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Movie objectives

  • Emulator used: BizHawk 2.3.1
  • Beats Tekken Force Mode
  • Uses a character available from the start
  • Manipulates Pushes Luck
  • Takes damage to save time (both from enemies and self-inflicted)
  • Avoids redauntant loops by using starting from SRAM (verification movie here)
  • Ends input early
  • "Saves" Doctor Bosckonovitch
  • Uses hardest difficulty
  • Genre: Fighting

About the run

In this movie I attempt to beat the Tekken Force Mode as fast as possible. It's a game mode that it's available from the start, which basically consists in a beat 'em up quest. The final goal of the mode is saving stabbing to death the Doctor Boskonovitch. In order to do so, you need to first beat the main quest 3 times. Right after the 4° time you clear the main quest, Doctor Boskonovitch will challenge you.

About the SRAM

Normally a game (or game mode) can't considered as properly beaten if you don't go through it all from start to finish. However, in this case I considered it worth to make an exception, in order to skip the first three iterations necessary for accessing the fight with Dr. Boskonovitch. In my opinion it improves the entertaining much, while bringing minimal technical demeterits. Here are my three reasons:
  • As far as I could tell, there are no differences between each time you face the main quest, and these would even feature the same RNG, which would end up with having the very same similar movie contents repeated four times during the same TAS. You could even reboot the console for getting the very same RNG again, despite which is the next iteration to clear. In fact, in the verification movie I provided, the first minute of gameplay features the very same inputs as in the submitted movie. The only difference I found is the RNG that decides which character is mimic'd by Mokukin.
  • A game featuring loops does usually present these during the same playthrough. Instead, here we have a mode that requires the player to start at least four separated plays, as each time you beat this mode you get brought back to the main menu.
  • After beating Dr. Boskonivitch, the game won't present his fight again, unless you erase your save file or remove the Memory Card from the console.
With that said, I wanted to point out that (in my point of view) a single iteration of this game mode can be already be considered as a full playthrough, as the fight with Dr. Boskovitch would actually appear as a bonus that goes outside of the common. After all, we already allow movies starting from SRAM if it's for the sake of starting a second quest or an unlockable game mode. I understand that this is not exactly the kind of cases we've seen until now, but that's because this game is giving an unique situation, so the final judgment will set a new borderline in any case.

About the movie

Optimizing a Tekken Force TAS is a very complex task. There are countless possible scenarios in each fight, as you often have to manipulate two foes at the same time, while at the same time advancing as much quick as possible through the level. Then, add to that that there are multiple playable characters available, whose are all very different from each other. In order to make a (supposedly) perfect TAS, there would need many years of study about every game mechanic and all its possible applications... Which in my opinion would not be worth the effort. I believe that it makes much more sense to just go with applying all the already known techs, while at the same time putting enough optimization in order to make the resulting TAS relatively hard to improve. I hope that this movie will encourage more people into trying to research and improve TASing for this game mode. If you want to know about the specific strategies I've adopted through the TAS, keep reading.

The character choice

With what I just said, of course I picked a character that I'm already familiar with. Still, I had to carefully study his complete moveset and obscure quirks, as well as figuring out which moves could be useful and in which situations. From what I've experienced while researching, it seemed to me that Yoshimitsu is a very slow fighter, except for a couple of moves (Fubuki and Side Kick). On the other hand, he features many weird moves that allow him to do fancy stuff that give him unique advantages in Tekken Force situations, mostly for killing enemies out of screen and moving quickly around with freedom, even if still having a target locked.

Foe despawning

Discovered by Spikestuff. Each foe has either a scripted spawn that triggers when you reach the end of the current screen, or a spawn point that it's triggered when you walk past a certain distance. However, in the second case, they won't spawn if the foe slots are still occupied while you reach their spawn point, thus they will never spawn. So it's possible to skip many foes by travelling through the current screen as fast as possible, before the current foes do disappear from being KO'ed. I mostly do this by defeating some foes by using moves that make Yoshimitsu travel far and fast.

RNG manipulation

The actions of the foes depends on your actions, not on your inputs. So you can only manipulate them by changing something in the moves you used and their timings. Other than that, you can open and close the pause menu, in case you're not in a good position for changing your current approach too much.

Moves used

Here is the full list of the moves I used in this TAS, grouped for the different uses I made of them. You can get more detailed informations in this page; note that the command notation is a standard for Tekken community, you can see a legend here.

Quick attacks

  • Right Punch: If you're not running, then it's the fastest way to KO enemies with the lowest amount of health.
  • Side Kick: An incredible compromise between speed and power. Also, its reach is so long that it makes it often your fastest choice for attacking while running, even though you stop running when using it.
  • Fubuki: You can either use it while running or from standing. It's a bit faster than Side Kick, but has a shorter reach, as well as a longer cooldown time. Be aware that foes can use this attack, too.

Very long reach attacks

  • Sword Impale: Extremely slow, but also extremely powerful. Allows to kill enemies off screen and deal a great initial damage to later bosses.
  • Moonsault Slayer: Very slow, but allows to hit from very far away, and it's almost impossible to dodge. I wonder how many friendships has ruined.

Double kill attacks

  • Avoiding the Puddle: Good speed, good power and great lateral range.
  • Left Kick: Very slow on both engaging and cooldown, but devastating if it connects. With RNG manipulation, it can even OHKO the most healthy foes. However it has a very short lateral range, so prepare yourself for a lot of trial and error.
  • Flying Cross Chop: That's that diving attack from running, the one that almost all characters can use. The great thing is that it allows to travel some extra space through the level before the foes have disappeared, which can sometimes be enough for despawning enemies .

Chained kills attacks

  • Zig Zag: When you just can't do a double OHKO, use this combo. It's extremely powerful and Yoshimitsu will automatically lock on the following target just a moment before delivering the second hit.

Multi-purpose uber combo

  • Shark Attack: Starts from far, travels quickly and delivers a lot of damage. It can also hit crouched enemies, so it's especially useful for attacking a boss right after using Sword Impale.
  • Dive Bomb: Can be used only after Shark Attack. It travels very far in an extremely short timespan, thus saving a lot of time, from both having to walk and efficiently despawning enemies. Also, if we exclude the sword attacks, this is the most powerful of Yoshimitsu's moves.
  • Kangaroo Kick: Can be chained after Dive Bomb or being used indipendently. Extremely slow and very short reach, gets almost always blocked or dodged. If connecting, it sends the foe up into the sky, allowing to start a juggle... except that juggles are unnecessary in a Tekken Force TAS. Instead, I'm using this mostly as a finisher hit after Dive Bomb: this makes it handy despite being a slow move.

Movement trickeries

  • Evasive Side Spin: Allows to move laterally very fast, at the price of sacrificing your own health. Useful for adjusting your position while advancing through the level despite having a target locked to the left of the screen.
  • Meditation: I used this when I wanted to turn sides before the current foe disappeared from being KO'ed. In order to do so, it's necessary to press the back direction with frame precision. I learned about this thanks to this video.

Stage-by-stage comments

It seems that people like detailed explainations and stuff, so why not?

Stage 1: Backstreets

Screen 1

Here we are, where everything starts. We run towards the edge of the screen, where the very first foe will spawn, a Crow, asking to be beaten up as fast as possible. Right after using a Side Kick, we adjust our position with a Left Side Step.

Screen 2

After the screen resumes moving, we begin a Shark Attack combo. The first attack will destroy the first foe, while the subsequent Dive Bomb will be performed just for travelling past some foe spawn points. Right after getting up, we turn towards the other foe and we deliver a Right Punch, as in the meantime he approaches just for saving us the trouble of having to walk to him.
The next foe will be from a scripted spawn, placed on the bottom right, and in order to get there in time we'll need to use a Evasive Side Spin, which will place us right where we need to be. The foe will attack us right after spawning, and we will confront him with a Left Punch from behind, which will result in both parts getting hit, which will conveniently allow us to turn back again sooner, in order to go get the next foe, spawning on the left, and give him a Side Kick.
We turn towards the right again, as we need to go greet our first Falcon foe with a running Fubuki. And since we have some free time before the next foe spawns, we use Yoshimitsu's signature Left Kick for treating him, because in this case turned out faster than other any other idea.

Screen 3

We again start a new screen with a Shark Attack combo, except that this time we hit our next foe with the Dive Bomb part. Then use attack the other Crow with a reverse slap, which is a relatively long-ranged attack to use from behind. That's because this last foe is too much busy hitting the air with his knee, so we had to do the courtesy of getting him ourselves.
While we're still staring at the agonizing Crow, we begin stepping backwards, in order to get closer to where the next Falcon will spawn. Too bad he's a little shy, as opposite of the subsequent Crow, which will instead come right away for meeting our Side Kick. Then the Falcon decides to try it out too.
We then start step backwards again, and right after the first Crow spawns on the left side, we turn to the left while doing a jump. This is not the quickest way to reach the edge of the screen, but for some reason it much less scares away the Crows, which will be happily meet a Side Kick and a Right Punch, respectively.

Screen 4

Without time to waste, we run to the right and surprise a distracted Crow by placing a Side Kick on his back, then we gift a Right Punch to the other one that was standing there.
At this point we perform a Left Side Step and an Evasive Side Spin, as we have little time for avoiding more foes to spawn.

Boss: Yoshimitsu

We beat Yoshimitsu by using Yoshimitsu, with an attack that damages at same time both Yoshimitsu and Yoshimitsu. I had to carefully adjust the position of Yoshimitsu in order to manipulate the position of Yoshimitsu. I did also open the pause menu for a moment, because of Yoshimitsu.

Stage 2: Badlands

Screen 1

Time time we'll have to run a bit before meeting our first guests. However the approach I've chosen ended very traditional: Side Kick each.
We then wait standing still, just in order to not scare away the next Crows. And just as planned, the moment they spawn, they get right away into a Side Kick and a Fubuki.
We then turn and go get a new Crow on the left with a Side Kick, and then get back on the right for another Crow with another Side Kick. We go to the left one last time, in order to meet our first Hawk foe. Since we were able to get there without having to turn towards the new foe, we'll be able to deal with him by using a basic kick from backwards, which is a very fast and powerful attack.

Screen 2

After that we've placed our foot on our last foe, we start running right away to the right. We stop running and turn left as we've just reached the new scripted spawn zone. This time the foes will begin spawning from the left side. One of them is a Hawk with a surprising big health, despite being just at the beginning of the second stage. And since the following foe doesn't show up soon enough, we opt for a Zig Zag combo.

Screen 3

We're already at the third scripted spawn zone of the stage. We have two Hawks to deal with, but since they refuse to get hit with a single attack, we deal with them separately. However, this time we can use something a bit faster than the Zig Zag combo: we use a jumping kick and a Fubuki.

Screen 4

Before the camera resumese moving, we adjust our position with a Back Step and Left Side Step, as we're soon going to be doing a surgical operation. There will be a lot of space to travel before reaching the end of the next screen, and we need to skip a LOT of spawn points. So, what do we do?
We run towards the right, until we get to present our Shoulder Attack to a clueless Crow. While our target is still locked on the corpose of the innocent Crow, we do a full Shark Attack combo towards it. Not only we'll get insanely far quick, but the ending attack of the combo, that is the infamously unreliable Kangaroo Kick, will conveniently meet the armpit of the only foe that our short race against time wasn't unable to prevent to spawn. We'll then cover the remaining of our trip by an Evasive Side Spin.
We'll now quickly deal with the stray Crow by using a Fubuki, and then get to the right for the scripted spawns. Two Hawks will present at the same time, and this time we'll be able to hit both of them at the same time with a Left Kick. We start stepping all the way backwards like a crayfish, just because a single Hawk is going to spawn on the bottom left, and give it a Side Kick.
At this point we use a Meditation move, and press the back direction at the right frame in order to turn backwards, despite the fact that we still have the target locked on the last foe. This allows us to prepare for our next move sooner, as we will begin attacking before that we have the next target locked, as the foe will not be yet spawned... We use a Moonsault Slayer, which will gracefully place our green sword on an unlucky Hawk that has just spawned offscreen.
We then adjust our position and get some distance from the right side of the screen, then we dash again while the new Hawk offscreen mistakenly thinks to be out of the range of our Side Kick. We then make again some distance with the right edge of the screen, just for preparing a Sword Impale that will end inside the guts of another Hawk.
We then ahead for the left side of the screen again. A couple of Hawks will spawn at the same time, and this time it will be they who have the kindness of willingly come into their demise, in the form of a Zig Zag combo, just like it happened during the screen 2. Right after that, without even having to adjust our position, we perform a Moonsault Slayer that will fall on a very healthy Hawk, right after he spawned.

Boss: Mokujin

No, it didn't imitate Yoshimitsu, sorry.

Stage 3: Darkness

Screen 1

We begin exactly like this: one step forward, then a Shark Attack combo. Well, with some minor positioning for manipulating RNG... which ended having the upper Falcon behaving in the most convenient way possible: an evasive backflip. This way, not only he kets rekt by our Dive Bomb, but he also won't hinder our movement in the slightest, allowing us to get as far as possible towards the right.
There will be spawn points ahead that we can't skip, so we'll work out an ad-hoc strategy. We turn towards the left, as we have our target automatically locked on the other Falcon that spawned at the beginning of the stage, and we'll carefully adjust out positioning by walking backwards at the right speed... right after having a new Falcon spawning, we turn towards him and then we'll go all the way with an Evasive Side Spin. Since we're touching the wall, the Evasive Side Spin will make use slide on it. That's a quirk of the walls in Tekken Force. In the meantime, the two Falcons will get close just for experiencing a Flash Attack combo exclusively for them.
We use a short Evasive Side Spin in order to grab a chicken and adjust our position at the same time, then we perform a Sword Spin that will grind two Falcons at the same time. Another Evasive Side Spin for adjusting our position again, and we go with a Moonsault Slayer that will end a huge Hawk before he even figures what's going on. The other one will meet our Left Kick.

Screen 2

Before the screen even begins moving, we start executing a Shark Attack combo, of which the Dive Bomb will hit two Falcons at the same time. We do it again and we hit another two foes again, during the Dive Bomb part. That's it.

Boss: Bryan

Right after having nuked our last two foes, we do a Kiai Tame Powerup (it's the thing when you press all buttons at the same time, you silly!) and we begin to prepare our Sword Impale... the loading of the boss section will begin when the attack is almost ready.
The fight starts, it's Bryan! True of his superhuman cyborg nature, not even getting impaled kills him! But if you add a Shark Attack to that, it's enough.
Actual explanation: the later Tekken Force stage, the more health the bosses have. Prepare for ridiculous endurances.

Stage 4: Mishima Fortress

Screen 1

These two Hawks spawn close to each other, so we get them quick with an Avoiding the Puddle. That's the name of the attack. We then adjust our position and get the two subsequent Hawks the same way.

Screen 2

We dive further in the level with a Flying Cross Chop, because it both hits both Hawks and allows us to skip all the additional spawn points.
We quickly go for the right side of the screen, and we meet the first tow Owls. As they're very eager to make acquaintance, we present a Left Kick to both of them at the same time.

Screen 3

We advance through with a Flying Cross Chop again, we hit two Hawks again, we skip all additional spawn points again.
Did you ever see any foe with that much health before? Well, that's because these are the first. And that's why we have to cast our Kiai Tame Powerup and then barely manipulate them into getting both busted at the same time with a single Left Kick. We also get hit in the process, but it's not a problem: with a Tech Roll, we can get back up before we're even down.

Screen 4

Flying Cross Chop, two Hawks, spawns skipped.
They'll spawn too fast, no time for charging. we'll just go with a Zip and a Zap. Done.

Boss: Heihachi

But for the boss, we do have enough time! We charge and we stab! Then we deliver a full Shark Attack combo, which is something that it's almost impossible to do under normal conditions. There is nothing that could do more damage than that! Well, we still need to deliver a little low kick after that, in order to finish him. And since we're there, we'll also mercilessly rage on the lifeless body of the poor grandpa, just because we can.

Stage 5: Underground

And we're finally here! Yoshimitsu finally got the chance to "save" his old friend! And what's a better way other than standing on top of him with the tip of a sword, trashing him with a full Shark Attack combo and then Impaling him? If you think that's cruel, then I'd like to note how the Doc is as sturdy as a Terminator. Makes me wonder who of the two is the cyborg.

Possible improvements

  • Having Mokujin to mimic Yoshimitsu, as it saves loading time.

Thanks

I'd like to thank all the people that inspired me into making this TAS:

feos: This is a nice little movie, but using a save anchor is problematic here, because there's nothing that fundamentally prevents us from playing the entire mode the legitimate way. The movie would be a few times longer, but due to the nature of this mode I can't say we're losing any real entertainment either way: it's just not all that impressive, no matter how long it lasts. The audience didn't particularly enjoy the movie, blaming dirty save. That might sound like a weird reason, since this doesn't affect what gameplay consists of, but for compromised legitimacy we need support from the audience towards the goals imposed in the movie, which we don't get here.
Aside from not being entertaining enough, this movie just skips ahead via in-game save system instead of having unlocked anything in the verification movie to be played through here. We don't allow skipping ahead for passwords, and saves go through even more scrutiny than passwords, so we have even less intent to allow this for dirty save. This is explained here in more details.
Rejecting and looking forward to a version with the entire "Tekken Force" mode played.
Spikestuff: If anyone wants to dump this in the future use 2.2.2 as 2.3 to 2.4 can crash when dumping.

TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #6396: ThunderAxe31's PSX Tekken 3 "Tekken Force, 1 loop" in 03:20.88
Warepire
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For me it should go through all iterations needed to unlock Dr. B, and not start with all the keys collected. Took the entertainment out of it for me. Voted no.
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I'll have to agree with Warepire on this one. Skipping loops essentially with a SRAM is questionable... and is even more questionable when this is a Fighting TAS. For me it really doesn't matter on Entertainment if the loops were done or not, my vote will be staying at Meh. I haven't properly sat down to watch this yet so I'll come back with an edit to go over it more. ThunderAxe has answered some of my questions which I'll go over with that shortfire of Q&A included in that edit. Good Job making it. It's just skipping content with a SRAM adds a bit of salt. --- Edit: Several hours later, and here's the edit. My vote is definitely a Meh. Great Job creating it but the comments I've already made looms over it. So, shortfire Q&A (or Statements & Answers) I had with ThunderAxe. S: Also the game has loops. :V T: I know, for that reason I did check if the loops where the same and surprisingly, they even have the same RNG... S: There's a difference. T: Dr. Boskonovitch fight? S: Yup T: I know that's why I started from SRAM for having three keys right away iirc Dr. Boskonovitch can fought only once S: Wait you started from SRAM. For a fighter movie? Oh that's brave. T: I know it's not 100% accepted S: Hope you have a backup. T: Well, the game turned out incredibly sync friendly I could just copy paste the loop in fact, the first minute of the verification movie has the same inputs (except menuing) S: Also Mokujin is a concern if you didn't get Yoshi. If you get Moku-Yoshi you save loading. T: I noticed that Mokujin gave a different loading depending on who was mimicking, so i did just go with some trial and error S: Did you throw an attempt with a pause buff? Or started the mode a frame late? T: Yes I started the mode 1 frame late because of a frame rule starting the mode later doesn't affect RNG *Spikestuff started watching the movie* S: So you just gave me something that I don't want to talk about, and now I'll have to. *Shows an image of the Namco Presents Screen with the word "Hard" from the lua script* S: SRAM places you on Hard, not Normal. So you don't change it in settings. T: Ok then I'll hex the movie I'm sure it will resync S: I think you'll lose desync at Mokujin. T: Why is that important to show it that I'm setting hard? Menuing is fast that you can hardly see it anyway also, difficulty setting is not a hard requirement (no pun intended) S: Indication of it. T: Whatever, tomorrow I'll see if I can resync it --- To quickly touch on Mokujin right now for those that don't know: Loading a Mokujin-Yoshimitsu saves the most TAStime than any other Mokujin character, as the character's data you're playing is present and all the game has to do is a copy+paste. For IGT time for the curious. Stage 1: 1566 Stage 2: 2479 Stage 3: 1155 Stage 4: 1457 Dr. B.: 203/283
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SNES TASer of 2021SNES TAS of 2021Exotic platforms TAS of 2021TASer of 2020SNES TASer of 2020Sega TASer of 2020TASer of 2019Sega TASer of 2019Exotic platforms TAS of 2018
More like Chikken 3.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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I'm also against the skipping loops aspect as well. It's still considered unique from each other with how the game designed them.
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Cooljay wrote:
It's still considered unique from each other with how the game designed them.
Seems that there is something that I missed, after all. Can you please list the differences that make each loop unique? Edit:
Spikestuff wrote:
T: I know, for that reason I did check if the loops where the same and surprisingly, they even have the same RNG...
Actually, I have to correct what I said. Today I did some further researches, and it seems that even though the RNG doesn't advance while on on main menu, it will be affected by previous play. So each loop will feature different RNG. Still, my point is that the gameplay is same... I'd like to have a discussion about it, hopefully not being just "because skipping is bad".
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: ThunderAxe31#1512 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
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All right, I feel that I should say what I think about this submission. While I was working on this TAS, I noticed how the movie was going to feature many different techniques and strategies, and I was intrigued to think that a fighting game could make an entertaining TAS. But on the other hand, I also noticed that each loop would include loads of repetitiveness. Thus I came to the idea of using a memory card save file for avoiding these repeating plays. So, I thought that it was a great idea, as omitting the gameplay repetitions improves the entertaining much, while having minimal technical demerits. Still, this supposed entertaining value needs to be agreed by the audience in order to be accepted. I was prepared from the start for a scenario in which this submission gets a negative feedback, however I thought it would have been because of the movie contents, not because of the technical decisions behind it. It's kind of sad, because I was all excited to discuss possible improvements and the movie diversity, yet not one ever mentioned anything from the movie... And on top of that, the only objections were against the fact itself of skipping the repeating loops, without even giving a reason of why, which I find kind of paradoxical.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: ThunderAxe31#1512 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
The only objections were against the fact itself of skipping the repeating loops, without even giving a reason of why, which I find kind of paradoxical.
Odd. I recall the very first post and the post I was referring to (before my edit) saying something around the lines as to why.
Warepire wrote:
For me it should go through all iterations needed to unlock Dr. B, and not start with all the keys collected.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
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Saying "for me it should" it's an opinion. However, he didn't explain at all why it should "go through all iterations". So yeah, I still don't see any reason given.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: ThunderAxe31#1512 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
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I mean you say you play Tekken 3 that means you know the content of Tekken 3. And of course that means you know the content of Force cause that's why we have this TAS. So I got to ask what's so questionable about what Warepire wrote? You and I both know that all iterations of Tekken Force is collecting those 3 keys to enter the cave Dr. Bosconovitch resides and defeat/free him. You're doing the full content of Tekken Force that way and which literally 3 of us have stated you skipped content of going through the pain that is Tekken Force and doing a final loop. It's estimated that in IGT the TAS would be ~27000 frames and if you can get Mokujin-Yoshimitsu on all 4 accounts that would also knock the TAStime down a notch as well. This brings in the fact you shot yourself in the foot, thanks to Mokujin's existence in Yoshimitu's route of Tekken Force. The major changing RNG of the entire game's content, can you force a same character from this Wooden Person? I'm not forgetting that fact that you didn't get the optimal Mokujin in this TAS. --- Even if Content is literally the same per round, per key it's 3 rounds and a rescue mission. The entire point of Tekken Force is to literally force your way through the same rounds of enemies and unlocking Dr. B. The time is going to be sub 10 anyways for a TAS. Do you want a suggestion for changing RNG? You're not going to like it, I certainly don't either. Mix things up, change the difficulty settings. Want another suggestion, change characters. Yes, I'm also spewing on this suggestion but regardless. Top 4 on already available: Yoshimitsu, Paul, Nina, Law. There, content. --- Lastly, this TAS doesn't only have a loop issue. It has a SRAM issue as I've alluded to with you in private (which is seen in my post). Personally I very much dislike there isn't any visual confirmation that Hard difficulty was enabled and the fact that you're using Quick Select for a character that's one position away. But this is the minor issue to the actually elephant in the room. I want to see you argue this point as it is part of the movie rules.
Movie Rules wrote:
We do not allow save-anchored movies However, there are certain games with unlockable modes, second quests, or other things of interest that can only be accessed if a save file (or an otherwise "dirty" SRAM) is present. If you really wish to submit a movie made on such a mode, you will need a verification movie made and provided alongside it. Any input file that starts from power-on (for example, a previously submitted movie for that game) and creates the exact circumstances for your submission to sync will generally do.
We can argue right here that using SRAM in Tekken Force to skip key collection does not fall under these exceptions. Tekken Force is a mode that's unlocked from the very beginning of the game, the only modes that fall under this for Tekken 3 is Tekken Ball and Theater Mode. This movie is starting at the final loop with SRAM. And the only people that have talked and voted out about it are people who actually play Tekken. There are 4 yes votes that haven't given their opinions yet... unless EZGames69's comment of "Chicken 3" is a yes vote then he does whatever.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
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EZGames69
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Spikestuff wrote:
There are 4 yes votes that haven't given their opinions yet... unless EZGames69's comment of "Chicken 3" is a yes vote then he does whatever.
I haven’t actually voted yet.
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Spikestuff wrote:
You're doing the full content of Tekken Force that way and which literally 3 of us have stated you skipped content of going through the pain that is Tekken Force and doing a final loop. It's estimated that in IGT the TAS would be ~27000 frames and if you can get Mokujin-Yoshimitsu on all 4 accounts that would also knock the TAStime down a notch as well.
Indeed, technically speaking I've not done the full content of Tekken Force. The loops are very similar, but not exactly the same, for two reasons: 1) RNG is different on each loop (unless you reboot your PSX) 2) Mokujin mimics a different character (unless you play with a chracter that doesn't have Mokugin as a boss) However, I want to point out how these differences are very light and situational. The challenge that the game gives is basically the same, same rules and same difficulty.
Spikestuff wrote:
This brings in the fact you shot yourself in the foot, thanks to Mokujin's existence in Yoshimitu's route of Tekken Force. The major changing RNG of the entire game's content, can you force a same character from this Wooden Person? I'm not forgetting that fact that you didn't get the optimal Mokujin in this TAS.
I've tried it. I managed to get Mokujin to mimic Yoshimitsu, however the rest of the movie inevitably desyncs, even if I manage to get the same RNG for the foes. It's probably because of the 2-frames rules, due to different loading time for the Mokujin boss.
Spikestuff wrote:
Even if Content is literally the same per round, per key it's 3 rounds and a rescue mission. The entire point of Tekken Force is to literally force your way through the same rounds of enemies and unlocking Dr. B.
Yes. Even if a game gives unreasonable or dumb rules, it doesn't automatically mean that we should break them. However, this game mode seems a special exception to me, as I just explained in an update of my submission text.
Spikestuff wrote:
Personally I very much dislike there isn't any visual confirmation that Hard difficulty was enabled and the fact that you're using Quick Select for a character that's one position away.
I can hex the inputs for changing the difficulty and the Quick Select settings during the submitted movie, instead of during the verification movie, if necessary. Edit: my reason is that I thought it unnecessary to include it into the final movie, as it doesn't consist in actual gameplay. Not sure if it's something really necessary, but I'm not against it either.
Spikestuff wrote:
I want to see you argue this point as it is part of the movie rules. We can argue right here that using SRAM in Tekken Force to skip key collection does not fall under these exceptions. Tekken Force is a mode that's unlocked from the very beginning of the game, the only modes that fall under this for Tekken 3 is Tekken Ball and Theater Mode.
All right, that's a very good point. Indeed, the fourth loop for Tekken Force Mode doesn't match the usual concept of second quest, however it doesn't completely stray away from it either. I just updated the submission text for explaining more clearly my three reasons why it could be considered as a legit usage of SRAM. I consider this as a pretty unique case, unless I'm missing any obvious precedent. So, regardless of the final decision, this will set a new borderline. I apologize for being one that always proposes such tricky submissions, but I think that someone had to do it.
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Having very little experience in Tekken, I watched this movie. It wasn't stunningly entertaining, and it wasn't boring. Just average movie, with the same music track, same enemies, and a tiny bit of variety in moves. It clearly didn't look like a playaround while also being as fast as possible. So I'm gonna vote Meh. It's been said that using SRAM here somehow makes the run less entertaining. I don't know. I think SRAM doesn't make it more entertaining than this mode can be anyway. It doesn't add anything that this mode lacks otherwise. It just makes it shorter, in the same vein as level passwords do. There's no difference in quality either way. Only in quantity (of loops). So I conclude that SRAM usage is a purely technical complaint, because playing the same thing 4 times isn't gonna be more entertaining than this. But overall, the question whether SRAM usage is justified here or not is still perfectly valid. The rule about passwords says
The point is to beat the full game; skipping major sections of the game with a password defeats the purpose.
and you can see that passwords are allowed even to Vault if they unlock new difficulty or level set. Note that even if SRAM unlocks something, we don't allow it for Vault at all. This means SRAM goes through much more scrutiny than even cheat codes, so it should be really worth it and justified. So the spirit of the rule here is that we disallow lesser "evil" (codes) from merely skipping ahead, therefore bigger "evil" (SRAM) we disallow from this even harder! As a result, a save-anchored movie must be really entertaining and also really solid in terms of goals. The only reason provided pro save-anchored movies in the rule text is unlockables. Of course one could unlock something and then play it in the same movie. It would arguably be less entertaining that way, but nonetheless legit. And if these playthroughs are split into different movies, we want the save-anchored movie to play through some content that the verification movie unlocks. If verification movie isn't required to unlock a mode, or a character, or a difficulty, or to be able to play the game in some unusual way, SRAM usage is not justified. Even less so if the audience doesn't enjoy the result.
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Watched it. Have to say the loops is a meh for me. I don't think that removing them particularly constitutes an advantage on the SRAM, given that you're not powering yourself up more. With the loops you're still under 10 minutes so I don't think that it's a great justification to not include the key acquisition. If it were substantially longer, then yeah, that's a different conversation, but I don't think that is the case here. The Mokujin spawn is the biggest issue I have with this movie. There is a more optimal spawn than the one available, so this movie is improvable, and relatively easily so. I don't think the optimality of this movie is sufficiently bad to warrant a no from me. So meh.
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