VS Pinball

Game Description

Um...it's pinball.

Why VS Pinball?

This is a follow-up to the submission of NES Pinball. In the discussion on that submission, I noted that using the VS ROM, I couldn't beat that submission using the basic DIP switch settings for the VS ROM.
£e Nécroyeur informed that the default DIP switch settings were for Slow ball movement speed and suggested I revisit the VS version. After changing the DIP switch settings to allow for Fast ball speed, I was able to beat the time of the previous submission. And here it is.

Game Endpoint

The NES game's manual states that the game is 'winnable' by rescuing the maiden.

For me, if a game's stated win condition is met, the game is completed (even when play can continue thereafter). Thus, saving the maiden is all that is necessary to complete this game.

BizHawk DIP Switch Settings

  • Switches 1-3 are all OFF to allow Free-Play
    • According to this site, technically these three swtiches should be ON to yield free-play.
    • Setting the machine to Free-Play avoids having to credit the game with a 'coin' input and thus saves time.
  • Switch 4 is for side drain walls and is left OFF as it has no impact on the run.
  • Switch 5 is for the score necessary to earn a bonus ball and is also left OFF due to no impact on the run.
  • Switches 6 & 7 are for number of balls per credit; default is 3 balls and these are left OFF due to no impact on the run.
  • Switch 8 is for ball speed and is set to ON to play the game with fast ball speed.

VS ROM Emulation

Though the Nintendo VS ROMS were technically utilized in Arcade cabinets, BizHawk emulates them using NES emulation with the additional 'VS Settings' (DIP Swithces) enabled under the 'NES' menu in BizHawk.

TASing Process

  • This run uses the Player 2 Start button (which is available immediately because of the Free-Play setting), yielding a 2-player game.
    • It is possible to only have a 1 player game by switching the controller ports in the controller settings (or having both controllers connected). For whatever reason, starting the game with Player 1's select button adds various frames compared to using Player 2's button. Thus the run ends up being a couple frames longer with otherwise identical inputs after re-syncing.
      • These extra frames are present when starting with P1 regardless of wheter only P1's controller or both controllers are connected. Similarly, starting with P2 yields the faster run with just P2 connected or both controllers connected.
    • Even though P2 start button is used, the game takes that player as Player 1. This is likely due to the nature/shape of the Arcade Cabinets themselves.
      • For those not familiar, there were different styles of VS cabinets.
        • In the Red-Tent style cabinets, players could sit on either side of the cabinets and the video output would be shared as necessary to either side depending on the game. If I remember correctly, it was even possible to play solo games on either side as well.
        • Upright angled side-by-side VS Cabinets also exisited and functioned the same way.
      • The game likely takes whichever player hits Start first as Player 1 regardless of which side of the cabinet they were present.
  • The gameplay process was addressed the same as the NES run.
    • Launch the ball at a power level that allows for the ideal exit of the top main screen, and use the flippers on the upper screen to slap the ball down to the lower screen in a path that gets the ball to the Bonus Room chute as quickly as possible.
    • Save the maiden in the bonus room.
    • Input was ended as early as possible while still allowing the maiden to escape (then stupidly allow herself to become trapped again).
  • To continue to a Game Over screen, would require sacrificing all balls for both players.

Acceptability/Publication

To my knowlege, there are no current VS games on the site under either NES or Arcade publications. If this run is accepted, I believe it should be published under the Arcade 'system' as opposed to NES even though the emulation is NES.
The NES version submission currently sits as "delayed" on the workbench; I'm not sure these two runs will be deemed different enough to publish both. It's possible that only one can be accepted due to the similarities of gameplay. If this is the case, this run obviously has the faster time.

ThunderAxe31: Judging.
ThunderAxe31: There have been some discussion about what system should we consider VS games and if they should be able to obsolete NES games and vice versa. From what I could gather, VS games are a conversion of existing NES games, mostly consisting of technical changes. I can't say it for sure about all VS games, but in regards of Pinball, the VS version is extremely similar, so they can obsolete each other.
The condition for beating this game seems correct to me. The author did go as far as mentioning the official manual of the NES version, and it seems to be applicable for the VS version, too.
Beating the game resulted faster for the VS version, thanks to setting an arcade dip switch that makes the ball move faster. This is a legit usage of game settings, so it's fine to make use of it to beat the game faster. The fact that the NES version doesn't feature such kind of setting doesn't make it enough different to be considered as a separate game, so the NES version submission will be rejected in favor of this VS submission.
I want to note that it could be interesting to also see a TAS that aims for scoring 100,000 points, as that affectively triggers some sort of "hard mode", for which the flippers become invisible. I'm not sure if that could be considered as full completion, though. We'll talk about it again if someone shows interest in making such TAS.
Since this movie does beat the game and does it optimally, I'm accepting it for Standard.
Note for the publisher: wait for a senior to mark this submission as Arcade system instead than NES, as decided by feos.
Samsara: The file's been replaced with a version that correctly marks VS as Arcade.

EZGames69: Processing...

TASVideoAgent
They/Them
Moderator
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 14856
Location: 127.0.0.1
This topic is for the purpose of discussing #7276: DrD2k9's Arcade VS. Pinball in 00:16.92
Darkman425
He/They
Editor, Judge, Skilled player (1054)
Joined: 9/19/2021
Posts: 242
Location: Texas
Neat, the escape jingle actually got to play fully this time.
Switch friend code: SW-2632-3851-3712
Fortranm
He/Him
Editor, Experienced player (775)
Joined: 10/19/2013
Posts: 1114
Having watched both runs, I find this more amusing and think the VS version and the home console version of this game should be able to obsolete each other. As for the publication, imo it makes the most sense to label it as "VS." and put it on the NES page, similar to what is done for FDS runs. If appropriate and feasible, maybe it can be listed on the Arcade page at the same time.
Katistrofic2
He/Him
Player (51)
Joined: 6/13/2021
Posts: 2
Location: USA
Awesome!
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11264
Location: RU
Arcade machines have a lot of variations and some of them are similar to home consoles, but labeling each arcade machine differently will result in complete mess IMO. Having all VS games as Arcade makes the most sense to me, and then they can be linked from the NES version runs.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Judge, Skilled player (1278)
Joined: 9/12/2016
Posts: 1645
Location: Italy
feos wrote:
Arcade machines have a lot of variations and some of them are similar to home consoles, but labeling each arcade machine differently will result in complete mess IMO. Having all VS games as Arcade makes the most sense to me, and then they can be linked from the NES version runs.
I have to agree. The names of most arcade machines are too much obscure for the general audience, so it makes sense to go with a more general naming.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Fortranm
He/Him
Editor, Experienced player (775)
Joined: 10/19/2013
Posts: 1114
feos wrote:
then they can be linked from the NES version runs.
But what if the 2 versions end up obsoleting each other and there is no "active" NES movie left? It definitely will be messy to "label each arcade machine differently", but there are only so many that are based directly on a home console that is well-emulated enough so it will be far from doing it for each arcade engine. Moreover, as most of the games, at least in the case of VS. (and PlayChoice-10), are directly based on games from the corresponding home console, it is much more likely for one who looks for movies of those games to check the home console movie list page first.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11264
Location: RU
Fortranm wrote:
But what if the 2 versions end up obsoleting each other and there is no "active" NES movie left? It definitely will be messy to "label each arcade machine differently", but there are only so many that are based directly on a home console that is well-emulated enough so it will be far from doing it for each arcade engine. Moreover, as most of the games, at least in the case of VS. (and PlayChoice-10), are directly based on games from the corresponding home console, it is much more likely for one who looks for movies of those games to check the home console movie list page first.
How many of those games are actually identical between Arcade and NES?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Fortranm
He/Him
Editor, Experienced player (775)
Joined: 10/19/2013
Posts: 1114
feos wrote:
How many of those games are actually identical between Arcade and NES?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_VS._System#List_of_games Some of them have more differences than others, but all of them have a NES counterpart. It is likely safe to assume most people looking for movies of these games would check the NES page if they aren't seeing them on the Arcade page. Also, if we give them a VS label, they can be listed on both pages, right?
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11264
Location: RU
https://github.com/TASVideos/tasvideos/pull/747 was approved and merged, but the VS flag is not in any bizhawk release yet, so I think it's okay to just change system to Arcade for this movie and finally it can be judged.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Bigbass
He/Him
Moderator
Joined: 2/2/2021
Posts: 156
Location: Midwest
Note for future verification efforts: The NES version of this TAS does verify on console. As I suspected, I'm unable to verify this VS version on a NES. Via the Everdrive, the Pinball (VS) rom does work on the NES, but the playback desyncs (fails to launch the pinball). Probably because of the DIP switches not existing. Idk if this is something that a flashcart would be able to emulate, or if it simply won't be possible on a NES.
TAS Verifications | Mastodon | Github | Discord: @bigbass
Post subject: Movie published
TASVideoAgent
They/Them
Moderator
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 14856
Location: 127.0.0.1
This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [4584] Arcade VS Pinball by DrD2k9 in 00:16.92
ShesChardcore
She/Her
Skilled player (1505)
Joined: 2/23/2022
Posts: 131
Location: MN
Hello. I wanted to chime in on the NES vs Vs discussion, specifically for the 100k points category (which I am interested in TASing or collaborating on with someone more experienced.) I currently hold the RTA WRs for NES 100k including a full game manip of Game B using minimal inputs (I actually don't ever flip the ball in the traditional way, I do one release flip downward and a couple holds) though the time can be considerably faster through intended means and I was mostly just showing off haha. Plus I just love me some Pinball. For Rescuing Pauline I definitely agree that Vs can obsolete NES as they're similar enough for the most part. However there are numerous differences between the 2 versions when it comes to scoring and gameplay features. The most obvious difference is that the bottom screen bumpers are worth 300 on Vs and 100 on NES. This might make the routes completely different. On NES you basically want the penguins as fast as possible and keep the ball on the top screen for the double points that they provide and hit the 1000 rollover a bunch of times. Penguins can be easily manipulated in game A, but IIRC game B can't use the same manip due to the ball speed difference and the movement of the slot stopper. For Vs it may be prudent to find a good path to the bottom screen and rack up the points with good shots and angles into the bumpers. On Vs, going into the Pauline exit hole (phrasing!) spits you to the bottom screen instead of rejecting you back out to the top like NES. You can also save the chicks twice in the bottom screen on Vs and get a ball save that deposits you directly into the bumpers after a short cutscene. This is not in the NES version but there could be an optimal time to trigger it to get maximum use out of the bumpers. There are other minor differences like Pauline being worth fewer points in Vs and those points accrue in a separate score (like a "bonus" in real pinball.) Anyway sorry for the rambling! I am just an NES Pinball enthusiast and I'm willing to help regardless of the decision on obsolescence.