Topic by Ramzi

Posted: 9/1/2008 5:40 AM

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Ramzi

Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459

Not a joke. Just that I, rebellious by nature, wish to contribute liberal ideas to this community. I've been around here since the beginning. I detected particular peaks and slow periods. Perhaps I am wrong. I remember before there were SNES re-recording emulators. And how much activity there was once one was made. But the systems for which re-recording ought be made (generally) are. Newer systems generally have very difficult to TAS games, or TASs that would really require a time commitment from the viewer. I advocate a sort of "challenges" or "highlight real" subforum to this community.

Posted: 9/1/2008 5:59 AM

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alden

Player (120)

Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522

Yes, perhaps I was too hasty. I don't mean to say you are "wrong"... just that this would cut out the parts of the current tas that I like :) But you might be on to something, and I certainly support rethinking and diversity in this community. Hell, I fell into the usual "GAH THIS IS DIFFERENT AND BAD" trap. Post a WIP!

I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs

Posted: 9/1/2008 6:01 AM

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Ramzi

Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459

I think the "post videos of you playing stuff," and "just be funny," threads are good starts. Any goons on these boards familiar with the concepts of the Lets Play forum? Can't make a WIP because my comp is fucked.

Posted: 9/1/2008 6:43 AM

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Twisted_Eye

He/Him

Active player (332)

Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 629
Location: Seattle, WA

I fail to see how forcing a TAS to look like it was played by a person who's never played the game before and needs to examine entire dungeons in the intended order would be entertaining? I'm all for thinking outside of the box but constraining yourself inside an even smaller box is a bit of a step in the wrong direction. TASes should never cater specifically to people who've never played the particular game before by doing things in order--the true beauty is seeing a game you thought you knew inside and out get totally bojangled in unexpected ways! A supplementary 'walkthrough' TAS would be largely redundant and just dilute the system. --also, I really don't see your ruleset as being 'natural,' I mean, who really goes through and kills every monster in every room whether you need to or not? Who avoids the overworld Hearts, even if they find them? Who doesn't upgrade their sword? Seems a little contradictory. Advocating for a "challenges" or "highlight reel," on the other is not a bad idea, on the other hand, and it might eventually be considered an extension of the ambiguous "Concept Demos" category. A way of taking those awesome "this .fcm won't fit into any TAS but is still very awesome" type posts and making them more accessible. Concept Demos category, though, requires publication, and a lot of tiny, ten-second videos would ruin the system. Perhaps just an organized thread in the General subforum would best suit this venture?

Posted: 9/1/2008 12:14 PM

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p0rtal_0f_rain

Banned User

Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone

I kinda like the latest LoZ publications the way they are. Unless you're looking to go for 100% stuff with dependency of game restarts and other tactics, maybe I'm interested. The thing is that if you do use restart sequences, at least you won't ever see a "Game Over!" Ask Phil and watch one of his LoZ publications, and you'll know. =)

Posted: 9/1/2008 6:00 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

I'm generally of the opinion that if it's entertaining to a significant subset of the population, then it should be published. Or at least "made available" (as alden would put it) on the site. So if you think this would be fun to watch, by all means, make a video! I'm not certain I get it myself, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 3/20/2009 9:40 PM

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jprofit22

Player (50)

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 100

I have posted my WIP 1 of a LOZ 100% TAS on youtube. Any feedback is welcome. Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gt0TEpxrp8&feature=channel_page

Posted: 3/20/2009 10:43 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

I think your decisions on what does and doesn't count for 100% are controversial. In general for a 100% game I would err on the side of getting too many things than on the side of skipping things. So for example, I would say that a 100% run would have to get all of the heart containers, both bomb upgrades, the magic shield, the red potion, all three swords, the blue ring, etc. Basically, my rubric is that at the end of the game, every flag relating to a gettable item in the game that is not a rupee, bomb, or key should be set, and the player should be as powerful and well-equipped as is possible.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 3/20/2009 10:56 PM

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Baxter

Skilled player (1402)

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821

Derakon wrote:

I think your decisions on what does and doesn't count for 100% are controversial. In general for a 100% game I would err on the side of getting too many things than on the side of skipping things. So for example, I would say that a 100% run would have to get all of the heart containers, both bomb upgrades, the magic shield, the red potion, all three swords, the blue ring, etc. Basically, my rubric is that at the end of the game, every flag relating to a gettable item in the game that is not a rupee, bomb, or key should be set, and the player should be as powerful and well-equipped as is possible.

One could be as powerful as possible without the blue ring or the white sword.

http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html

Posted: 3/20/2009 11:11 PM

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MUGG

Editor, Expert player (2312)

Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3855
Location: Germany

I agree with Derakon. Collect everything that is permanent (no rupees, hearts, fairies, keys...) Nice work, nevertheless. My only gripe is the lack of damage boosting - you never got even close to 0.5 HP. And at 6:30, why did you enter the temple twice?

Youtube • Livestream • Progress 11th TASer of the Decade 2010-2019 !

Posted: 3/20/2009 11:15 PM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2141)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

So shall visiting all rooms in a dungeon be a must for a 100% run as well? Open all locks and bomb all the walls. You will also have to burn all the bushes in the overworld. etc. Meh.

Posted: 3/21/2009 12:33 AM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

MUGG: damage boosting's only worthwhile if you can manipulate health pickups en route; the healing you get when you pick up the Triforce shard takes longer than the boost gains you. Tompa's point about rooms visited, bushes burned, etc. is a good one and reveals why this issue is so murky. I still (mostly) maintain my stance -- I'm a bit iffy on the blue ring mainly because it's still available for purchase after you've bought it once (right?).

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 3/21/2009 2:52 AM

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alucard

Joined: 4/19/2008
Posts: 31
Location: Chicago

When people think 100% in an open-ended game like this, you think item collection. Not "visit this room", etc. There's only one series that I can recall that counts room percentage and....that's it. If they had implemented an item collection percent, I honestly believe they would have counted things such as the white sword and the blue ring. The two upgrades are definitely debatable, but I think that they would have been counted as well. Let's look at every other game that has any sort of 100% objective to it. Do you honestly need anything beyond 50% in most of them? No, you really don't. Let's take Super Metroid for example. You're at 99% and missing some missile upgrade. Do you need it to complete the game? No, not at all, because you have plenty of them/better upgraded items to use at will. Do you need it to complete the game with a 100% completion rate? Absolutely. edit: What I'm really trying to say is, just because it's obsoleted/unused, doesn't mean it doesn't count.

Posted: 3/21/2009 6:20 AM

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Xkeeper

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850

Tompa wrote:

So shall visiting all rooms in a dungeon be a must for a 100% run as well? Open all locks and bomb all the walls. You will also have to burn all the bushes in the overworld. etc. Meh.

Much like the SM 100% TAS, it should just collect all permanent items. So it should go for the white sword, blue ring, etc.

I will not be collecting the bomb upgrades since they serve no purpose other than to give you more of an item that you already have. I will also be skipping the medicine for the same reason. I will be collecting the letter though.

Again, like the Metroid TASes, this is exactly what missile packs and reserve tanks do, and they are still collected. In short, make it a real 100%.

Perma-banned

Posted: 3/21/2009 6:57 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (277)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Xkeeper wrote:

Much like the SM 100% TAS, it should just collect all permanent items. So it should go for the white sword, blue ring, etc.

But they're not permanent if they can be replaced with a better sword or ring.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 3/21/2009 7:04 AM
(Edited: 3/21/2009 7:19 AM)

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jprofit22

Player (50)

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 100

I knew I'd get this thread going again! On the topic of 100%. I understand all your points and agree with most, but until TASvideos actually posts a list which dictates what 100% should constitute I'm not going to worry about the trivials and I'll stick with what I consider to be 100%. After all, this is just a test run and what I assume is unsubmittable until a desicion is reached (which may never happen...). On the point of exiting and reentering Lvl 1; This is a well known glitch to auto-unlock the first door of the dungeon. About damage boosting; I may well be able to damage boost a few more times than i did and still have full health upon getting a given triforce, but over-boosting would force me to take time somewhere else to kill enemies to refill that health and that is usually detrimental to the time of the run. I do a modest amount of enemy drop planning and most of the time it's just faster not to damage boost. About the blue/red rings; the blue ring is indeed available for purchase at any point in the game (even after collecting the red ring). Some have compared getting the blue ring and white sword to getting items in Super Metroid. This line of thinking is fundamentally flawed because no item in Super Metroid actually obsoletes any other. You may never use the grappling beam or x-ray visor, but they still serve a distinct purpose and are never replaced by a stronger or better item. In the LOZ A Link to the Past 100% you must have the master sword at its final level but if I remember correctly you can skip 1 of the sword upgrades and still get it to max power, and I believe this is accepted. It doesn't matter how you get it there it just matters that it is the most powerful version at the end of the game. Please remember that this run is generally for entertainment and learning purposes and is not intended to be submitted. Thanks for all the feedback! I hope to have WIP 2 up within a couple days.

Posted: 3/21/2009 7:12 AM

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Xkeeper

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850

jprofit22 wrote:

TASvideos actually posts a list which dictates what 100% should constitute

TASvideos is a collective, not a single entitiy. That being said, 100% is different depending on game. BoMF: True, I guess. But it just seems better to go for everything.

Perma-banned

Posted: 3/21/2009 7:22 AM

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jprofit22

Player (50)

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 100

Xkeeper reread my post and tell me what you think. I've added a couple points that I think are relevant.

Posted: 3/21/2009 9:05 AM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2141)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

I guess that people didn't understand that I wasn't serious at all. I think that doing all that kinds of stuff is useless and boring. Go by the SDA definition, shouldn't be harder that that to be honest.

Posted: 3/21/2009 8:52 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (277)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

jprofit22 wrote:

Some have compared getting the blue ring and white sword to getting items in Super Metroid. This line of thinking is fundamentally flawed because no item in Super Metroid actually obsoletes any other.

Right, it's better to compare it to the first two Metroid games, where each beam you collect replaces the previous one. Even if you collect every beam, you still only keep the last one you took. I recall the first game even has more energy tanks than you can hold, so the last couple tanks refill your energy and stay gone after you grab them, but they don't add to your maximum energy.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 3/21/2009 9:20 PM

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Spider-Waffle

Banned User

Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049

I was wondering how the glitch works where you place a bomb and walk through a block. Does this require frame perfect precision, or is it possible in real time?

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

Posted: 3/21/2009 9:32 PM

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alden

Player (120)

Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522

You don't need a bomb, and yes, it requires 1-frame precision. I don't remember the exact timing, but it requires holding a perpendicular direction for 1 frame which throws off the step pattern so you don't hit the boundary of the block. It's the same thing that allows for walking out of bounds/screen wrapping in the overworld. Not to say it's impossible in real time, but it's hard.

I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs

Posted: 3/21/2009 9:35 PM

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Baxter

Skilled player (1402)

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821

Spider-Waffle wrote:

I was wondering how the glitch works where you place a bomb and walk through a block. Does this require frame perfect precision, or is it possible in real time?

Placing a bomb is actually not needed at all. I discovered it while placing a bomb, and assumed it was needed, but it turned out it wasn't needed after all. The glitch is done by, shortly before you reach the block, moving backwards a frame by pressing a sidewards direction to where link is moving. This will change the subpixel position in a way that the game skips the solid pixel when link reaches the block. It can move link half a tile into a solid block, which means that you can pass diagonal block formations, as link can stand halfway inside the block naturally anyway. It also turned out that this glitch could be used to move from one side of the screen to the other in the overworld. I'd strongly suggest you to watch the recent second quest TAS, which features all latest findings. The glitch can't be done in real time, as it requirs frame precision.

http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html

Posted: 3/23/2009 9:37 AM

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Spider-Waffle

Banned User

Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049

So is the first quest in the works now? And why isn't there a media file of that movie yet? What input do you need exactly for the the trick to work. It seemed sometimes I saw you press perpendicular to the block for more than 1 frame and somtimes I think I even saw away from block. And do you have to press perpendicular exactly right before you touch the block? Also why can't you use use this to warp up through a horizontal row of blocks?

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

Posted: 3/23/2009 9:38 AM

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Spider-Waffle

Banned User

Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049

So is the first quest in the works now? And why isn't there a media file of that movie yet? What input do you need exactly for the the trick to work. It seemed sometimes I saw you press perpendicular to the block for more than 1 frame and somtimes I think I even saw away from block. And do you have to press perpendicular exactly right before you touch the block? Also why can't you use use this to go up through a horizontal row of blocks?

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."