2 plugged in or not.

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Posted: 1/14/2017 2:44 PM

Post subject: Update to submission file

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TASeditor

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Please update the submission with this 8 frame faster run: User movie #36341054517440931 I couldn't get it to a glitched ending, so those who wanted a clean ending are lucky.

Favorite animal: STOCK Gt(ROSA)26Sortm1.1(rtTA,EGFP)Nagy Grm7Tg(SMN2)89Ahmb Smn1tm1Msd Tg(SMN2*delta7)4299Ahmb Tg(tetO-SMN2,-luc)#aAhmb/J YouTube Twitch

Posted: 1/15/2017 2:12 AM

Post subject: Re: Update to submission file

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Alyosha

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TASeditor wrote:

Please update the submission with this 8 frame faster run: User movie #36341054517440931 I couldn't get it to a glitched ending, so those who wanted a clean ending are lucky.

I couldn't get this version to sync on BizHawk. It makes it about half way through the second room. I also tried a build without glitch reads and got the same results. @True: Maybe this would be a good one for console testing? It might give more information then simply failing on the glitch like the other runs.

Posted: 1/15/2017 2:33 PM

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TASeditor

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I removed inputs on all lag frames, that could be why it doesn't sync. It's probably very sensitive to PPU state. At the beginning of the second room delaying the movement interupt and inserting a D press gives same position at first, but then causes a desync at the point where BizHawk also desyncs. I got the run to sync but it had overall 9 frames of delay.

Favorite animal: STOCK Gt(ROSA)26Sortm1.1(rtTA,EGFP)Nagy Grm7Tg(SMN2)89Ahmb Smn1tm1Msd Tg(SMN2*delta7)4299Ahmb Tg(tetO-SMN2,-luc)#aAhmb/J YouTube Twitch

Posted: 1/15/2017 7:09 PM

Post subject: Re: Update to submission file

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True

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Alyosha wrote:

TASeditor wrote:
Please update the submission with this 8 frame faster run: User movie #36341054517440931 I couldn't get it to a glitched ending, so those who wanted a clean ending are lucky.
I couldn't get this version to sync on BizHawk. It makes it about half way through the second room. I also tried a build without glitch reads and got the same results. @True: Maybe this would be a good one for console testing? It might give more information then simply failing on the glitch like the other runs.

If it is an FM2 it will surely desync. I'll run it as-is. I still need to know how many controllers should be connected for these runs. I'll also try running one you posted previously. Running in about an hour.

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Posted: 1/15/2017 7:11 PM

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TASeditor

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Run it with only player 1 connected.

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Posted: 1/15/2017 8:51 PM

Post subject: Re: Update to submission file

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Alyosha

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True wrote:

If it is an FM2 it will surely desync. I'll run it as-is. I still need to know how many controllers should be connected for these runs. I'll also try running one you posted previously. Running in about an hour.

Yeah it will surely desync, but my hope is that it will be in the same way as on BizHawk. I just can't think of any ways to glean more information. Any ideas? Yeah the FCEUX run should be 1 player and preferrably DMC glitch disabled since that's how FCEUX works. The run I made was 2 players but coincidently I had DMC glitch disabled on player 2 at the time so that one can be run with 1 player DMC glitch on. I very much doubt it will sync but it's worth a try i guess.

Posted: 1/15/2017 9:04 PM

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True

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1) The FM2 you linked, exported from FCEUX, desyncs on first screen. Does not get the slide before the mix. 2) Your k2 file performs well until the glitch, and it fails. Both of my robots do different things but I think one of them is handling it correctly. Changing the amount of frames before starting doesn't affect the outcome from 0-3 frames extra. 3) TASeditor said the fm2 desyncs in bizhawk at second screen. Trying to import it, it desyncs at start menu. I need a file to test.

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Posted: 1/15/2017 9:22 PM

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Alyosha

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@True: the desyncs at the start menu are probably due to the reset, how does your bot handle that? Desyncing in the first room is interesting, I'll have to look into that. Is that desync consistent?

TASeditor wrote:

I got the run to sync but it had overall 9 frames of delay.

@TASeditor: do you have the file that syncs? Isn't 9 frames longer then the original run? 0_0 Strange. EDIT: Here's a straight resync of the most recent file on BizHawk, it does not get past the middle of the second screen. Should work with one controller and DMC glitches on (although glitches off resulted in the same behaviour.) If this run also desyncs in the first room that will at least be something to study. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/36369751744442141

Posted: 1/16/2017 2:34 AM

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True

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Alyosha wrote:

@True: the desyncs at the start menu are probably due to the reset, how does your bot handle that?

My bot doesn't. Kirby will sync when reset manually though, so my input starts past the reset point and I manually release reset to start play.

Alyosha wrote:

Desyncing in the first room is interesting, I'll have to look into that. Is that desync consistent?

Yes. See my last Twitch broadcast.

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Posted: 1/16/2017 2:12 PM

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TASeditor

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Alyosha: User movie #36384914702768785 and User movie #36385002662688000 True: You did use the latest BizHawk release? And set it up to NESHawk, 1 controller connected? After importing you need to delete one frame before reset.

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Posted: 1/16/2017 2:24 PM

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Alyosha

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^ oh cool thanks! @True: I can pretty easily get the desync at the slide now, it came down to resetting CPU cycles after the reset to fix the even/odd cycle timing. But then there is another desync at the 'A' press at frame 1428 that is still not resolved, so research continues. I might try making a run that does not have a reset in it just to minimize the number of variables for now.

Posted: 1/18/2017 7:53 AM

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True

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TASeditor wrote:

True: You did use the latest BizHawk release? And set it up to NESHawk, 1 controller connected? After importing you need to delete one frame before reset.

I used latest autobuild. Which release should I be doing this with? Also it wasn't mentioned about deleting a frame...I'll run whatever input I am given directly. Core and settings were set properly.

Alyosha wrote:

I might try making a run that does not have a reset in it just to minimize the number of variables for now.

I don't think that affects anything right now, but it does simplify testing, so not a bad idea. Should this work go to the general Kirby thread, or the NESHawk development thread now?

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Posted: 1/18/2017 1:13 PM

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Alyosha

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Yeah I think this discussion can be moved to the NESHawk thread, I'm not making any forward progress. This run requires too many things to be prefect that aren't even fully understood yet. It's like the last boss of NES console verifications. I need to come up with a more structured approach to this.

Posted: 1/26/2017 11:45 PM

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Nach

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What's going on with this run? Is there a particular file it should be replaced with? Are you guys still working on an improvement? Do you want to cancel this for now and come back in a couple of weeks when you figure it out?

Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.

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