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Posted: 4/14/2004 2:42 AM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I have a question. After level 5, how many times will you have to blow the whistle to get to level 1? I also have a few comments about your route. You would need to get 40 rupees along the way, not 30. Also, it might be faster to get the bait on the way to the whistle instead of on the way to after level 2. Also, you would have to blow the whistle twice to get to level 3 since you warp to level 1 first. Anyway, I'll go test that trick I was thinking of involving the whistle to see if it works. Edit: Ok, I tested the whistle trick and it works. When you whistle past a level (such as from 3 to 1), you normally have to whistle to the levels in between (which would be 2 in this case). Instead, you can just blow the whistle, change screens (since you can't summon the whirlwind twice on the same screen), and blow it again. However, blowing the whistle, changing screens, and blowing the whistle again would be too slow, so it's better to add in the extra whistle blow on the way to some other level, and then the screen change wouldn't be wasted and you would go to the correct level the next time you use the whistle. Taking all of this into account, I'll see if I can come up with a new route where this can be used to save time. Edit 2: Another thing I forgot to mention is that you can also blow the whistle and then do Up+A.
Posted: 4/14/2004 2:58 AM
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Sleepz
Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael Fried wrote:
I have a question. After level 5, how many times will you have to blow the whistle to get to level 1? I also have a few comments about your route. You would need to get 40 rupees along the way, not 30. Also, it might be faster to get the bait on the way to the whistle instead of on the way to after level 2. Also, you would have to blow the whistle twice to get to level 3 since you warp to level 1 first. Anyway, I'll go test that trick I was thinking of involving the whistle to see if it works.
-After 5, you would face right and blow the whistle once. -No, you only need 30. Remember, you walk into the gambling game with 10 rupees already. -The fastest way to get the bait is on route from 2 to 8, since it is completely on path, and you need to switch to candle to uncover 8 anyways. -Yes, you would blow the whistle twice to get to 3. Also, slight add-on to my route: -Right after 7, Up+A, then use whistle to 1.
Posted: 4/14/2004 3:23 AM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
-After 5, you would face right and blow the whistle once. Ok, that's good, for some reason I thought you would have to blow it twice. -No, you only need 30. Remember, you walk into the gambling game with 10 rupees already. Oops, I forgot about that, so I guess you're right. Also, 10 of those 30 rupees can be easily gotten from the rupee room in level 4. -The fastest way to get the bait is on route from 2 to 8, since it is completely on path, and you need to switch to candle to uncover 8 anyways. If you get it on the way from 2 to 8, you would need to take the right path instead of the left path down to level 8, which wastes time. It might be faster to go to level 8 before level 2. -Yes, you would blow the whistle twice to get to 3. Right after whistling to level 1, blow the whistle again (without getting caught by the whirlwind of course). That way you only need to blow the whistle once to get to level 3. Also do the same right after whistling to level 3 so you only need to blow it once to get to level 1. -Right after 7, Up+A, then use whistle to 1. If you do level 7 before 2 and 8, you won't need to do Up+A because you can whistle right away after 2 or 8. Then you could just get the bait on the way to level 6. I'm not sure if this would save or waste more time. Do you know if you need a bomb to open the bait cave on the way to level 6? Anyway, I have to go now, I'll be back tomorrow to discuss this more.
Posted: 4/14/2004 2:46 PM
(Edited: 4/14/2004 7:33 PM)
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I think it's faster to do 7 before 2+8 so you don't need to do Up+A before warping to 1. I don't think it should be to much trouble to have enough rupees for the bait and arrows by the end of level 1. Between level 3, level 4, the rupee room in level 4, and the overworld enemies, that should be at least 40 rupees (which is how much you need in addition to the gambling game rupees). I'm not sure, but I think that after warping to near level 5 it's slightly faster to go to 8 then 2 rather than 2 then 8. Based on all this, we have it narrowed down to 2 overworld routes that you need to time, and after comparing the difference between these routes to the amount of time that the white sword saves in level 6, we'll know which is the best route. Here are the 2 routes that should be timed (and don't forget the whistle trick): First Route: First sword Up+A L3, raft Up+A Gambling game 4x Blue candle L4, ladder Up+A L1, bow White sword L5, whistle Whistle to 1 Blow whistle while facing right Bait Arrows Power Bracelet L6 Whistle to 3 Blow whistle while facing left L7 Up+A Right 2 and warp to near 5 L8 L2 Whistle to 1 L9, silver arrows Second Route: First sword Up+A L3, raft Up+A Gambling game 4x Blue candle L4, ladder Up+A L1, bow Bait Arrows Power Bracelet L6 Up+A Right 2 and warp to near 5 White Sword L5 Whistle to 3 (if this would require 2 whistle blows, just change screens after the first one instead of getting caught by the whirlwind) Blow whistle while facing left L7 Up+A Right 2 and warp to near 5 L8 L2 Whistle to 1 L9, silver arrows Edit: Sleepz, I noticed you said that a few levels will be slower than my video because you have a worse sword, but don't forget that I take a big detour in level 8 to get the magic key, so your total dungeon time will probably beat mine. Edit 2: I have another 2 questions. Are you going to go out of the way to get any of the keys, or will all the keys be on your path? Also, are you going to do the key glitch in level 1? Edit 3: I just timed the key glitch, and it wastes about 6.35 seconds, which is about how much time killing a room full of darknuts with the white sword wastes. I'm pretty sure that it's better not to do the key glitch. Edit 4: When planning the keys, I noticed these routes have a problem because 7 needs to be after 2, so the 2 possible routes are 341568279 and 341658279. Edit 5: My estimate is that the white sword saves 10 seconds in level 6. Edit 6: I have another question. In the 341658279 route, how many times do you have to blow the whistle to get to 3?
Posted: 4/14/2004 5:12 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I'm going to count how many keys will be used in each level to make it easier to figure out which keys to get and then I'll post it here. Edit: Level 1: 4 (3 if key glitch is used) Level 2: 0 Level 3: 1 Level 4: 1 Level 5: 3 Level 6: 2 Level 7: 3 Level 8: 1 Level 9: 3 Total: 18 Now I'll check how many keys are on the way and don't require killing optional enemies. I'll have to rely on my memory unless someone has maps that show which keys are already in the room when you get there and which keys you get from enemies. Edit 2: This is too hard, I'll just count all the keys that are on the way. Level 1: 4 Level 2: 3 Level 3: 2 Level 4: 2 Level 5: 4 Level 6: 3 Level 7: 0 Level 8: 2 (1 if you don't count the one just before the boss) Level 9: 2 Total: 22 Unneeded: 4 Now I have to decide which 4 take the longest to get. Edit 3: Now I'll write up a plan for which keys to get based on the route that will probably end up being used. For each level, I'll add the number of keys that you already have to the number of keys you get in that level and subtract the number of keys used in that level. Level 3: 2-1=1 Level 4: 1+2-1=2 Level 1: 2+4-4=2 (key glitch not used) Level 5: 2+2-3=1 (skip the 2 keys in the rooms with 5 gibdos) Level 6: 1+3-2=2 Level 8: 2+1-1=2 (skip the key before the boss, also I had to change my mind about level 7 because of the keys, so level 7 has to come later) Level 2: 2+3-0=5 Level 7: 5+0-3=2 Level 9: 2+1-3=0 (skip the key 2 rooms up from the start)
Posted: 4/14/2004 7:43 PM
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Sleepz
Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
omg, I just found a faster route than my previous "final revised route". Before I post the "Final final revised route", Ill time the two new routes you came up with, to see if they're faster still. Thanks for doing the key count. I didnt get a chance to do it yet because I keep revising the route. I'm pretty confident that were almost at the fastest route possible.
Posted: 4/14/2004 8:16 PM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
Oh Jesus. Another fastest? We're going to need to redefine "fastest." TSA told me his route last night. It's slower than ours, and for his privacy I'm not going to tell you guys. But in the conversation he revealed other interesting things. He said he doesn't even use the sword in level 6. He completes it entirely with bombs. Because of this, I don't think that the sword makes too much of a difference in this level. So you could use my bracelet route, if the new routes aren't faster. (Presuming time saved by white sword is < extra screen.) He also made me feel stupid by reminding me that there's a ladder on the screen with the heart container above level 2. For some reason I never saw it there. I always counted an extra screen detour to walk right from the screen, to use those stairs. I hope I'm the only one who made this foolish mistake. He said you could hit Ganon without having to move if you do it fast enough. I don't remember the vids, if you guys did this or not. Check to see if it works when you're finally there. Also, the white sword vs. magical in level 9 came up. I mentioned like-likes, and he said you didn't have to fight them. I watched Michael's vid, and he did it correctly. But this Japanese guy fought all those like-likes! That's retarded. He through me off because I just assumed he would have taken the shortest level routes.
Posted: 4/14/2004 8:27 PM
(Edited: 4/14/2004 8:33 PM)
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Sleepz, forget those 2 routes I posted because they don't work. 7 has to be after 8 and 2. These are the 2 routes that need to be tested (unless you already tested them). I'll start after level 1. White Sword Level 5 Whistle to 1 and the whistle trick Arrows Power Bracelet Level 6 Up+A, right 2, and warp near 5 Level 8 Level 2 Whistle to 3 and the whistle trick Level 7 Up+A Whistle to 1 Level 9 Arrows Power Bracelet Level 6 Up+A, right 2, and warp near 5 White Sword Level 5 Up+A, right 2, and warp near 5 Level 8 Level 2 Whistle to 3 and the whistle trick Level 7 Up+A Whistle to 1 Level 9 By the way, in case anyone is wondering, the whistle trick I posted about is the same as the trick MKM was talking about at Twin Galaxies. I know this because when I posted about it at ZHQ, TSA said "Yeah...you found out the recorder trick, didn't you? I bet the TG fellows will be mad." Edit: I hope Sleepz reads this before testing the routes with 7 before 8 and 2. I wouldn't want him to waste all that time for nothing.
Posted: 4/14/2004 8:31 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Ramzi wrote:
Oh Jesus. Another fastest? We're going to need to redefine "fastest."
At the first month of the nesvideos page the movies were labeled "played timewise perfectly". When the fact that they weren't perfect bothered me enough, I changed it to "as fast as possible". Fastest, perfect, etc are very relative words and subject to change any time :)
Posted: 4/14/2004 8:43 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Because of this, I don't think that the sword makes too much of a difference in this level. Just because TSA doesn't use the sword in level 6 doesn't mean using the sword doesn't save time. If you use both bombs and the sword, you can attack more enemies at once (however you can't attack the same enemy many times quickly because you have to wait for it to stop flashing before you can hurt it again). Another advantage of using the sword is that you can attack from a distance. However, I think it's best to wait for Sleepz to time the routes and see what the difference is before we try to figure out how much time the white sword saves. Also, keep in mind that when Sleepz tests the 2 routes they'll be significantly faster than the 2 routes he tested awhile ago because of the whistle trick (unless he knew about it already). By the way, I knew about that thing you said about Ganon, except in my video, I did have to move after the first time I hit him but not after the second or third. It didn't matter anyway because he was close enough that I was able to hit him immediately after he disappear. I also noticed the thing about the Like Likes. I guess that shows that you should always have a map in front of you while making Zelda speed runs.
Posted: 4/14/2004 9:14 PM
(Edited: 4/14/2004 9:24 PM)
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Sleepz
Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael Fried wrote:
By the way, in case anyone is wondering, the whistle trick I posted about is the same as the trick MKM was talking about at Twin Galaxies. I know this because when I posted about it at ZHQ, TSA said "Yeah...you found out the recorder trick, didn't you? I bet the TG fellows will be mad." Edit: I hope Sleepz reads this before testing the routes with 7 before 8 and 2. I wouldn't want him to waste all that time for nothing.
Thats the "Flute Mastery" they were talking about? I thought it was some huge trick like whistling to L9 or an unfinished dungeon. Yes, all the times I've been recording include the whistle trick. Now I know our routes are faster for sure. Here are the times for the two routes you came up with: White Sword Level 5 Whistle to 1 and the whistle trick Arrows Power Bracelet Level 6 Up+A, right 2, and warp near 5 Level 8 Level 2 Whistle to 3 and the whistle trick Level 7 Up+A Whistle to 1 Level 9 Time = 7:16 Arrows Power Bracelet Level 6 Up+A, right 2, and warp near 5 White Sword Level 5 Up+A, right 2, and warp near 5 Level 8 Level 2 Whistle to 3 and the whistle trick Level 7 Up+A Whistle to 1 Level 9 Time = 7:15 Edit: Sorry, I forgot to add in the 11 seconds it takes getting the white sword. The time for your second route is actually 7:15 instead of 7:04.
Posted: 4/14/2004 9:20 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Does your faster route involve having the white sword for fewer levels?
Posted: 4/14/2004 9:25 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
White Sword Level 5 Whistle to 1 and the whistle trick Arrows Power Bracelet Level 6 Up+A, right 2, and warp near 5 Level 8 Level 2 Whistle to 3 and the whistle trick Level 7 Up+A Whistle to 1 Level 9 Time = 7:16 Arrows Power Bracelet Level 6 Up+A, right 2, and warp near 5 White Sword Level 5 Up+A, right 2, and warp near 5 Level 8 Level 2 Whistle to 3 and the whistle trick Level 7 Up+A Whistle to 1 Level 9 Time = 7:04 Ramzi's newest route: 341652879 = 7:23(wooden sword for 6 though) Sleepz newest route: 341562879 = 7:24 How can my 2 new routes be so much faster than those other 2 routes you timed if they're just about the same? Does doing 8 before 2 really save that much time? Did you do anything else different besides just switching 8 and 2?
Posted: 4/14/2004 9:32 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I have a question. How do you time all these overworld routes? If you start from the beginning, you won't have the whistle and if you start using a file with 1-8 beaten already, the level the whistle takes you to might not be the same.
Posted: 4/14/2004 9:38 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
So what's that sub-7 route you came up with? It's hard to imagine anything faster than what we already have.
Posted: 4/14/2004 9:49 PM
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Sleepz
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Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael Fried wrote:
Ramzi's newest route: 341652879 = 7:23(wooden sword for 6 though) Sleepz newest route: 341562879 = 7:24[/i] How can my 2 new routes be so much faster than those other 2 routes you timed if they're just about the same? Does doing 8 before 2 really save that much time? Did you do anything else different besides just switching 8 and 2?
Those routes assumed having Gambling x5. All the route times I posted after that involved x4 Gambling. But, here is my newest route: 1.L3 2.Up+A 3.Gamble x2 4.Blue Candle 5.L4 6.Up+A 7.L1 8.White Sword 9.L5 10.Up+A 11.100 rupees 12.L8 13.Meat 14.L2 15.Whistle to L1 16.Arrows 17.L6 18.Whistle to L3 19.L7 20.Up+A 21.Whistle to L1 22.L9 Time = 7:07 30 rupees are needed before the arrow shop. but if you make this change: -Gambling x1 -80 rupees are needed before the arrow shop Time = 6:59 That would get you your sub-7. I dont know how easy or hard it is to collect 80 rupees on route through 6 dungeons, but if you did, you can easily get a total time of under 27:30. I dont know how to make this route any faster. I've been trying to change it around all night, but anything I change only seems to make it slower. The only blemish in it is that you do L7 last, so you need to Up+A before you whistle. But, if you do 2 and 8 after 7, you lose the time saved on the on route meat shop (this is 5.5 seconds faster than either 4 to 1 meat shop or 1 to 6 meat shop which requires a bomb.) If you did any other level after 7, then you would still have the problem of using Up+A before whistling.
Posted: 4/14/2004 10:08 PM
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Sleepz
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Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael Fried wrote:
I have a question. How do you time all these overworld routes? If you start from the beginning, you won't have the whistle and if you start using a file with 1-8 beaten already, the level the whistle takes you to might not be the same.
I made a recording that gets bombs, raft, ladder. Whenever I test a new route, I just continue from L1 once I exit. I dont time everything that is recorded afterwards, just the parts I need to test. The rest of the times I need to fill in are the gambling game and the whistle time which you already recorded: Edit 2: Whistle blowing takes exactly 7.95 seconds from pressing B to getting control of Link. Edit 5: The gambling game (in a cave) takes exactly 8.05 seconds (assuming the middle rupee is chosen). My timing of the routes are accurate and rounded to a half second. So, as long as the data you recorded is accurate as well, then the times I post should be accurate.
Posted: 4/14/2004 11:04 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
My times for the different caves might not always be accurate because sometimes the old man takes slightly longer to load. That route you suggested definitely makes sense, I don't know why I didn't think of that before. Not taking the warp to get to 2 and 8 faster is 1 screen longer. Since you get 100 rupees on the way instead of 2 of the gambling games, this saves about 11, which more than makes up for the extra screen. You can't avoid having 7 as the last level, because even if you do 6 after 7, you still have to do Up+A before whistling to 1 for 6. The only thing that could be put after 7 to avoid the Up+A is 8 and 2, but that would waste more than it gains, not only because of the bait but also because of the keys. By the way, are you sure Up+A is faster than just going down a screen after level 7?
Posted: 4/14/2004 11:12 PM
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Sleepz
Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael Fried wrote:
My times for the different caves might not always be accurate because sometimes the old man takes slightly longer to load. By the way, are you sure Up+A is faster than just going down a screen after level 7?
Hopefully, we can use rerecord to get the fastest load time. As for L7, I'm pretty sure Up+A is faster because when you exit 7, you start at the top of the lake. Dunno, Ill have to check.
Posted: 4/14/2004 11:18 PM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
Getting 80 rupees seems a little impractical. Watch the Japanese guy's video to see what I mean. I watched it at 500%. Level 3: 6 Level 4: 33 Level 2: 20 Level 1: 0 Level 6: 20 Level 8: 0 Level 5: Not many. Okay, those are sketchy. (VERY SKETCHY!) I looked at the rupees dropped, not picked up. Note level 6 is in there. Level 4 has the rupee room, and the snakes in level 2 give you tons of cash. Say you get 50 between those 2 levels, you need 30 more in 3, 1, 8, and 5. From what I've seen, darknuts not only are hard as hell, but they're cheap bastards too. If you can pick up scraps (1 rupees,) as you go, maybe, maybe you can pull off getting 80. Also, maybe if you're lucky baddies on the overworld will give some too. Don't read from here: ------------------------------------------------------- Here's a stupid idea. Probably best you don't waste time reading it. If you are going to go for 80 rupees, why not getting the boomerang. (For what it's worth, on real life runs, the boomerang and the bomb upgrades are a must.) I think the boomerang may save time collecting rupees on the screen. Someone check if it can pick up the awards given after completing certain rooms. Three moblins with the first sword for the boomerang in level 1... Aside from rupees, There is 1 bat room in level 6, where you must kill them to open a door. It has 8 bats. If you can kill the three moblins with 1 cleverly placed bomb, why not? My concern is how long it takes for the start screen to go up and down. You'd have to do it twice, once to switch to it, and once to switch back. It'd be a nice little thing to watch, a boomerang wiping out a buncha bats, but it's probably not practical.
Posted: 4/14/2004 11:24 PM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
Sleepz wrote:
That would get you your sub-7. I dont know how easy or hard it is to collect 80 rupees on route through 6 dungeons, but if you did, you can easily get a total time of under 27:30.
As Michael mentioned earlier, you forgot that he gets the magical key in level 8. This is a detour over 50 seconds. Getting a sub-27, once thought impossible and CA-RAZY, is now accomplished. New goal, sub-26. :-P It'll never happen. I think we're looking at a video somewhere around 26:40.
Posted: 4/14/2004 11:29 PM
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kopernical
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Joined: 3/24/2004
Posts: 132
Location: Indiana
Ramzi wrote:
Don't read from here: ------------------------------------------------------- Here's a stupid idea. Probably best you don't waste time reading it. If you are going to go for 80 rupees, why not getting the boomerang.
Then why'd you wasting time posting it :P
Posted: 4/14/2004 11:37 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I don't think that getting the boomerang is worth it. It takes to long to switch items, and it would barely save any time. I think I killed those bats (or keese, or whatever you want to call them) fast enough without the boomerang.
Posted: 4/14/2004 11:39 PM
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Sleepz
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Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Even if you could save 8 seconds on the overworld, you might waste more than 8 seconds collecting rupees in the dungeons. Its only good if all the money is totally on path. And I think Ill pass on the boomerang idea :)
Posted: 4/14/2004 11:43 PM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
It's fun watching you guys bounce around. I'm at the ZHQ forum, I see that Michael's on. I bounce back, I see he's posted here. I also notice Sleepz is on. I refresh, and Sleepz posts. lol. We should all just idle in the chat. Since we're in the same place at the same time so much, we might as well check if we're on at the same time in the chat.
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