The name TASVideos doesn't stand for Tool-Assisted Speedrun Videos, it stands for Tool-Assisted Superplay Videos, and it always has (AFAIK).
Actually no. The name comes originally from the Doom speedrunning community, from much earlier than the nesvideos (not to talk about tasvideos) site even existed, where "TAS" was originally short for "tools-assisted speedrun". The same acronym was adopted here, originally with the same meaning. I know. I was there.
Some time along the line during the earlier years of the site some people wanted to change the meaning of that "S", so they suggested a convenient alternative, "superplay". In other words, "TAS" became a so-called backronym.
Anybody who claims otherwise is engaging in historical revisionism. Now everybody is repeating the mantra "the S doesn't stand for speedrun!" like it were absolute gospel.
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Edit by moderator: This thread has been split from Branch for Saturn's Chrono Trigger and Speed and entertainment requirements, tiers - split 14293.
The name TASVideos doesn't stand for Tool-Assisted Speedrun Videos, it stands for Tool-Assisted Superplay Videos, and it always has (AFAIK).
Actually no. The name comes originally from the Doom speedrunning community, from much earlier than the nesvideos (not to talk about tasvideos) site even existed, where "TAS" was originally short for "tools-assisted speedrun". The same acronym was adopted here, originally with the same meaning. I know. I was there.
Some time along the line during the earlier years of the site some people wanted to change the meaning of that "S", so they suggested a convenient alternative, "superplay". In other words, "TAS" became a so-called backronym.
Anybody who claims otherwise is engaging in historical revisionism. Now everybody is repeating the mantra "the S doesn't stand for speedrun!" like it were absolute gospel.
Didn't know the history, thanks! (I joined later.) I'll correct the post.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
Patashu wrote:
The name TASVideos doesn't stand for Tool-Assisted Speedrun Videos, it stands for Tool-Assisted Superplay Videos, and it always has (AFAIK).
Actually no. The name comes originally from the Doom speedrunning community, from much earlier than the nesvideos (not to talk about tasvideos) site even existed, where "TAS" was originally short for "tools-assisted speedrun". The same acronym was adopted here, originally with the same meaning. I know. I was there.
Some time along the line during the earlier years of the site some people wanted to change the meaning of that "S", so they suggested a convenient alternative, "superplay". In other words, "TAS" became a so-called backronym.
Anybody who claims otherwise is engaging in historical revisionism. Now everybody is repeating the mantra "the S doesn't stand for speedrun!" like it were absolute gospel.
I wish you would stop it with this nonsense.
1) Doom runs were published on the site early on (like the first week of the site), the doom run community may have called them TASs or whatever, our site called them "Time Attacks".
2) The site becomes NESVideos in early 2004 because it's primarily about NES tool-assisted speed runs, called "Time Attacks" and also "Superplays" which were inclusive of both "Time Attacks" as well as "playarounds" of NES games like River City Randsom. Even though uses of the term tool-assisted, and mentions about tool-assisted "Time Attacks" or speedruns were common, the acronym "TAS" was not used commonly in discussions until mid-2005.
3) After the addition of SNES, Gameboy, and Genesis, in 2006 people talk about renaming the site because NESVideos doesn't really apply anymore, and different ideas are discussed, everyone agrees they want to make the name more generic. The idea TASVideos is suggested because TAS in Doom community meant Tool-Assisted Speedrun. This idea is rejected because the site contained non-speed runs, labeled "playarounds", and runs which exchanged speed for entertainment.
4) Someone suggested we call it TASVideos if we define it as Tool-Assisted Superplays, because we commonly used the term "Superplay" on the site, and it was inclusive of all our content, and it would also satisfy those who suggested we use the name. In late 2006, Bisqwit has the site renamed to TASVideos, and the graphic you see on the above left which says "Tool-assisted superplay movies" is introduced. "TAS" becomes the primary way we refer to all our videos. The term "Time Attack" is no longer used anywhere.
5) Post 2010, every time someone reminds Warp that when the site was called TASVideos, on day one of it using the name, it meant Tool-Assisted Superplays, Warp responds with "but that's not what the Doom community used TAS to mean or what people used in conversations before the site was officially renamed TASVideos".
6) Post 2010, nearly every time Warp brings this up, Nach or others remind Warp that the site TASVideos was using Tool-Assisted Superplays as the meaning of it's own name since it had the name TASVideos.
7) Post 2017, Warp now claims Nach and others are participating in historical revisionism.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
5) Post 2010, every time someone reminds Warp
6) Post 2010, nearly every time Warp brings this up
7) Post 2017, Warp now claims
Haven't we gone through enough instances of personal attacks against me from the part of the site staff? Do we really need to go through yet another one, and from you of all people?
If you want to state facts as you see/remember them, then state them as facts, in a neutral manner. Don't go into passive-aggressive personal attacks with "Warp says this, Warp says that". Have some professionalism, especially given your position.
Joined: 3/9/2004
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Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
5) Post 2010, every time someone reminds Warp
6) Post 2010, nearly every time Warp brings this up
7) Post 2017, Warp now claims
Haven't we gone through enough instances of personal attacks against me from the part of the site staff? Do we really need to go through yet another one, and from you of all people?
If you want to state facts as you see/remember them, then state them as facts, in a neutral manner. Don't go into passive-aggressive personal attacks with "Warp says this, Warp says that". Have some professionalism, especially given your position.
You keep making up your own version of events regarding what the site is about. As long as you do so, I will continue to attack you for it.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 3/9/2004
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Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
You keep making up your own version of events regarding what the site is about. As long as you do so, I will continue to attack you for it.
Very professional and classy. Great job.
Thank you, I appreciate your compliment.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
You keep making up your own version of events regarding what the site is about. As long as you do so, I will continue to attack you for it.
Very professional and classy. Great job.
Thank you, I appreciate your compliment.
Stop being an ------- and start acting your position as site manager.
My position as site manager is to defend the site against the notion that we are not and have not always been about Superplays. Comments such as "Anybody who claims otherwise is engaging in historical revisionism" against our position regarding Superplays will be treated with the cold hard facts as just done earlier.
Our site was, is, and will continue to be about Superplays. No apologies will be made for what we are about.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
My position as site manager is to defend the site against the notion that we are not and have not always been about Superplays. Comments such as "Anybody who claims otherwise is engaging in historical revisionism" against our position regarding Superplays will be treated with the cold hard facts as just done earlier.
Our site was, is, and will continue to be about Superplays. No apologies will be made for what we are about.
You did not simply state facts in a neutral manner. You wrote it as a passive-aggressive mockery against me.
I'm getting really tired of the complete unprofessionalism that some members of the site staff have demonstrated, and keep demonstrating, over the years. There have been personal attacks, insults, swearwords and mockery, both in private and in public. There have been threads with explicit mockery against me in their titles, created by site staff.
If some random user does that, then that's one thing. They should be moderated as usual. But when the site staff starts doing that, that crosses a line of professionalism big time. You don't need to like me; I don't mind that. If you don't like what I'm saying, that's also fine. You are free to disagree and critique. But when you start publicly attacking me and passive-aggressively mocking me, that crosses a line.
If your intent was to make me angry, then congratulations. You succeeded, big time. You can't believe how much restraint I am putting myself through in order to avoid writing swearwords here. I expected more from you in particular.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
You did not simply state facts in a neutral manner.
No, I didn't, neither did you.
Warp wrote:
You wrote it as a passive-aggressive mockery against me.
I didn't intend it that way.
Warp wrote:
I'm getting really tired of the complete unprofessionalism that some members of the site staff have demonstrated, and keep demonstrating, over the years. There have been personal attacks, insults, swearwords and mockery, both in private and in public. There have been threads with explicit mockery against me in their titles, created by site staff.
I don't think that's appropriate. If you have a specific problem like that with a new thread, please contact me.
Warp wrote:
If your intent was to make me angry, then congratulations. You succeeded, big time.
My intent was to set the record straight. The last segment was in direct response to you claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is rewriting history. Whether my post makes you angry or not is not relevant to me. As I said, I'm here to defend the essence of the site against anyone who attempts to diminish it or present a concept that we should be accepting less videos that are entertaining.
River City Ransom, a non-speedrun "playaround" was accepted as one of the first runs on the site.
It was later obsoleted by a run which spent even more time playing around. You stated your objection to it in that thread.
The essence of our site has been from the start about Superplays. Whether that means speed or not is not the deciding factor, even if that's usually the case.
As Bisqwit wrote:
As for objectivity, the thing is that we aim for a subjective measure: entertainment. Entertainment is not a mathematical formula. It cannot be objectively measured; it needs a number of subjective components, the human audience.
Speed, etc. are just devices to create entertainment. Even though speed can be measured accurately, entertainment cannot. This is a fact, and we have to live with it. Our method of judging that is a variation of something called "consensus". Your mileage may vary.
And from our old Why and How page:
Our primary goals are to create art and provide entertainment.
A movie is entertaining when it is:
* Interesting (not slow, boring, or repetitive)
* Surprising (does the unexpected)
* Skillful (handles awkward situations efficiently and creatively)
and our main goal is to create movies that are beautiful to watch.
I will zealously defend our site against anyone who defies this or tries to make us buckle to outside forces.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I will zealously defend our site against anyone who defies this or tries to make us buckle to outside forces.
You know, Nach, you've seen some share of unpopularity in these forums before. I don't think it's because you're a bad guy, it's just that you occasionally make some bad taste jokes (like stating in your location that you torture TASers and forumers) and that you like to judge controversial submissions, but I'm afraid I must press you on this. That looks like it was taken straight out of the soviet Pravda.
Could you elaborate on what's morally wrong about suggesting that, maybe it's a better idea to avoid bowing to newcomer tastes in order to avoid institutional chaos? It seemed to me we were having a nice discussion here, and while people were not agreeing, we were making progress towards some understanding.
Also, where does your self-appointed zealotry as defender of the faith come from? Do you have a PhD on entertainment business or you just happened to be around when Bisqwit was not having so much time to manage the site anymore?
As Bisqwit wrote:
As for objectivity, the thing is that we aim for a subjective measure: entertainment. Entertainment is not a mathematical formula. It cannot be objectively measured; it needs a number of subjective components, the human audience.
Speed, etc. are just devices to create entertainment. Even though speed can be measured accurately, entertainment cannot. This is a fact, and we have to live with it. Our method of judging that is a variation of something called "consensus". Your mileage may vary.
And from our old Why and How page:
Our primary goals are to create art and provide entertainment.
A movie is entertaining when it is:
* Interesting (not slow, boring, or repetitive)
* Surprising (does the unexpected)
* Skillful (handles awkward situations efficiently and creatively)
and our main goal is to create movies that are beautiful to watch.
I only joined in 2010, but this is what made me fall in love with tasing. I was very naive and excited, but some time later I came up with a page describing how to make art while tasing:
http://tasvideos.org/TasingGuide/TASArt.html
I've put all the best knowledge, feelings and ideas into that page, and some people that have created top-notch tases expressed that that page inspires them.
It isn't about a page. It is about what you feel and what you end up doing as a result. Creativity and art has always been praised here. But technicality and research have been praised just as much.
What I'm trying to say, some people keep this excitement over the years, they just grow, and let their hobby grow with them, reaching new levels of skill and inspiration. Standing ovations at ADGQ 2014 TAS Block, is it a clickbait that keeps repeating the same thing over and over? No. It is a revolution in people's mindsets. How many people remember annoyances between RTA and TAS communities? I also remember how RTA people started pulling off TAS strats in real time. It was also a revolution in people's minds. Nowadays TAS Block is a major highlight of a GDQ event, people wait for it and most of the time they love it.
On the other side, there are people that have lost this inspiration. They don't feel any soul behind TAS art anymore. It's sad, but it is more sad when they feel like pushing for some ideas that are impossible to implement on a huge scale.
I've been dealing with controversial cases for all these years, in some way or another, with different level of absurd involved. I happened to come up with ideas that have worked for all the conflicting camps. And I can assure you that it is not possible to enforce subjective and arbitrary ideas like absolute and objective policies. It does not work, it never did, it never will. No one will be happy if we start doing that, and we will not.
It is only possible to enforce something that can be objectively defined and evaluated. Yet it only makes sense to enforce it if it encourages productivity. Want to fix some policy that is imperfect? Make a thread dedicated to that problem specifically, and get ready to dig into the problem for as long as needed, as deep as needed. Stating that things just don't work anymore is not just unhelpful, it's disrespectful to all the people that are still inspired themselves to handle all the jobs, and happen to inspire others that contribute their works. If you're getting old, it's fine. If you're being counter-productive, it's a problem. Because it resolves nothing and makes nobody happier.
This quote describes how we deal with things that can not be enforced objectively. We rely on how much the users have been entertained. I listed a bunch of other criteria earlier in this thread, but they were ignored due to selective reading.
Regarding RTA people. Speedruns.com is a site dedicated to record keeping. They do not care how many absurd and ridiculous categories people happen to speedrun. Because they do not have to handle them the way we do. TASVideos has always been about publishing the best pieces of tool-assisted work. It will stick to this principle. It will keep its standards.
Think of how much effort is required to manage a community that allows you to verify and publish your own run, simply by adding a record entry (and optionally a video). Compare it to all the job we do for every submission, in order to only publish the best ones.
Of course it doesn't mean that we artificially raise the barrier to only cherry pick the best of the best. For record keeping we have Vault, it stores all the any% and 100% runs whose goal can be clearly defined and that have speedrun value even to minorities. For old-stile runs that aim for speed or entertainment, but nonetheless look impressive and superb, we have Moons. Moons is very close to old TASVideos, where boring speed records were rejected (because only the best examples were appreciated). But when tiers were introduced, we expanded this in order to publish more branches that are just as impressive. Old TASVideos required to keep branches to minimum. We allowed for more branches, but we test them quite a bit before accepting, to make sure the standard doesn't downgrade.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
p4wn3r wrote:
it's just that you occasionally make some bad taste jokes (like stating in your location that you torture TASers and forumers)
What makes you think this is a joke? I've joined the dark side and I like cookies.
If you don't appreciate my brand of humor, it's your loss.
p4wn3r wrote:
That looks like it was taken straight out of the soviet Pravda.
Funny you should bring that up, I was reading some of that over the weekend looking for pointers.
p4wn3r wrote:
Could you elaborate on what's morally wrong about suggesting that, maybe it's a better idea to avoid bowing to newcomer tastes in order to avoid institutional chaos? It seemed to me we were having a nice discussion here, and while people were not agreeing, we were making progress towards some understanding.
I don't think the entire site should only cater to newcomers. You won't find me defending that.
p4wn3r wrote:
Also, where does your self-appointed zealotry as defender of the faith come from? Do you have a PhD on entertainment business or you just happened to be around when Bisqwit was not having so much time to manage the site anymore?
I've been around since the site launched, Bisqwit handed it off to me, and I told him I won't fail him.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
You wrote it as a passive-aggressive mockery against me.
I didn't intend it that way.
You could have stated your point of view without making it about "Warp does this, Warp does that". That sounds like, and pretty much effectively is, a level of mockery at me, no matter what your true intentions were.
Anyway, it appears to me that we are talking about two different things. I am talking about what the acronym "TAS" meant originally. I was there when it was suggested. In fact, and while I can't be 100% sure, but I'm like 95% sure, I was the person, or one of the people, who suggested it, or at the very least, promoted it. As said, it has been so long that I can't remember exact details with absolute certainty, but I do vividly remember that the suggestion was precisely originally "tool-assisted speedrun" (because that was what it meant in the Doom speedrunning community).
Anyway, you seem to be taking that as some kind of statement about what the goal and purpose of the site should be. My recollection of the events surrounding the adoption of the acronym "TAS" has absolutely nothing to do with what the site should be about, only what those letters stood for originally. It irks me when people keep repeating that "TAS has always stood for tool-assisted superplay, not for speedrun", almost dogmatically, when I vividly remember otherwise. The "superplay" backronym was suggested later.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
You could have stated your point of view without making it about "Warp does this, Warp does that". That sounds like, and pretty much effectively is, a level of mockery at me, no matter what your true intentions were.
You could have stated your point of view without claiming no one is allowed to disagree with you.
To me it sounds like I'm saying where you fit into this since this has happened a few times.
Warp wrote:
In fact, and while I can't be 100% sure, but I'm like 95% sure, I was the person, or one of the people, who suggested it, or at the very least, promoted it.
According to change logs on important early pages, you introduced it on a few of them alongside other preexisting terminology. So please, be 100% sure.
Warp wrote:
As said, it has been so long that I can't remember exact details with absolute certainty, but I do vividly remember that the suggestion was precisely originally "tool-assisted speedrun" (because that was what it meant in the Doom speedrunning community).
Yes that was originally suggested, and as I've often stated, we don't care what is done elsewhere, and it's not what was adopted for the site's name.
Warp wrote:
Anyway, you seem to be taking that as some kind of statement about what the goal and purpose of the site should be. My recollection of the events surrounding the adoption of the acronym "TAS" has absolutely nothing to do with what the site should be about, only what those letters stood for originally.
Then why are you trying to "correct" people who are stating what the site is and should be about?
Patashu wrote: "The name TASVideos doesn't stand for Tool-Assisted Speedrun Videos, it stands for Tool-Assisted Superplay Videos, and it always has (AFAIK). Therefore non-speedrun content (like playarounds, score attacks and ACE demonstrations) are permitted on the site."
Patashu was talking about the name of the site and the site's goals. You tried to "correct" him.
Anyone who tries to alter the core purpose of our site, diminish it, and pass that off as reality deserves to be mocked incessantly. Not that I'm trying to mock you at all. But if someone did, in this case it's well deserved. In general though, ideas should be attacked, not people.
Warp wrote:
It irks me when people keep repeating that "TAS has always stood for tool-assisted superplay, not for speedrun", almost dogmatically, when I vividly remember otherwise. The "superplay" backronym was suggested later.
And Patashu clearly stated, that the TAS of TASVideos stands for "superplay", he didn't say the original meaning of "TAS" outside of the name "TASVideos" which can be found some place online stood for "Superplay". The meaning of "TAS" in "TASVideos" wasn't "later", that was on day one of the site changing it's name to TASVideos. You were the one who jumped in and decided to "correct" Patashu on what the site was originally supposed to be about (and remember we accepted River City Ransom "playaround" as one of the earliest runs to be published).
For the future, when someone is talking about what "TASVideos" stands for, or the goals of the site as being superplays, don't try to "correct" them. You can talk about how the Doom community which predates TASVideos used the term TAS. You can talk about how before officially adopting TASVideos as the site's name you and a few others here used the term TAS as the Doom community did. But please do not write anything which claims that TASVideos from it's early days was not about superplays, which includes speedruns or otherwise, and please stop trying to insinuate that the meaning of the site was ever anything other than what you see in the logo on the upper left of the forum.
If you don't attempt to change the meaning of the site, and anything else you say regarding the history of terms is properly quantified without diminishing the site or its aims, we won't have a problem.
Edit:
Also to address something you wrote earlier, "You don't need to like me; I don't mind that.", I actually do like you, very much so. I appreciate your point of view, especially when it's in a workbench thread for a submission I'm judging. I appreciate many of the articles you wrote here and on your own website and blog. Your critique of Java is even something I use when I teach Computer Science. Your "everything is a pointer" remark is one of the most insightful I've seen on the subject.
What I don't like is constant squabbles over the soul of our site, but hey no one is perfect.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
You could have stated your point of view without claiming no one is allowed to disagree with you.
To me it sounds like I'm saying where you fit into this since this has happened a few times.
It doesn't matter what I say. I could go on a huge tirade full of insults, swearwords and the most heinous things worthy of a lifetime ban, yet personal attacks and mockery would still not be the appropriate response from site staff. Don't try to excuse your mockery towards me by alluding to how you perceived my messages. If you want to refute my claims, do it neutrally and professionally.
Then why are you trying to "correct" people who are stating what the site is and should be about?
Patashu wrote: "The name TASVideos doesn't stand for Tool-Assisted Speedrun Videos, it stands for Tool-Assisted Superplay Videos, and it always has (AFAIK). Therefore non-speedrun content (like playarounds, score attacks and ACE demonstrations) are permitted on the site."
Patashu was talking about the name of the site and the site's goals. You tried to "correct" him.
Correct him on the origin of the name.
Anyone who tries to alter the core purpose of our site, diminish it, and pass that off as reality deserves to be mocked incessantly. Not that I'm trying to mock you at all. But if someone did, in this case it's well deserved.
My respect for you as the highest member of the site staff is diminishing by the message. Learn some professionalism, will you?
I have been mocked and attacked by other members of the site staff plenty enough in the past, and frankly, I'm absolutely sick of it. I don't need it from you.
What I don't like is constant squabbles over the soul of our site, but hey no one is perfect.
Then feel free to refute and critique my claims in a civilized manner, without resorting to personal attacks.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
It doesn't matter what I say. I could go on a huge tirade full of insults, swearwords and the most heinous things worthy of a lifetime ban, yet personal attacks and mockery would still not be the appropriate response from site staff. Don't try to excuse your mockery towards me by alluding to how you perceived my messages. If you want to refute my claims, do it neutrally and professionally.
You're asking that I divine exactly what each thing I say may connotate to you, in the hopes that I don't inadvertently hurt your feelings. I have no intention to hurt your feelings. Putting that aside, I don't believe in political correctness, much less that I should become a mind reader to try to phrase things in a way to ensure that I don't somehow unintentionally hurt your feelings.
Warp wrote:
Correct him on the origin of the name.
The origin of the name of TASVideos is Tool-assisted superplay movies, this is not up for debate or negotiation.
Warp wrote:
Anyone who tries to alter the core purpose of our site, diminish it, and pass that off as reality deserves to be mocked incessantly. Not that I'm trying to mock you at all. But if someone did, in this case it's well deserved.
My respect for you as the highest member of the site staff is diminishing by the message. Learn some professionalism, will you?
You forgot to quote part of the message: "In general though, ideas should be attacked, not people."
You'll have to define professionalism here for me. What do you think is the correct professional way to deal with someone who appears to be trying to diminish your site and promoting having it reject its core tenets?
Warp wrote:
I have been mocked and attacked by other members of the site staff plenty enough in the past, and frankly, I'm absolutely sick of it. I don't need it from you.
I don't think you should be personally attacked by members of the site staff.
Warp wrote:
What I don't like is constant squabbles over the soul of our site, but hey no one is perfect.
Then feel free to refute and critique my claims in a civilized manner, without resorting to personal attacks.
I felt what I did was a civilized manner.
I did not use any profanity, I did not mention any violence towards you, I did not call you names, I did not describe you in a derogatory manner.
The only thing I did was mention that we've had this argument before, what your position is, and that now you're claiming anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. As far as I can perceive, this is an accurate depection of what you're doing, and you dislike that I'm calling you out on it. Instead you're turning this around into I'm somehow personally attacking you, and it's not fair because you have a right to "huge tirade full of insults, swearwords and the most heinous things worthy of a lifetime ban", and I'm not allowed to contest it when you claim that this is a personal attack. I'm sorry, but you don't have a right to attempt to diminish our site and then try to deflect a civilized refutation by claiming it hurt your feelings.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
The origin of the name of TASVideos is Tool-assisted superplay movies, this is not up for debate or negotiation.
I was there when "TAS" was first suggested. The acronym was not original, and had been used before by another speedrunning community. It meant originally "tools-assisted speedrun". When I was suggesting/promoting that acronym, it was always "speedrun".
The "S" meaning "superplay" is a backronym. The acronym was taken from the Doom speedrunning community, and later the S retrofitted to mean "superplay". It was not like somebody suggested "tool-assisted superplay, or TAS for short". It was more like "speedrun doesn't cover every single run, so let's change the S to mean something more fitting".
I remember this vividly. Are you calling me a liar?
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
You're repeating the same thing again, which is not what TASVideos' name means. When TAS was accepted as the name for the site, it was accepted being based on "tool-assisted superplay".
I already laid out the time line for TASVideos' name here, which agrees with what you're saying but still disproves your premise.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I really can't understand why you are so obsessed in maintaining that the meaning of the "S" is that particular word, and has always been, as if it literally were a matter of honor. As if it meaning "speedrun" was somehow shameful and dishonorable, and any such claim an insult, as if it were some kind of degrading derogatory term used to denigrate the site.
And the funny thing is that the vast majority of people out there know it as "tool-assisted speedrun". It's only a portion of people in this forum who are adamant in that it must mean "superplay" (some of them quite fanatically at that). Reminds me how a few people went to absolutely ridiculous extents to maintain that these were "timeattacks", not "speedruns". They lost that battle. But it seems that the "it means superplay I can't hear you lalalala" crowd is still strong to this day. As if it were a matter of extreme importance.
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First, I should provide my own background - I submitted my first TAS here in 2008 but prior to that I was enamored with what Morimoto had made when I encountered a file named "mariox.wmv" circa 2004. I spent many hours watching random content on NESVideos as a viewer rather than a participant in the early days. As the saying has been thrown around, "I was there too".
It's clear to me that there are two discussions running in parallel, one about the nature of what the S in TASVideos meant then and means now against the backdrop of a separate discussion about personal beliefs about the intent of others. I'm going to focus on the latter part only briefly: Nach, you can be direct and your words can hurt whether you intend them to or not. Warp, you can be direct and your words can hurt whether you intend them to or not. Yes, I typed that twice. Nach, when Warp says he's feeling hurt, he's probably telling the truth and continuing to throw repeated evidence at him probably isn't helping. Warp, we know Nach can sometimes take things too far but I believe he's sincere when he says he respects you. Let's set aside the personal relationship conversation and focus on the intent of the discussion instead; I trust the two of you are mature enough to hash out your relationship in a less public forum.
For me, when I look back on the early years I see a lot more emphasis on the "Tool-Assisted" part and a whole lot less concern about whatever the S stood (or stands) for. Was what is represented on the site as [668] NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "warps" by Morimoto in 11:03.95 the absolute pinnacle of speed? Clearly not, given how many times it has been obsoleted. To me, that run was a wonderful fusion - the outcome of a human, assisted by tools, creating art. One direction I saw the site take in the years shortly before I finally joined was an obsession with perfection. This was only natural; we gave humans tools and those tools allowed for inhuman perfection which was appealing. Unfortunately, the natural consequence was the S came to mean Speed for more people and the fact that it could imply more of an organic fusion of tools assisting humans for goals other than speed was somewhat lost.
Why do I care about this topic? Because the GDQ content we've been creating is often *not* focused on pure speed. It's much more often art that cannot be created or expressed without the assistance of tools. My hope is that the legacy of this site is not forgotten and that at some point in the future it will be possible to represent some of the content we've created on the site in at least some meaningful way that isn't a toss-away and easily lost wiki page. I look forward to the day where I can submit a run, check a box to say it isn't about speed, and allow people to debate its merits as a work of art rather than as something that must meet objective criteria such as completing a game in a specific way. We lock ourselves into a narrow definition in a niche within a niche when we make the site only about speed.
What we call the S in TASVideos is far less important to me than remembering the legacy of the site and the art that has come before. I look forward to seeing how the site matures as we approach the heat death of the planet and every game for every TAS'able platform has been completed to its maximum speed and all that is left to be done is, well, the art that can be made by those unafraid to try something more risky than just speed.
Speedruns? Superplays? You choose what it means for you. If there's still Tool-Assisted content here I'll be well content.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
I really can't understand why you are so obsessed in maintaining that the meaning of the "S" is that particular word, and has always been, as if it literally were a matter of honor.
You're asking this of me, yet to try to correct someone nearly every time they say it means Superplay? Why are you doing this again and again? I'm not the one who started derailing the CT thread with this side argument.
Warp wrote:
As if it meaning "speedrun" was somehow shameful and dishonorable, and any such claim an insult, as if it were some kind of degrading derogatory term used to denigrate the site.
Because it kind of is. As Bisqwit wrote, speed is just a mechanism for conveying entertainment, speed is not the goal. If all we cared about was speed, we can post the record, ensure someone verified it, and be done with it. Why even watch the movie?
When speed is elevated to a matter of importance, it also becomes exclusionary towards playarounds and time for entertainment tradeoffs. That's not what the site is about, despite what you and others may want it to be about.
Warp wrote:
And the funny thing is that the vast majority of people out there know it as "tool-assisted speedrun". It's only a portion of people in this forum who are adamant in that it must mean "superplay" (some of them quite fanatically at that).
The forum itself is adamant about it, which you can see in the upper left logo.
Warp wrote:
But it seems that the "it means superplay I can't hear you lalalala" crowd is still strong to this day. As if it were a matter of extreme importance.
What the site is about is extremely important for the site. If TASVideos meant Tool-Assisted Spaghetti Videos, then we'd be publishing cooking movies, perhaps being made by all kinds of crazy gadgets. Or perhaps tying people up with Spaghetti.
As is our mission statement is regarding Superplays, not speed runs, even though speed largely contributes in most cases. It's always been like that, and when the name was officially decided to be TASVideos, it was selected based on it meaning Tool-Assisted Superplay Videos. You can "lalalala I cannot hear you all day long", it doesn't change what the site has been about nor what acronym the site was ultimately been renamed to.
dwangoAC wrote:
It's clear to me that there are two discussions running in parallel, one about the nature of what the S in TASVideos meant then and means now
What it meant then and now inside the name "TASVideos" has always been the same.
Warp's contention as far as I can tell is that "TAS" existed outside of the name "TASVideos" prior to it with a different meaning, and we took advantage of that for marketing purposes, which I 100% accept.
My problem here is that I don't understand why Warp is not grasping the distinction regarding "TAS" in isolation from the name "TASVideos". If you can explain it somehow better than me, I'd appreciate it.
dwangoAC wrote:
Nach, you can be direct and your words can hurt whether you intend them to or not.
I know, this is a fact of life.
dwangoAC wrote:
Nach, when Warp says he's feeling hurt, he's probably telling the truth and continuing to throw repeated evidence at him probably isn't helping.
I believe that Warp is telling the truth, and not just trying to manipulate me and others. I never even doubted it.
I am trying to zealously defend our site and ensure it remains committed to Superplays as it always has been. I don't know how to do that without the repeated evidence. If you can assist in explaining this better than I can, I would appreciate it.
The key point in why this is important: Speedruns are a subset of Superplays, and we want to keep publishing the entire superset.
(Edit: grammar fixes)
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
