Topic by jimsfriend

Posted: 7/21/2010 12:02 PM

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jimsfriend

Former player

Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign

Status effects affect the whole group, yeah. Gaze will kill all the paladins, hyper will kill everything that's not immune to it, whirl kills them all (iirc), blind blinds them all, etc. No, I'm telling you I don't know what I'm talking about. Sure, if you want to spend time going through nasty dungeon or final dungeon those things can be gotten. Or you can get nymph as your monster and use whirl which immediately kills all nonimmune enemies rather than pick up hyper. On the page it says Damage=Mana*8; All enemies, but I seem to remember it being a death-or-no-death skill. Maybe it's just been to long since I played through the game. Either way, gaze can kill a pack of paladins.

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Posted: 7/25/2010 2:02 AM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1172)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

I made a small attempt at running the game. Not much to show, really, but it's given me an idea on who we'll encounter. A little bit of memory hacking, and I made it much simpler to have Teleport handy for the Dragon Race, so that I have a way to experiment with stuff. With that in mind, here's the complete list of compulsory battles: 1) BabyWyrm 2) Rhino 3) Ashura 4) Phagocyt 5) Dunatis 6) Arsenal A Medusa is indeed a good idea to have. In my test, I got meat from the Rhino then got an Eagle Meat to top it off. Bam, Medusa. Manipulating Teleport from Dunatis appears to be a difficult task -- There's only 8 numbers out of 256 that will allow it. And that's assuming the game even selects an ability to reward you with. Address 0xC0A5 must roll to one of these numbers: 0x25, 0x46, 0x49, 0x52, 0x5B, 0x88, 0x9F, or 0xB4. It is used for other things, which I haven't checked, but I know address 0xC0A5 does determine what ability you get. Lots of stuff opens up once Dunatis becomes a fine piece of art. For one thing, you have 29 MAGI. Use Trash Can 4 times on anyone. Now you have 255. Go straight to Dragon Race. Teleport out of Dragon Race. Now you can go anywhere. I managed to go straight to Arsenal. Alas, I haven't made preparations... The fastest dragon takes 2 frames to travel one step, as opposed to our normal 16 frames per step. Throw in walk-through-walls for good measure. Getting to places should happen real fast. I was hoping the act of traveling over otherwise impassable terrain wouldn't increment the step counter for encounters, but I saw it go up just the same. Darn. One thing I want to try out: Can we win using a ridiculous-Strength Robot wielding a ChainSaw? In fact, let's not wonder about it, let's do it! I hacked in a set of Sun Swords and a ChainSaw for my Robot. Too hard to cut with ChainSaw... Okay, out with that idea. As for buffing the Robot's agility using Karate, I went ahead and hacked in the Karate item just to be sure. Sure enough, equipping and removing the Karate doesn't reduce its uses. So the "hands-free" agility boost for a Robot is highly cumbersome at best, since we need to use every one of its 40 uses the hard way. Now comes the question of what do we use to beat the final boss? Our party is best described as "pathetic" when coming out of the Dragon Race. It's absolutely certain we'll have a monster and a Mutant in our party by this point. What items do we pick up? If we attempt to use a strength weapon for our Robot, the need for agility will get in the way of high-damage attacks. An agility weapon like CatClaw, perhaps, but where do we get the best agility items? And how much can we boost agility? If we want humans and/or mutants to deal damage, the only logical choice is to pick up a Hyper Cannon, aim it at a group containing Paladins, and steal their Ninja Glove to glitch our MAGI counter. Then use infinite stat-boost items for all the strength and agility we could want. Maybe HP and Mana, too. Who knows... But glitching the MAGI counter requires 16 items in our inventory. Although we're picking up valuables along the way, I'm thinking we might need a little junk, too. Anyway, those are my thoughts. So much of the game skipped thanks to two relatively major glitches...

Posted: 7/26/2010 1:10 AM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1172)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

I've created a movie, from start to glitching the Dragon Race, that should greatly assist in testing various item-gathering strategies we keep theorizing about. I guess the final run length will be less than 40 minutes. I hope that the process of destroying the final boss doesn't eat up 10 minutes in both preparation and the battle itself. Not much to say, other than I produced a movie file that goes through the whole glitching process "legitimately," so you can start testing any theories you want with much of the hassle gone.

Posted: 7/27/2010 2:38 AM

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jimsfriend

Former player

Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign

I doodled around for a bit, but didn't find anything interesting yet. I couldn't find a way to get Isis, which would have been really useful for killing tianlung/fenrir (whichever is at the bottom of the elevator). Two well chosen top tier monsters should be able to kill security system without much trouble, one well chosen top tier monster might be able to. If we could get dad from final world (I don't even remember how to do that >_>) and equip him with a Book Flare or 7-sword or similar super powered weapon, he might be able to take out tianlung/fenrir for meat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoEyTdmduwQ this would allow us to do it twice so we could have two top tier monsters without having to run all the way up the elevator. Titania has Flare and Thunder, and also Cure so she can cure herself; and she has 99 mana. I seem to recall thunder dealing about 7XX damage to arsenal from her. Mazin has high defense and his tornado does something like 66X-68X damage to security system iirc, but I don't think defense has any effect on the amount of damage dealt by the smasher, so Titania with cure is probably a better choice. Worth thinking about, anyway. Now I sleep.

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Posted: 7/28/2010 4:51 AM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1172)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

In case you're curious, I've put some of my notes here. I may want to eventually point out some useful RNG values to try out. Such as the fact Haniwa only shows its face at address C0AA == 0x26, 0x68, 0x72, 0xA9, 0xC5, 0xD4, 0xFB, or 0xFF. If we're grabbing the Seven Sword, then we're diving into Nasty Dungeon and grabbing the Hyper Cannon, as I don't believe there's any reasonable alternative to destroying Haniwa. I have checked literally every single RNG value for StonGaze versus Paladin. It is impossible for a Medusa to petrify the Paladin group. All 256 values are failures. Glitching the MAGI counter using their Ninja glove will require the Hyper Cannon or a really potent character from somewhere. No random encounters lua script (keeps the RNG at a no encounters state):

while true do
    memory.writebyte(0xC0A9,0x02)
    emu.frameadvance()
end

I don't have a clue on how to get any of the late fifth characters, simply because I haven't even completed half the game normally. I really should get around to beating it normally to get better ideas... I may have hacked the RNG, but it looks quite possible to mess around with all the stat boost potions we could want. It takes some time to set up, especially the fact I had to gather a pile of items including Hyper Cannon before this state, but this is one way to prepare for the final boss. But your monsters idea might be handy. I have no idea what sort of time this would take, or even where to begin fighting Fenrir (I already made it obvious that this isn't a game I halfway completed), but I know monsters are highly independent of items. A mutant and three monsters might be a possibility, assuming Fenrir can die quickly enough a few times, letting us skip the bulk of item gathering, but Fenrir doesn't look all that easy to fight.

Posted: 7/31/2010 6:01 PM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1172)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

jimsfriend and I discussed stuff on IRC. Effectively, our route looks something like this: * Begin with Mutant (M or F), Baby-D, Baby-D, Baby-D - Avoid practically every random encounter through run away or resets * Slay the BabyWyrm * Slay the Rhino, get meat * Pick a fight with a random encounter for Eagle meat * Slay Ashura powered by a Medusa StonGaze, get Explode on Mutant * Slay Phagocyt with Medusa StonGaze * Get an Elixier in the Mountain Cave * Slay Dunatis with Medua StonGaze, get Teleport on Mutant, try for an item drop * Glitch the MAGI count by trashcan bug * Glitch the Dragon Race by Teleporting to Venus Town * Sell the item drop from Dunatis and buy an Elixier * Enter Venus Sewers the "wrong way" and grab yet another Elixier * Go straight to Fenrir, do not pass GO, do not collect 200G - Drop the glitch-dragon outside the room. Step south when entering Fenrir's hall * Explode Fenrir dead. Let a Baby-D eat it * Use Elixier for another Explode, and destroy another Fenrir. Let other Baby-D eat it. * Fight Great-D for their meats (Explode) and turn our former Baby-Ds into Titianas * Fight Arsenal If all goes well, then we can win in just a few minutes right after we glitch the Dragon Race. Naturally, I'm going to check a bunch of things before I commit myself to a full run. I'm posting this partly so I have an online copy of the route, in case I forget. May as well show it to everyone. EDIT: Here's how some of these things work. Manipulating what ability I get is easy enough. By starting a round, I advance the RNG that tells me what ability I get, when the game decides turn order. Each time a damage number is needed, this RNG advances again. I can waste a few actions in battle to get this RNG where I need it, and even reset out of the battle if I find a need. This will be how I pick up Explode and Teleport. Manipulating that I get an ability is a little more troublesome, but still quite doable, and can be done without affecting the what. The act of entering a battle and attempting to run away advances the RNG. Skipping the battle by reset prevents the RNG from incrementing. So I can probably manipulate that I get an ability. The earliest I can glitch the MAGI counter is upon defeat of Dunatis. Perfect timing, I get Teleport then, too. Use the trashcan and the MAGI counter is used as the item ID, a Cure potion, and four uses gets rid of my Power MAGI and the game writes 0xFF to indicate an empty slot. With 255 MAGI, we glitch our way through all MAGI doors! Then the Dragon Race. Simple enough, walk in, get the fastest dragon, then Teleport out with dragon in tow. We now have a glitch-dragon with walk-through-walls to wander the worlds with. The Elixiers are needed so that I can restore my Mutant's Explode. Only one shot of Explode will not cut it for two Fenrir battles and two random battles that include Great-D. A box in the Mountain Cave takes 36 steps there and back, an item drop from Dunatis would get us enough money to buy one Elixier, then there's another box of Elixier sitting in the sewer not far off. Explode is like a Hyper Cannon: It instantly eradicates a random encounter. Fenrir, in spite of being a tough battle triggered by an object you walk up to and hit A, can be insta-killed by an Explode. Fenrir meat turns a Medusa into DarkRose (useless) and turns a Baby-D into Anubis (... Eh). Anubis can change into Titania with some sort of dragon meat, so that's why I'm thinking about picking on a few Great-Ds. jimsfriend said that two Titanias can probably beat the stuffing out of Arsenal, having done it with a Mazin, a Titiana, and two weaker monsters that contributed practically nothing. I will try to beat Arsenal with 2 Titianas, a Medusa (useless), and a Mutant (useless), before I try the full run. Dropping the glitch-dragon outside the Fenrir hall has a mysterious effect. For one thing, the Fenrir battle never disappears. For another, I get to keep my glitch-dragon! So I drop glitch-dragon outside, fight Fenrir twice, then fight Great-D on my glitch-dragon and then finally rush to Arsenal. So it looks pretty solid, right now. All that needs to be worked out is a few tests on the route as a whole and the RNG, and I do feel pretty optimistic I'll find some way to make it work there. EDIT2: Just testing to see if the final boss is possible with two Titiana. It certainly is. Now to make attempts at crunching through the random numbers to try and make it work smoothly.

Posted: 8/6/2010 4:27 AM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1172)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

Approximately 560 frames faster at getting a Medusa than my previous run. First, it appears I've messed up a little around the Rhino; I couldn't summon a Rhino meat by Flaming him with the Mutant, costing two actions compared to the test run. Second, I had to change formations so I could affect the RNG how I like prior to the random encounter in Ashura World. I spot a few things I can do differently. One is I start with the Mutant F in the second slot to begin with, but this would only be helpful in this specific case. Another is I pick Dissolve instead of Fire at the BabyWyrm battle, but Dissolve has a longer animation and spawns an extra message, though it does increment an RNG for me. Lastly, I can run away from a battle that I chose to reset-dodge instead, which affects those RNGs differently. I had to increment the RNG at C0A6 to get the Rhino to drop meat, which is why he didn't die at the first opportunity. In this run, the value is 0x7D. Nearby values that will drop a meat in my favor are 0x7A, 0x7C, 0x7D, and 0x7E. Had I not wasted time using the Bow, the RNG would have hit 0x7B, which is not one of these magic numbers. This RNG is not incremented when I use Flame, as this is an RNG that determines chance to hit, and most magics can't miss. All the way back at BabyWyrm, I could have used Dissolve instead to increment this same RNG just once, assuming all my run aways still work, and I might be able to get a meat drop. Nothing else, except possibly my run aways, would be affected. As a quick test, I modified the memory to match the likely case prior to the battle. It failed. Apparently, whatever routine makes the enemy decide what to do is rolled a varying number of times, which ends up setting specific numbers for C0A6 anyway. Darn. So now I'm looking at the various starting RNGs I can pick for C0A6 and trying to see if I can give myself the right one, and hopefully without wasting two actions' worth of time. My test run sure did it well (it uses a weapon that can miss, thus incrementing C0A6), so now I'm looking to see if I can get away with the straight-forward Thunder+Flame strat or if I must end up wasting a bit of time without the handy Colt.

Posted: 8/8/2010 11:53 PM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1172)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

Edit: I forgot to mention, I redid the Rhino battle after adjusting the RNG beforehand. It's a bit faster now. This is reflected in this new WIP. Definitely possible to grab Explode off of Ashura, alright! Trouble is the amount of time I spent manipulating just that. I'm going to look at other battles for my manipulation needs. Besides that, I picked up Blitz from the Woodman, and that might waste a pile of frames. Finally, I had to begin an extra round after Woodman to increment C0A6 to the exact value I needed it. Woodman has a chance to resist becoming instant art. That limits some possibilities for C0A6 already. C0A6 can also trigger learning an undesired ability, which messes with C0A5 as well. So basically, I should look for a value of C0A6 with which I can enter fighting Woodman where it sets itself up against Ashura without needing any special actions between the battles, or else pick a fight after Woodman and mess with the RNG at one of those three battles instead. Maybe two or even all three of them so I can take advantage of the pre-round RNG shuffling a few times without the slow actions taking place. At least with Woodman, C0A5 is unimportant. For Ashura, I must begin the battle with C0A5 == 0x80, or I can't learn Explode. C0A5 also determines turn order, and while 0x7F would otherwise be fine with Mask's Hammer incrementing C0A5, my Medusa goes first, preventing that increment. I feel it's a bit faster to increment C0A5 just once more pre-Ashura rather than re-order my party. FFL2 is a maze with these RNGs. Many ways one can go, one merely needs to follow a path through to see if it hits a dead-end. As for me, I just need to find all the shortcuts.

Posted: 8/9/2010 12:10 AM

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DarkKobold

Skilled player (1638)

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy

Looking at the work you've done with the RNGs, I'm impressed. This looks like the least fun RNG to play with ever, since you have like 1000 of them, and they are nigh untouchable. Good luck, and it was fun to read about them.

Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.

Posted: 8/9/2010 12:24 AM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1172)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

Actually, there's like only two important RNG addresses to look at, and another 3 semi-important ones. It's not horribly complicated once you realize that the "chance to hit", "enemy thinks", and "get an ability?" are on one RNG, and the "damage dealt", "turn order", and "what ability?" are on another RNG. All other RNGs, aside from the three dedicated to encounters, are largely unimportant in this run. Once I set myself up the right RNG value for one address so I get the right ability, I only need to modify the memory for another RNG address to see which ones I should aim for. There's a bunch of possible values where my StonGaze misses against Ashura. Obviously those are bad. Then there are a bunch more where I don't get an ability. Those are bad, too. Finally, once I know the target values that can work, I then run the game normally and try to manipulate up the target values that works. It helps that I can increment one without having to mess with the other, though. Gives me a bit more freedom in that I can affect the does it happen without affecting the what.

Posted: 9/18/2010 1:09 AM

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scaryice

Joined: 7/24/2007
Posts: 74

FatRatKnight wrote:

I guess the final run length will be less than 40 minutes.

Looks like a Japanese TASer did it in just under 30: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10086

Posted: 4/1/2011 9:33 PM

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eternaljwh

Joined: 3/11/2008
Posts: 583
Location: USA

For some reason I recall reading that the RNG for this game acted differently on different GB hardwares (GBA vs GB vs GBC, which GBC palette you chose too) due to pointing at an area of memory that acted differently between them. I was going to do this because I had a save right before Dunatis, but I got a little too happy when I rolled up Teleport, so I got a dragon-raced save.

notes wrote:

GBA 3: +HP (9) 4+2=6: gain Gaze (xD0)(18) 7+4=11: gain nothing (29) 12+2=14: +hp18 (38) 39+6+4=49 +6+1=56: gain Cure(x99) 57+6+3=66: gain Teleport!

So, getting +HP after 3 attacks killing Dunatis (thus, 6 rolls for turn order = 9 since poweron), followed by a reset without walking, load, attack without walking. battle 2 having two attacks (the 4 is before I was considering the turn order, but counting the roll-for-ability as 1), gaining Gaze 3 had 4, gaining nothing 5 had 2, gaining 18hp 6 had two combat rounds, in which there were 4 and 1 rolls, after which I gained Cure (which ability's value is 0x99) And, dunatis battle seven took three attacks, after which I gained Teleport. edit: This was counting how many events should be calling C0A5 according to the Game Resources page, i.e. the turn order (6/combat round), how many damage events occured, and then adding one after each battle for the Mutant ability. (hmm, problem: Does it roll the "which ability" roll on C0A5 if it doesn't roll that an ability is gained from C0A6?) Party composition was robot-monster-monster-mutantF, if that helps. I didn't note abilities, unfortunately. (C-class monsters only, though.) Is this useful for deciphering the initial state of RNG on actual hardware? Any suggestions on how to further test it? (Saving in front of a boss battle, esp. Dunatis for being an easy B-class monster, seems like the best recipe, because it doesn't rely on random-battles, and gets the full range of results for the after-battle roll.) Clearly I should better-document it, who goes when for how much damage (or miss), what stats and slots were. And do at least two trials per system, though anecdotal evidence (normal speedruns) suggest this not to be necessary as it's static per system. even more edit: I could potentially test all of GB(two of 'em), GBpocket, GBC, GBA, GBA-SP, SGB, GBPlayer, though I'd probably want a new set of GBA values at a comparable save.

Posted: 4/2/2011 2:21 PM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1172)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

Wow, I've been away from this game for long enough that I forgot just about everything related to the RNG. It will actually take a lot of effort from me to relearn enough to properly answer your question. Sorry about that, but I really have lost most recollection of what I've done here. Eh, the (J) run sort of scared me away from trying any further. Apparently, it's possible to fight Arsenal in an abnormal spot, but whether that causes any triggers is unknown. A glitched set of early powerful monsters seem necessary.