Topic by josh_l.

Posted: 4/29/2005 7:09 PM
(Edited: 8/19/2006 4:52 AM)

Post subject: Wario Land 3 v2

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josh_l.

Player (101)

Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 189
Location: Austin

UPDATE 8/19/06 So I'm considering finishing an actual decent run of this game sometime in the future. I don't know if anyone remembers, but I published a run that still needed a lot of work some time ago ( http://tasvideos.org/665S.html ) then eventually came to my senses and cancelled it. The Wario series doesn't seem particularly popular at TASVideos, for some reason, but going by the discussion here and the discussion for the original submission, it seems that there's just enough interest for this to maybe be worth completing. =) Don't cease to let me know if you don't agree. For a platform game, Wario Land 3 actually requires quite a bit of strategy and planning for a good TAS, but sadly, its pace is hampered by the worst unskippable transition sequences ever. That's what makes the entertainment factor of this run a bit hard to judge. Here's the first ten stages of an improved run (1000 frames faster than the original run, at this point): http://ohnolookoutitsaraygun.com/superhappy_wl3v2.zip ____________ (original first post:) In the past few days, I made a movie for WL3 which goes up to the point where a bug in the game and/or emulator prevents me from proceeding. It's actually an easy bug to get around; I just need to save and quit, then I'll be able to continue right where I left off and the glitch is gone. It wastes a few frames, but I doubt the glitch will ever be repaired since it's not a huge deal. It's a good stopping point anyway. The hardest thing about this game is ascertaining whether doing the dash will speed you up or slow you down. After several tests, I decided that for the most part, it won't do either, and it's about the same speed as walking. But due to its power to extend your jumps, it's still a little faster to dash through the game. The current video is actually my second run through most of the levels (significantly faster than my first attempt, of course), and now that I'm at a stopping point, I'm deciding whether to start again one more time and try a slightly different approach, or just finish the movie. Is anyone else trying this game? http://omake.studio-zoe.com/SuperHappy-WL3.zip (Rom used: Japan (M2) (C) (!)) - first 14 treasures. 34 remain.

http://girlyyy.com/ The El Viento TAS is the only decent thing I submitted here.

Posted: 4/29/2005 8:37 PM

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Spacecow

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Joined: 6/21/2004
Posts: 247
Location: New Hampshire

That's a strange glitch, can't say I've ever run into it while playing on a real Gameboy... but then again it's been years since I've played the game. :P I'm really glad to see someone doing this game, it and Wario Land II are probably my two most wanted run at the moment. So far the run looks pretty good, I didn't see any particular section that looked sloppy or otherwise obviously improvable... take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I think finishing the movie is a perfectly valid option at this point. :)

Posted: 4/30/2005 4:46 AM

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josh_l.

Player (101)

Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 189
Location: Austin

Heheh.. thanks. But I just discovered some ways of speeding up the transition scenes that I wasn't aware of, thus I should probably start over now anyway. ^^; I may as well take the opportunity to try a run with a bit less dashing and compare the total times... Probably will be a little while before I start work on this again (I'm getting a little tired of these early levels), but I will, honest. =3

http://girlyyy.com/ The El Viento TAS is the only decent thing I submitted here.

Posted: 4/30/2005 11:54 PM

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josh_l.

Player (101)

Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 189
Location: Austin

josh l. wrote:

Probably will be a little while before I start work on this again (I'm getting a little tired of these early levels), but I will, honest. =3

...or not. =P Gah, I'm an idiot. I have work to do today! Anyway... http://omake.studio-zoe.com/SuperHappy-WL3v2.zip (14/48 treasures - 3000 or so frames faster than previous version) This one I'll go ahead and finish. I probably won't post anymore incomplete versions unless I need advice on something. =3

http://girlyyy.com/ The El Viento TAS is the only decent thing I submitted here.

Posted: 5/1/2005 2:41 PM

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Nach

Emulator Coder

Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers

Don't forget you can fly unlimitedly by timing the jet's ons and offs properly. Also don't forget to use the debug mode in the game.

Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.

Posted: 5/1/2005 8:46 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Active player (277)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Jet? Debug mode? I think you've gotten this game confused with Wario Land 1. And why would you use debug mode, anyway? Isn't that cheating?

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 5/2/2005 11:01 AM

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josh_l.

Player (101)

Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 189
Location: Austin

Yeah... no jets in this game. Up to 28 treasures now. Only 20 left. =3 Considering the nature of the game, there aren't as many opportunities to create shortcuts as I wish there was (i.e. by using Wario's transformations in places you normally wouldn't), but I do take them as I can get them...

http://girlyyy.com/ The El Viento TAS is the only decent thing I submitted here.

Posted: 5/2/2005 11:06 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Active player (277)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Hmm, that's some pretty fast work. I'm looking forward to your finishing it!

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 5/3/2005 1:07 PM

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Nach

Emulator Coder

Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers

Bag of Magic Food wrote:

Jet? Debug mode? I think you've gotten this game confused with Wario Land 1. And why would you use debug mode, anyway? Isn't that cheating?

Oh got this game mixed up with Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3, sorry.

Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.

Posted: 8/19/2006 4:53 AM

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josh_l.

Player (101)

Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 189
Location: Austin

Bumping for the edited first post!

http://girlyyy.com/ The El Viento TAS is the only decent thing I submitted here.

Posted: 9/19/2006 11:37 AM

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Qlex

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Joined: 2/25/2006
Posts: 193
Location: Available

A very quick note to say : I didn't look at your v2, but I did look at the two first. I actually wanted to make a real-time speedrun of it, with time trails completed and all (I got 59 seconds at the first level), so I made a lot of research about this game, I found techniques you didn't use on your v1 (although I dunno if you found them for the v2), and, well, I think that, instead of doing my own run as planned before, I may give you all the tips and advices I have for this speedrun to be the best one EVER =) . Right now I'm very busy because of school, but I'll manage to see that v2 and give you a good analysis in a few days. Bye! EDIT : I tried to understand some of your choices using vba but could you actually make a list of what's faster :

You jump in order to climb on a scale faster, especially in vertical tunnels, but I think that you don't make full jump because the last frames of the jump make Wario move slow. care to describe the frame of the jump when you stop?
Which of these is the fastest when moving a lot, moving a little, etc... : Walking, charging, charging then down (I call it slide) or charging with jump (I call it chargejumping)?
When you get a key, walking, you manage to turn back immediately by charging the other way, but is it faster to make a little jump right before getting the key? The question refers to the Pool of Rain, when you get the grey key, but could refer to other situations
You get a forward boost by jumping up through a corner, I checked it. But do you think doing that forward boost when the corner of the block is near Wario is faster using a little jump? See about desert ruins, the doors that open when it's night or not, and do a little jump when you're about to pass through them. If it's faster say how many frames you gain.

If you could answer these questions, I would be really grateful, and could help you by understanding every of your choices so far. Right now I'm afraid you will have to redo your movie before doing anything, as you know you lost a LOT of time by not using chargejump against breakable blocks in the beginning, or not always running during the level selection, also because of the loss of several time savers that I'll talk about in a few time. I'll just say for now that if you do a frame perfect chargejump (B then down in 2 frames) against breakable blocks, you will get through them as if they were nothing and will be able to break the next block row if the ceiling is three blocks high, think about it! Bye.

Posted: 9/22/2006 8:57 AM

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josh_l.

Player (101)

Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 189
Location: Austin

Qlex wrote:

Right now I'm afraid you will have to redo your movie before doing anything, as you know you lost a LOT of time by not using chargejump against breakable blocks in the beginning, or not always running during the level selection, also because of the loss of several time savers that I'll talk about in a few time. I'll just say for now that if you do a frame perfect chargejump (B then down in 2 frames) against breakable blocks, you will get through them as if they were nothing and will be able to break the next block row if the ceiling is three blocks high, think about it! Bye.

Yeah, I figured this out later in the run, and ended up giving up since the interest seems rather low. I still haven't figured out how to optimize Wario's speed 100% (chargejumping seems to be the fastest, but you don't jump as far unless you walk a couple steps before charging, and then there's a bit of slowdown at the end.) If you want to pursue it, go right ahead. =O

http://girlyyy.com/ The El Viento TAS is the only decent thing I submitted here.

Posted: 9/23/2006 8:35 AM

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Qlex

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Joined: 2/25/2006
Posts: 193
Location: Available

Okay then, I'll do some more research about it and I'll give the time losses ASAP ;) REPOST EDIT : Okay, so the answers to my own questions ;) :

Full jump is slower (4 frames slower than the best jump), and the best jump can have different values : if you jump during 10 or 18 frames the final time will remain the same. The best thing is to do a 15 frames jump so there shouldn't be a mistake, but, as always, check if the jump was really the fastest ^^
The longest part >_> : Okay, as you said and as I thought, Wario has a different technique speed if he walks before the technique or not. When you hold right (or left), Wario starts building a speed he doesn't have when he does nothing, and, as long as you hold right (or left), after 15 frames Wario reaches his maximum speed, meaning that when he lands after falling and walks he is 4 frames faster than usual (although he doesn't have a perfect acceleration), when he does a charge or a chargejump he is way faster than usual, and so on... You can still have that state if you do a little jump (good for turning back but we'll see about it later), or you can lose that state after a charge, or after a chargejump landing, but there is a way out for the chargejump. First, if you want to be the fastest in short distances, a slide is faster than (or the same as) anything else as long as :
- You have to move for 2,5 blocks (or 40 pixels)
- You don't have to do anything after the slide other than falling (Not if you have to continue your way right or left, I mean falling vertically) or hitting the treasure.
A little jump after a slide is 7 frames slower (4 frames because of a little speed loss due to a normal little jump, 2 frames because of the little jump itself, 1 frame because before Wario jumps he stops), so don't do that after a slide if you have to move! The important about slide is that it is effectively the fastest when you don't have the 15 frames acceleration, and even with the 15 frames acceleration, it could be 1 frame faster than walking in some ways Then : In order to gain that acceleration :
- I know that before that, walking seems to be a bad idea(1 block for 15 frames, which means an average speed of 1,06 pixels per frame) whereas chargejump seems to be the best example. But, as we said, after a chargejump you lose acceleration.
- This way, a chargejump is and will remain a good idea as long as before you land, you push back then forward, this will make Wario stop just before he lands so he could be able to regain that acceleration right before landing. This can make Wario do a faster walking, charge, chargejump etc...
I forgot to see if charge then jump at the last frame of the charge is the best way but I don't think so according to the results, you should check it though. After you have acceleration, as long as you can, do a complete charge (2,08 pixels per frame), and for you not to get slowdown, jump right before the charge (chargejump = 2,047 pixels par frame) and cancel your chargejump before landing. I think you gain 10 frames each time you do that. When you need to jump, do as much chargejumps as possible, it's the fastest, unless exceptions (We'll see about it later), and if the ceiling is three blocks (48 pixels) high, walk, it's cleaner and as fast as anything. That's all for that part ^^
As discussed right before, turning back thanks to a chargejump is faster than anything, but if you can't do a chargejump, then make a little jump turn back. Check which one is faster when you are in front of the key.
Horizontal boost does exist, and should be used oftenly during the run as I think it can be faster in many ways. Unfortunately, that boost cannot help you walk on a flat ground faster, you even lose 1 frame. Horizontal boost can only be used when you need to land on other platforms than tho one Wario was on before he jumped.

Of course you will have to test other situations but I hope this is enough for you to redo the movie and make it perfect. Don't forget that in the level selection screen, you can hold a direction before the screen appears, it won't be slower, and this applies also to changing direction. Last things :

If you need to break blocks, do a frame-perfect chargejump without acceleration so you will get through the first row of blocks and hit the next row if the ceiling is three blocks high, you must be against the first row of block or if not it won't work.
Don't forget that you can protect Wario from donuts if you crouch.
When you eat the donut in air and then hit an enemy Wario will eat his donut with insane speed! Try to wait for the little guy to throw the donut and then jump in order to eat the donut above him. Of course, luck manipulation can help as you know that the slowdown due to landing can be cancelled by hitting an enemy.
If you don't think people will be interested in the run, then be entertaining by doing some funny things when you have nothing to do such as dances or anything, I'm sure anyway that this run will be appreciated.

Thanks, now I know about anything the game hid, and I don't think I would've searched about this alone. Let's hope I'll make my real-time speedrun of it someday ^^. Good luck with the run anyway, I'm looking forward to it. EDIT 2 : Forgot to say that the chargejump cancel landing must be frame perfect or else it will be 2 frames slower. Also don't forget to push left or right before landing normally, you will cancel the landing animation.

Posted: 10/10/2006 5:06 PM

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Qlex

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Joined: 2/25/2006
Posts: 193
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Anything new? Have you continued it or redone a part of it?

Posted: 10/16/2006 8:18 AM

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josh_l.

Player (101)

Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 189
Location: Austin

I don't have time to attempt it myself anytime soon. It'd be nice if a more experienced TASer would, but I wouldn't hold my breath. =P If I ever did go back to work on it, it wouldn't be quite as optimized as you'd like, I have a feeling. I'm really not as thorough as the guys who did the Mario and Sonic runs. I don't use frame advance or anything like that. =P

http://girlyyy.com/ The El Viento TAS is the only decent thing I submitted here.

Posted: 10/16/2006 5:42 PM

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Qlex

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Joined: 2/25/2006
Posts: 193
Location: Available

I don't have time to TAS this game, and I start having a big list of game to TAS, so I can't do it, unfortunately. The only thing I can do is giving you as much advices as I can, so if you want to attempt it again, don't hesitate to ask for help, and do use frame advance =P

Posted: 2/20/2007 7:20 PM

Post subject: Wario Land 3

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Rridgway

Joined: 2/13/2007
Posts: 448
Location: Calgary, Alberta

There are runs for Wario Land 1, 2 and 4, but the only Wario Land 3 run has been rejected. Does anyone know any major methods by which it could be improved? I plan to make a run of this game, and some suggestions would be good.

Renting this space for rent. Trying to fix image on this site. Please cut slack. As of April 6th, 2012: After a long absence, here we go again?

Posted: 2/20/2007 8:19 PM

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ventuz

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Joined: 10/4/2004
Posts: 940

I have thought about making run, but from looking at existing thread, blublu's run was very good - I don't think I could do better than that. Have you seen blublu's WIP movie? And I didn't know there was a completed SML3: Wario Land run (that you say was rejected)? Don't bother posting in existing thread, in my own opinion; existing thread is completely trash except blublu's WIP movie.

Posted: 2/20/2007 8:24 PM

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NrgSpoon

Joined: 6/14/2004
Posts: 646

Well, considering Wario Land 3 is not Super Mario Land 3, I don't think this thread was a bad idea.

I like my "thank you"s in monetary form.

Posted: 2/20/2007 8:41 PM

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ventuz

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Joined: 10/4/2004
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meh, he had his topic saying "Wario Land", now he edited to Wario Land 3. I'm not going bother editing.

Posted: 2/20/2007 8:52 PM

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NrgSpoon

Joined: 6/14/2004
Posts: 646

Well, for curiosity's sake, the old WL3 thread is here. The old run wasn't rejected so much as cancelled, because Josh wasn't happy with the quality. I'd like to see someone take another shot at this.

I like my "thank you"s in monetary form.

Posted: 2/21/2007 7:40 PM
(Edited: 3/13/2007 4:47 PM)

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Rridgway

Joined: 2/13/2007
Posts: 448
Location: Calgary, Alberta

The big decision will be if dashing-jumping is faster than walking and just dashing when you need it. Wario is fast dashing but there is a several frame wait before he can move again.

Renting this space for rent. Trying to fix image on this site. Please cut slack. As of April 6th, 2012: After a long absence, here we go again?

Posted: 2/22/2007 12:08 AM

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Chamale

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Player (178)

Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1352
Location: Canada

Apparently doing a charge jump is best, according to Qlex, provided you hit back then forward before landing. This kills his speed and somehow results in him not slowing down later.

Posted: 2/22/2007 7:25 AM

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