Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
letcreate123 wrote:
feos wrote:
Are there other instances when the game directly encourages you to use the terminal? Also is there official documentation about its usage?
There are not. The "Speak Now..." room is the only room in the game where utilizing the terminal is required to progress in pre-Steam builds of the game. Otherwise, the entire game can be played through without using the terminal whatsoever (though there are a few commands that when used strategically can save significant time, such as the kill command, but I assume those are barred from the official site rules because unlike the arc command, the one that has to be input in the "Speak Now..." room to beat the game, the other commands are not required to make progress).
As for the second question, I was unable to find official documentation about the terminal, either specific to this game or in general. Neither the Steam or itch.io pages mention it, and I couldn't find anything in the author's blog either. I did just find a few unofficial Steam guides about it which cover some commands that can be used to, for example, outright cheese through the achievements in the Steam build, but they obviously don't classify as official, and the fact that some of the commands can be used to cheese through gameplay are starting to lead me to believe that it wasn't intended to be an actual feature other than the one instance of the arc command that's required to beat the game in the pre-Steam builds.
Okay it mostly sounds like a cheat thing indeed, and the author felt like being funny and made it a required tool in a single place of a few releases. I believe it should not be used in releases where it's not required to complete the game. Apparently, in those it became more traditional cheat functionality since there is a way to play the game without it at all.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Okay it mostly sounds like a cheat thing indeed, and the author felt like being funny and made it a required tool in a single place of a few releases. I believe it should not be used in releases where it's not required to complete the game. Apparently, in those it became more traditional cheat functionality since there is a way to play the game without it at all.
Alright. Am I correct, then, in assuming that the builds with the password room are preffered over those without it?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Yes.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
In Twisted Metal 2 the Special Moves are developer intended based on the fact that there is a Special regenerating bar for their sole use. The rub is that some inputs do not use the Bar, but are for more utility purposes and are extremely easy to do, like pressing two buttons. This leads me to believe they were intended to be found and used.
The special moves that actually use the Special Bar should all be acceptable. Codes that are just for utility that do not actually affect the strength of your car should also be allowed. Codes that do not use meter and have an effect on how your car interacts with other cars should not be allowed. Below I have classified what I believe should be allowed and what should not be.
A moderator on the speedrun forum wrote this "I'd say any attack that uses energy isn't a cheat. Even says in the manual that there are more attacks than just those. Generally things like inf ammo don't use energy." Which is also in line with what I would consider fair game.
-Allowed
-Special Attacks - All moves below use Bar
Minion's Special - Uses All Bar
Napalm Code
Freeze Burst Code
Rear Attack
Temporary Shield
Drop Mine code
High Jump
Temporary Invisibility - useless in 1P
-Allowed
-Misc - Utility Use, No Bar
Weapon List View
Disable Radar - this might reduce lag as well
Rear View Mirror
Select View - changes how you view the level. Higher you go the more lag
Hidden FMV sequence - no point to use
-Disallowed
"Cheats" - No Bar Use, drastic often permanent effects in Gameplay
Health Boost - Exchange weapons for health. No bar use.
Infinite Weapons + Turbo
Invincibility
Mega Machine Gun
Homing Napalms
Massive Damage with Ramming
Minion - Minion would be absurd to use.
Sweet Tooth - maybe, but you need to use a code to unlock him. He sucks anyway.
Thoughts?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
EZGames69 wrote:
There is a homebrew SNES game that allows you to play it either on an NTSC console or a PAL console. Currently on bizhawk it can only play the game on PAL mode, and there isn’t a way to make it run on NTSC, Unless a setting was added that lets you change the region, simmilar to SMS and Genesis.
Would an acception to the “no modification of rom files” rule be allowed if the game is meant to be usable for both PAL and NTSC?
(The game is Nightmare Busters)
Make an issue on bizhawk tracker, that'd be the proper approach.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
theripper999 wrote:
In Twisted Metal 2 the Special Moves are developer intended based on the fact that there is a Special regenerating bar for their sole use. The rub is that some inputs do not use the Bar, but are for more utility purposes and are extremely easy to do, like pressing two buttons. This leads me to believe they were intended to be found and used.
The special moves that actually use the Special Bar should all be acceptable. Codes that are just for utility that do not actually affect the strength of your car should also be allowed. Codes that do not use meter and have an effect on how your car interacts with other cars should not be allowed. Below I have classified what I believe should be allowed and what should not be.
A moderator on the speedrun forum wrote this "I'd say any attack that uses energy isn't a cheat. Even says in the manual that there are more attacks than just those. Generally things like inf ammo don't use energy." Which is also in line with what I would consider fair game.
-Allowed
-Special Attacks - All moves below use Bar
Minion's Special - Uses All Bar
Napalm Code
Freeze Burst Code
Rear Attack
Temporary Shield
Drop Mine code
High Jump
Temporary Invisibility - useless in 1P
-Allowed
-Misc - Utility Use, No Bar
Weapon List View
Disable Radar - this might reduce lag as well
Rear View Mirror
Select View - changes how you view the level. Higher you go the more lag
Hidden FMV sequence - no point to use
-Disallowed
"Cheats" - No Bar Use, drastic often permanent effects in Gameplay
Health Boost - Exchange weapons for health. No bar use.
Infinite Weapons + Turbo
Invincibility
Mega Machine Gun
Homing Napalms
Massive Damage with Ramming
Minion - Minion would be absurd to use.
Sweet Tooth - maybe, but you need to use a code to unlock him. He sucks anyway.
Thoughts?
Which of these are explicitly mentioned, explained, and encouraged in the manual?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
The link to the manual is here:
https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Sony_Playstation/Manual/formated/Twisted_Metal_2_-_1996_-_Sony_Computer_Entertainment.pdf
On page 8 you can see some of the ones they list.
Ok What I was calling a special attack they call "Advanced Attack".
They only list freeze burst, high jump and rear attack, but at the end tell you there are others with even more inputs.
"Advanced Attacks and maneuvers are performed by pressing different sequences of the Directional Buttons. Since your vehicle's direction and acceleration may be affected when executing an Advance Attack be sure to familiarize yourself with controlling your car before you attempt them. Advanced Attacks are extremely useful and allow you to attack your enemy when you no longer have any weapons. They also enable your car to maneuver in unusual ways, creating combination attacks when used with other weapons (see Combo Attacks on pg. 10). Practice with Advanced Attacks and maneuvers listed below. There are many possible Advanced Attacks in Twisted Metal 2. Most Advanced Attacks require 3 or 4 button sequences, and some require more.
Attack Manuever Directional Button Sequence
Freeze Burst LRU
High Jump UUL
Rear Attack LRD
"
There is a homebrew SNES game that allows you to play it either on an NTSC console or a PAL console. Currently on bizhawk it can only play the game on PAL mode, and there isn’t a way to make it run on NTSC, Unless a setting was added that lets you change the region, simmilar to SMS and Genesis.
Would an acception to the “no modification of rom files” rule be allowed if the game is meant to be usable for both PAL and NTSC?
(The game is Nightmare Busters)
Make an issue on bizhawk tracker, that'd be the proper approach.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
And from what I see there, it should be perfectly valid to just run this game in PAL.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I will do it in PAL, it’s just having the option to do it in NTSC would be better. But since it doesn’t seem possible right now yeah, PAL it is.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
theripper999 wrote:
The link to the manual is here:
https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Sony_Playstation/Manual/formated/Twisted_Metal_2_-_1996_-_Sony_Computer_Entertainment.pdf
On page 8 you can see some of the ones they list.
Ok What I was calling a special attack they call "Advanced Attack".
They only list freeze burst, high jump and rear attack, but at the end tell you there are others with even more inputs.
"Advanced Attacks and maneuvers are performed by pressing different sequences of the Directional Buttons. Since your vehicle's direction and acceleration may be affected when executing an Advance Attack be sure to familiarize yourself with controlling your car before you attempt them. Advanced Attacks are extremely useful and allow you to attack your enemy when you no longer have any weapons. They also enable your car to maneuver in unusual ways, creating combination attacks when used with other weapons (see Combo Attacks on pg. 10). Practice with Advanced Attacks and maneuvers listed below. There are many possible Advanced Attacks in Twisted Metal 2. Most Advanced Attacks require 3 or 4 button sequences, and some require more.
Attack Manuever Directional Button Sequence
Freeze Burst LRU
High Jump UUL
Rear Attack LRD
"
The manual is wrong about Select+Down and Select+Left, but it still explicitly mentions all 4 directions while holding Select, so those utility functions are allowed.
Special attacks are allowed since they're present in the weapon HUD and can be directly selected.
Advanced attacks are actually tricky. The manual says they all consist of Directional Buttons. So input sequences beyond those can be considered cheats and not advanced attacks. The manual says advanced attacks are extremely useful, so they all are encouraged. It also says they consist of 3 or 4 buttons, so such sequences also sound intended.
To recap: Sequences consisting of 3 or 4 Directional Buttons are explicitly encouraged and should be allowed.
As for advanced attacks consisting of more buttons, or of non-directonal buttons, those sound rather arbitrary, and possibly left for the player to figure out. But we can't know which attack they meant and which they didn't. But they also mention the advanced attack energy bar on page 5, so indeed attacks that involve the enegry bar feel intended.
The question is, are there advanced attacks that use the energy bar and require non-directional buttons?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
The only other attack that uses bar with a non directional is one that is like Minion's attack that requires holding R1 then Up Down Up Up. It uses the whole advanced bar so pretty fair.
Also good to know those utility ones are allowed.
Advanced attacks are actually tricky. The manual says they all consist of Directional Buttons. So input sequences beyond those can be considered cheats and not advanced attacks. The manual says advanced attacks are extremely useful, so they all are encouraged. It also says they consist of 3 or 4 buttons, so such sequences also sound intended.
There is a comparable question for [3582] DOS Bio Menace: Episode 1 - Dr. Mangle's Lab by slamo in 09:16.68 that was never resolved.
The manual of the game mentions four "secret moves", tells the input for two of them (plasma bolt and fireball), and mentions two more without revealing their input (shield and temporary invulnerability). And then the manual mentions a "cheat code" (infinite ammo) and tells the input; unlike the other four, this one gives an in-game popup "cheat option" when used.
Any thoughts on that? It is unclear (so far) whether these moves would actually make a TAS faster, but it would be nice to have an official answer for trying.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Where can I read that manual?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
===================
SECRET BATTLE MOVES
===================
■ There are four secret moves which give Snake valuable added weapons to
help balance the scales against his evil foes! They are:
■ SUPER PLASMA BOLT
Hold the up arrow, (or up on the joystick), until you hear an electrical
charge sound. Once you hear this sound, press the fire button and a
plasma beam will shoot in the direction you are facing burning through a
whole line of enemies! Beware, this is a powerful weapon and the toxic
fume cloud it leaves behind inflicts one point of damage on Snake! Use
this weapon wisely!
■ FIRE BALL ATTACK
Turn left to right, back and forth in succession about five or six turns
rapidly and press the fire button. Snake uses his secret energy pack to
disperse six flaming fire balls, three in each direction, to toast those
hard to get at enemies.
■ ELECTRON SHIELD
Protects Snake and zaps any enemies daring to touch him for a limited
amount of time.
■ INVINCIBILITY BURST
Gives you a short burst of invincibility without having to find an
invincibility potion.
We've left the Electron Shield and the Invincibility burst there for you to
experiment with, and find on your own. We don't want to give EVERYTHING away,
now do we? :)
=================
SECRET CHEAT KEYS
=================
There is an option cheat mode built into Bio Menace. If you press these three
keys simultaneously, you will get the normal machine gun with 90 rounds of
ammunition, and 99 regular grenades. The keys are [C] [A] [T]. This
combination can be used as many times as you wish, and only works on the
commercial version of the software.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
SECRET BATTLE MOVES whose input they provide are allowed as officially encouraged means of normal play. SECRET BATTLE MOVES whose input they don't provide are officially meant to be discovered first, and then used, on the same grounds as the first 2.
SECRET CHEAT KEYS are explicitly and officially labeled as cheats, in both the manual and the game, and it gives unfair advantage of unlimited resources, and even those resources don't showcase any unique abilities that can't be accessed otherwise, just some regular thing, only unlimited now.All it does is making the game much simpler, and that's not what we want in TASes.
I think banning those cheat keys will be reasonable: for legitimacy of the movie, complexity of execution, and impressiveness of a result. And just like we magically know all passwords and other in-game codes used for extra content like unique levels, characters, or harder mode, we can magically know those 2 combinations they want us to discover on our own. So SECRET BATTLE MOVES should be allowed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
A question about Wii Party TASes, following discussion with Wipeoutjack after his recent submission was rejected;
The recommendation made was that an "All Minigames" TAS be submitted instead, in the hope of having a more complete branch. (Indeed, one has already been in development for a few months). However, one area of the game not addressed by this is the main gamemodes, which are much longer and could be considered more "Full Game"-like speedrun categories. There are 5 "Party Games" and 3 "Pair Games", and all of these differ significantly from each other in format, rather than simply being different boards of the same game. Would one of these gamemodes be submittable on their own, or would they instead be required to be submitted in packs (All Party Games, All Pair Games, etc.)?
EDIT: A follow-up question, since it came to mind; In the case of one of the gamemodes (Balance Boat), there are multiple difficulty settings, and only Easy is available from a new save file. (You need to beat each difficulty to unlock the next one). Would it be desired that a TAS play through all difficulty modes rather than just the one that's available? I imagine that it might be, although there wouldn't be very much variation in the gameplay between each difficulty.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Does any of these modes have an ending with credits?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Then splitting it by minigames or modes feels arbitrary.
Movie Rules wrote:
Games without clear ending
Games that loop endlessly without some kind of ending can still have a defined ending point, which can be any of the following:
The game reaches a point where difficulty stops increasing and no new content is left to complete.
If the game allows to choose which levels to visit, all such levels need to be visited to establish that no new content will appear anymore.
On the other hand, some minigames or modes make no sense to speedrun. Was the plan to TAS all of them or just some specific ones?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Since Wipeout has decided to submit a Match-Up TAS regardless, I figure I should address the previous response;
It is true that some of the minigames and modes don't make sense to speedrun. In addition to the "Party Games" and "Pair Games" set of modes, there is also a "House Party" category, which features games that mainly revolve around what happens outside it (such as Hide and Seek for the WiiMotes), which I don't believe anyone has interest in TASing. I would also say that at least half of the minigames available do not work particularly well in a TAS, at least where the primary goal is speed.
However, there is a situation in which playing through the minigames could potentially prove to be a viable branch (since only going through specific ones would, according to what I know, be too arbitrary a goal for typical TASVideos standards). If all minigames were to be played, but instead as a Playaround TAS mainly focused on entertainment, then I imagine that it would be much more interesting to watch, and have a much higher chance of getting in. One of such a nature has been in development on and off for several months.
The issue with grouping this in directly with the Party and Pair Games is that in contrast to the minigames, every main gamemodes beside House Party (in my opinion) primarily works well as a speedrun, with lots of interesting strategies, routing and RNG manipulation that can prove quite engaging to viewers. But since this conflicts with the goal for the minigames of entertainment, it presents a need to separate the minigames and main gamemodes into separate branches. I could still understand combining all the Party Games and Pair Games into a single branch, but at that point I don't really see how it would benefit matters much.
The main question that Wipeout's TAS presents is "Is it okay to do one of these main gamemodes on their own, and not in combination with other ones under the same category?" While this does inevitably present too many branches, I feel like the answer to this could be "Yes"; after all, the same issue exists with Sonic Adventure DX, where seven branches are currently necessary just to cover the full Any% campaign, the expectation being that an "All Stories" TAS will eventually come to be when it becomes a necessary step for other gamemodes to get on the site. I'm not a judge, though, so I can't say how this might be treated differently.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I've been reading information about this game and it seems not everything about it is described clearly. Among "Party Games", "Pair Games", and "House Party", there are some minigames and some non-minigames? I mostly understand the nature of those 3 modes, but how else do they sub-divide?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Party Games, Pair Games and House Party are considered the "mainline" gamemodes of Wii Party, and the minigames are considered a "subset" or sub-mode to that; Minigames are typically played via random rotation in the main gamemodes, and the "Free Play" option simply allows one to play any minigame they desire of the 79 available. However, there are other minigame-focused sub-modes alongside Free Play.
There is a "Battle" mode, where players compete to win a set number of minigames first (either 3 or 5), a "Solo" mode, where a single player ventures through several rounds of minigames (with the option to make A/B choices as to what minigame they will play next at lower difficulty levels), with the number of rounds increasing with difficulty; a "Challenge" mode, which features more in-depth minigames primarily intended for either solo or co-operative play not available elsewhere (some are altered versions of existing minigames, however, and must be unlocked by playing the regular version once first); finally, there is "Rule Reversal" (or "Spot the Sneak"), where a select number of random minigames are played, and each time a randomly selected player is granted "cheating" abilities. Success in Rule Reversal is balanced between skill from winning the minigames, and accuracy in guessing who the cheater is (or success in hiding it from other players).
This is admittedly quite a selection of content that I failed to mention, perhaps because substantially less attention is drawn to them by the game itself. However, I will say that I do not think that most of these modes offer much entertainment value over the main gamemodes or Free Play, as many of them are simply RNG dependent minigame selection, and are thus likely to repeatedly cycle through the fastest minigames available in a similar fashion to the main gamemodes. Most of the "Challenge" modes that can be speedrunned or have potential for uncapped score attack could potentially be interesting to see in a TAS (besides Shifty Gifts); apart from that, there is no other content that I know of in the game.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
If one plays through all the Free Play minigames and in a different movie completes the Challenge mode, how many speedrun-elegible minigames will remain untased? Also in those modes, how many minigames don't make sense to speedrun?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
