Topic by Truncated

Posted: 9/5/2004 1:54 PM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (968)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

What other possible improvements do you have in mind?

Posted: 9/5/2004 4:13 PM

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Phil

Active player (410)

Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

Truncated wrote:

What other possible improvements do you have in mind?

It seems he kills some enemies in some places, for nothing. That's the main improvement.

Posted: 9/5/2004 6:37 PM

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Deviance

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706

It seems he kills some enemies in some places, for nothing. That's the main improvement.

I didn't notice that, can you give an example?

Posted: 9/5/2004 6:48 PM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (768)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

example

at 3:00

Posted: 9/5/2004 6:52 PM

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Phil

Active player (410)

Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

Example: From beginning of level 3. Left 1, Up 2, Left 1, in this room, he kill a bat. It's a lost of time killing it since he gain nothing. Swinging your sword lose you ~13 frames. So you got 13 frames in hand to control the randomness to evite to hurt the bat while walking. You must be pretty unlucky to take more than 4 frames for not having a good random.

Posted: 9/6/2004 11:40 PM

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TSA

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 186

I'm glad I don't have to time my runs in frames...going into this much detail is just...heh...very meticulous.

Posted: 9/6/2004 11:47 PM

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Phil

Active player (410)

Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

TSA wrote:

I'm glad I don't have to time my runs in frames...going into this much detail is just...heh...very meticulous.

^_^

Posted: 9/7/2004 3:25 AM

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Seppel

Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 29

It's probably been said many times before, but just in case, I'll bring it up. Would going to level 8 after level 1 save any time in the matter of obtaining keys? Also, on the issue of manipulating randomness, if there's different versions of ROMs, wouldn't that make it theoretically possible to manipulate luck from the source? Get thousands of copies of the cartridge and port them all over to see which one has the best random selection seed (if it works that way at all). At that point, you would be able to plan it out way in advance and produce perfect luck without any slowdowns or lost frames, lining up every enemy as you desire. Of course, that would take probably a year at least, and it would supercede any videos done that rely on luck, ever. Funny how there's the possibility of even greater perfection.

~Seppel

Posted: 9/7/2004 4:11 AM

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Michael_Fried

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

It's probably been said many times before, but just in case, I'll bring it up. Would going to level 8 after level 1 save any time in the matter of obtaining keys? If you're talking about the magic key, getting it wastes a lot of time since you have to take a big detour to get to it.

Posted: 9/7/2004 6:12 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (968)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

>Get thousands of copies of the cartridge and port them all over to see which one has the best random selection seed (if it works that way at all). Games do not work this way.

Posted: 9/7/2004 7:29 AM

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Phil

Active player (410)

Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

Even if it works that way, no one will have the patience to do this.

Posted: 9/7/2004 5:07 PM

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Walker_Boh

Former player

Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden

Hehe. What a headache to test all those games ;)

/Walker Boh

Posted: 9/7/2004 5:27 PM

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Seppel

Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 29

Heh, yeah. Oh well. I shall be quiet now. =3

~Seppel

Posted: 9/17/2004 7:45 PM

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Baxter

Skilled player (1402)

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821

I also started a LoZ speedrun, but I have very little time to work on it, and my progress is real slow, so it will take a long while before it's, if it will ever be, finished. I just completed level 3, but I don't know exactly what route I'll take, like if I should gamble two or three times. I also wonder why the current zelda fmv's use the flute twice each time.

http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html

Posted: 9/17/2004 7:55 PM

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Bob_Whoops

Former player

Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA

Phil has just completed a run for this if you interested. Its for FCEU though. Sleepz uses the flute twice because that warps you to a different dungeon.

Posted: 9/17/2004 10:23 PM

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Phil

Active player (410)

Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

It's 1:26 faster than Sleepz. I'm waiting Bisqwit to support FCEU movie files to publish this movie. So be patient guys and girls.

Posted: 9/17/2004 10:25 PM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

Phil wrote:

It's 1:26 faster than Sleepz. I'm waiting Bisqwit to support FCEU movie files to publish this movie. So be patient guys and girls.

And I'm waiting for a patch that works better than the last one I tried: http://forum.starmen.net/index.php?t=msg&goto=90515#msg_90515

Posted: 9/17/2004 11:32 PM

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4matsy

Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 498

*reads Bisqwit's post in the topic he linked to* So...I'm not really clear on this...was it the clumsy key setup that turned you off, or were there some other problems as well? 'Cause blip just released a version with remappable keys 5 days ago...~_^

Posted: 9/17/2004 11:33 PM

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Phil

Active player (410)

Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

4matsy wrote:

*reads Bisqwit's post in the topic he linked to* So...I'm not really clear on this...was it the clumsy key setup that turned you off, or were there some other problems as well? 'Cause blip just released a version with remappable keys 5 days ago...~_^

It is for Win32 not Linux.

Posted: 9/18/2004 1:47 AM

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4matsy

Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 498

The binary is, yeah I know...but there's also a source download in the thread I linked to. That can't be compiled on Linux?

Posted: 9/18/2004 1:49 AM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

4matsy wrote:

So...I'm not really clear on this...was it the clumsy key setup that turned you off, or were there some other problems as well?

The problem was that to playback movies, I was required to do <waves hands a lot> to get it done. I'm not accepting that. I want to just feed a filename somewhere and press a (1) key to start playing back the movie - just like in Famtasia, Snes9x and even Gens.

Posted: 9/18/2004 2:10 AM

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Ramzi

Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459

What an amazing run! Wow. A sub-26. Wow. Wow. I never thought that would be possible. I'm a bit rusty. You saved some time with the keys, but what else? I noticed you had only 1 rupee for Ganon. Did you save time on rupee collection? If all that time was saved on fighting, I wonder what the theoretical fastest time could ever be. If every action affected the game somehow... (Like, whether to shoot a sword beam in the time it takes for the tornado to pick you up or not) then there has to be a specific right set to get the theoretical fastest time. I don't think our technology allows us to do that yet. :-P

Posted: 9/18/2004 8:08 AM

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todd

Joined: 4/4/2004
Posts: 66

(somewhat off-topic reply to Ramzi): Heh. I hope we someday have the computing power to attempt to exhaust the entire "game tree" for a NES game. If I'm not mistaken, there are 256 (2^8) possible NES controller states (each of up, down, left, right, A, B, select, and start may be either pressed or unpressed). In 25 minutes, there are 25*60*60=90000 frames. So checking exhaustively for sub-25 minute solutions for Zelda would require traversing a "game tree" of size 256^90000. That's a big number :) To compare, chess's game tree complexity is a mere ~10^120. Go's is probably a few hundred digits more, but still absolutely puny compared to even one minute of NES play. I wonder if it's even possible to do 256^90000 computations without causing a universe-destroying entropy increase :) (by destroy, I mean something along the lines of making the universe a very boring place devoid of life where almost nothing happens)

Posted: 9/18/2004 8:19 AM

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NrgSpoon

Joined: 6/14/2004
Posts: 646

Well, also keeping in mind that since we're going for a FLAWLESS run, a lot of those segments will be ignored due to taking damage or whatnot.

I like my "thank you"s in monetary form.

Posted: 9/18/2004 6:04 PM

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Bob_Whoops

Former player

Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA

Well, doing a full traversal of the entire game is impossible. Your math is correct, and this number is so insanely huge. I'm not an expert on this, but a good speed for a supercomputer cluster is maybe a terabyte of instructions per second. At this rate, the universe will implode (or whatever) before we are done. If our computing power doubled every day, we would never reach it. The number of possibilites that there are makes the number of particles in the univerese seem insignificant. Well, I think you get the point by now. However, I'm not saying that it can't be done. With enough pruning, it might be possible. Obviously, a game where he starts walking into a wall can instantly be discarded. Of course, there is always the possibilty that by walking into a wall for one second, it just sets up the randomness just right for the rest of the game so that everything goes perfectly. In other words, we will never see a perfect run ot this game, ever.