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Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
That's a good question. Moreover, you are 8 frames behind before as much as gaining control over Samus. I say it's the lack of rerecords and understanding of the game's physics.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Editor, Player (95)
Joined: 5/27/2006
Posts: 240
yes, fusion and mzm game mechanics take a lot of knowledge. i'd say dragonfangs would be the most knowledgeable about zm, talk to him and examine his runs.
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
This bump reminds me that I'm still working on this run... haven't touched it for a few months, which is silly because I'm like 5-10 minutes from finishing it (almost back at the pirate ship after cleaning up Zebes). The main problem is that I can't get some PB drops, and without them I will lose time later. The fact that the improvement is pretty small (IIRC about 40 seconds so far) also helps to demotivate.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Active player (378)
Joined: 6/5/2006
Posts: 188
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Pyro, be sure to check out the published runs and compare them to your current WIP, frame by frame if needed. You should be at least as fast as the current any% in rooms that are comparable. Seeing as you're new to the engine, you don't know all the quirks, but know that we who DO know all the quirks use them constantly. Read the comments in my runs, I mention most of them there. And if something seems weird I'll be happy to clarify, I know I can be confusing sometimes >_>. And unless you already are, use memory watch, it helps a lot. PJBoy has an awesome dump page with a lot of addresses. A few examples from your WIP: Choosing save slot C is slower as it has an animation where it slowly floats up to the proper position, save slot A does not do this. Morphing in midair resets all of your momentum and should only be done as close to the ground as possible unless you want to slow down. Making a tiny jump before a ledge increases fall speed but decreases horizontal speed. The hive room was horrible. It's a difficult room, and very luck-based, but that's no excuse for it to be sloppy. Manipulate the flies to be in a better position, don't fall down, taking damage is slooow, avoid it. You should release left/right the same frame you run off a ledge, and the hold it again 3-4 frames later. This seems really odd but it's faster, a lot easier to see with memory watch.
Even the best player is limited by the speed of his fingers, or his mind's ability to control them. But what happens when speed is not a factor, when theory becomes reality?
Joined: 7/18/2007
Posts: 109
how do you use memory watch? EDIT: i mean how do i actually put in the addresses and stuff?
P.JBoy
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Editor
Joined: 3/25/2006
Posts: 850
Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!
Lets assume you have the lastest VBA and the lastest VBA watch. Have them both in the same folder, to make things easier, just download these files The syntax is simple enough. The address of the variable you want to watch, the size and display of it, the name you want to give it. With the size and display; 1, 2 and 4 read 1, 2, or 4 bytes; x displays them as hex, u displays them as unsigned (only positive) decimal, s displays them as signed decimal, and b displays them in binary With the Metroid games, there are a lot of quirks and optimisations too keep in mind.
  • When falling off a ledge when you still need to progress forwards, if you're holding forwards, your speed decelerates instantly. But if you don't, it decelerates gradually, and spinning preserves the speed value of the current frame and is used by the next frame aswell
  • When falling off a ledge when you don't need to progress forwards, jumping for either a frame or 2 on the first frame possible so that you still clear the ledge is faster
  • You can break your spin with either Up or Down and still ascend, while shooting will break your ascent. You can press Up or Down without holding Jump, then the next frame you can hold Jump again to start spinning again, and on the same frame you can shoot if you need to
  • You can start spinning in mid-air from a straight jump by holding backwards for one frame, and holding Jump on the next frame (which is the basis of this video)
  • If you need to morph when you land, morph after/during those deceleration frames you get from not holding forwards. And avoid spinning, it requires an extra frame to break the spin
  • When wall-jumping, the most optimal way is the one where each wall-jump starts on the same vertical speed
  • When jumping onto a ledge where you have to jump as soon as you land anyways, count how many frames it takes to jump on the ledge, and do the jump with the same amount of frames as early as possible but still land on the ledge
  • If you morph the same frame you lay a bomb, it gets laid slightly higher
  • You can shoot while jumping and morphing, which allow for different distances and angles you can sheet from, vital to know when double-hitting eye-doors or triple-hitting the charge beamst
That's all I can think of, but you'll probably find more along the way
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
I'm thinking of maybe picking up the 9% run for this game. Is there anything specific worth considering here that can't be derived from watching the old WIP? And figured I might as well ask so that no one else was working on this already.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Active player (378)
Joined: 6/5/2006
Posts: 188
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Are you a bad enough dude to attempt 9% hard? :D Nah, but in all seriousness, I've started a 9% a couple of times, but I've realized I just don't have the time to do stuff anymore :(. That said, I believe, PJ dropped his run and nobody else has started one. It's pretty much straight up the current any% route with a few harder bomb jumps (lol Rio room) and more rigorous ammo management. There's not much to recconsider afaik.
Even the best player is limited by the speed of his fingers, or his mind's ability to control them. But what happens when speed is not a factor, when theory becomes reality?
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
Well hard mode can only be accessed after completing the game, so I think normal is the better choice :P Anyway, I tested it out with the newest emulator, unfortunately it looks like you lose a frame in every door transition, and a couple of frames in every item collection/cut scene. But I guess it won't add up to too much in the end.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1029
I thought 9% was impossible on Hard on (U) because there's a wall that you physically can't have enough missiles to burst through (and it respawns if you go back to get more missiles). (It's probable you two both know this too, but I thought I'd mention it for people who are trying to figure out the smileys.)
Active player (378)
Joined: 6/5/2006
Posts: 188
Location: Malmö, Sweden
We could totally switch versions, that's the only difference aside from languages I know of in (E) (missile blocks do NOT respawn), being portable and all. For the record, I have discussed this with various people before, and it probably isn't a good idea. Even though Mother Brain's room would look dope.
Even the best player is limited by the speed of his fingers, or his mind's ability to control them. But what happens when speed is not a factor, when theory becomes reality?
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
Yeah I'm not really for it. I think the ammo restraint would be put to the point of just being tedious. Plus the fact that you have to do it from dirty SRAM, which is generally not preferred, and on the (E) ROM, which is also generally not preferred (even though the differences are close to none in this case) doesn't work in its favor.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1029
I'm pretty sure the rules allow you to use an unusual ROM if it has different tricks or glitches. A lower low% would be enough of a reason to use (E), I guess. Not sure if the run itself would be entertaining, though.
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
Small WIP. Made on v24 svn422. I'm behind Dragonfangs any% run by 11 frames at this point, but ahead by 33 frames ingame, which is mostly due to emulator differences. The room with the Hives is the only one that's improved on significantly, although going faster forced me to do a walljump at the end to avoid getting hit as I couldn't manipulate the flies to go right after killing the hive (couldn't find a way to manipulate that to happen anyway).
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
I've made some more progress, and just beat the cocoon thingy. Besides a few unlucky moments with enemy manipulation everything has been going very well. The cocoon fight went just about as well as I could have ever wished for. I managed to get enough refills from the first burst of spores to be able to make do with just 2 from the second one (this is a bit difficult since it seems you can only get 2 drops at a time here, and have to pick up one of the drops in order to get a new one). Then I managed to make my way over to the other side and use up all my missiles, and with a margin of just a few frames managed to shoot the second burst of spores on the first frame possible. I think I gained about 400 frames over the old 9% WIP on that fight alone, and am ahead by about 1000 frames at this point (plus maybe 50-100 frames which were lost from emulator differences). No idea how I'm going to optimize Ridley properly though... WIP
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Editor, Skilled player (1439)
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2108
Cpadolf wrote:
I've made some more progress, and just beat the cocoon thingy. Besides a few unlucky moments with enemy manipulation everything has been going very well. The cocoon fight went just about as well as I could have ever wished for. I managed to get enough refills from the first burst of spores to be able to make do with just 2 from the second one (this is a bit difficult since it seems you can only get 2 drops at a time here, and have to pick up one of the drops in order to get a new one). Then I managed to make my way over to the other side and use up all my missiles, and with a margin of just a few frames managed to shoot the second burst of spores on the first frame possible. I think I gained about 400 frames over the old 9% WIP on that fight alone, and am ahead by about 1000 frames at this point (plus maybe 50-100 frames which were lost from emulator differences). No idea how I'm going to optimize Ridley properly though... WIP
The run desyncs from the very beginning for me, could someone perhaps make an encode or something?
Tompa
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Editor, Expert player (2214)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
Does anyone know how Ridley's AI works/how you can manipulate it? It seems to be based at least partially on randomness, because I can't get him to shoot flames at me as quickly as in P.JBoy's run even if I mimicked his movements perfectly, but I don't know if there's any good way of affecting it without wasting a bunch of time.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Active player (378)
Joined: 6/5/2006
Posts: 188
Location: Malmö, Sweden
I've never had to deal with it so i don't really know. I want to remember P.J writing up something about it somewhere, but I can't find it now :S.
Even the best player is limited by the speed of his fingers, or his mind's ability to control them. But what happens when speed is not a factor, when theory becomes reality?
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
Looks like he only reacts to your movement/position at specific times during his pattern, and also sometimes when you take damage at just the right moment (and also RNG, but that's only good for getting his first pattern right). If I manage to do this right and get almost all of the drops possible each round I should be able to save a lot of time here.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
Up to Tourian now. Things are going smoothly most of the time, though the randomness of when a Rio freezes and when it doesn't is the most bullshit thing in the entire game. The big room in Tourian and MB are definitely the biggest obstacles left. After that I think it should be mostly smooth sailing unless there's something I'm forgetting. 4000+ frames ahead of the old WIP now. WIP
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
Very cool WIP, Cp!!! Congratulations! Btw, is there significant improvements to the 100% and any% runs of this game for new runs?
Active player (378)
Joined: 6/5/2006
Posts: 188
Location: Malmö, Sweden
You're doing progress really fast, man. Finally took the time to watch the WIP and it's looking good so far, keep it up (b^^)b. And yes, Chozodia in general isn't very resource intensive so it should be comparatively easy, Mecha Ridley should still be interesting though.
Even the best player is limited by the speed of his fingers, or his mind's ability to control them. But what happens when speed is not a factor, when theory becomes reality?
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Very cool WIP, Cp!!! Congratulations! Btw, is there significant improvements to the 100% and any% runs of this game for new runs?
As far as I remember there's only like a frame every here and there for the 100% run in the comparable places. For the any% run I think there's a few seconds but still not super much. It should be easier to tell if High-Jump is worth it when this run is done though, and maybe if it's possible to cut down on missile pickups too.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
P.JBoy
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Editor
Joined: 3/25/2006
Posts: 850
Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!
I've never written anything about Ridley I'm afraid; and I don't really know how his AI works. All I remember is that I had to be in certain position ranges for him to shoot the fireballs, and if he didn't shoot any, I used the cheesing strat to make him swoosh to the other side. I'd love to know what makes him shoot the two rounds of fireballs, I only got him to do it twice I believe, and I think it was dependant on health in some respect. Good luck for the Zebetites, they were the absolute hardest part of the run for me. And also, I had no idea that Rio could be frozen
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