Topic by Fabian

Posted: 6/15/2005 8:39 PM

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Fabian

Former player

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

I started doing a speedrun of this game for fun about the same time you started this topic, I quickly gave up though when I couldn't get that snake to appear where I wanted him. I was a bit faster than you until then, but I guess that was intentional on your part to kill the snake as fast as possible. Anyway, I can't really see how you'd be able to get to the pyramid without the boots, although I've certainly thought about it. If you pick up lots of heart containers, potions and the elixir, maybe, but that sounds more time consuming anyway. I hope you can do it though. Also, this is the only speedrun being made that I'm really interested in, and I'd really love to see your progress. Please reconsider not sharing the file until it's finished. If you want, you could always send it to me privately. Good luck!

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 6/16/2005 9:21 PM

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maTO

Skilled player (1485)

Joined: 4/28/2005
Posts: 240
Location: Finland

Yeah Aqfaq, let me see if you have made any mistakes :) You could PM me the link to the file :]

Projects: Warlock, Ren & Stimpy (impr) / Generations Lost (impr.)

Posted: 6/16/2005 10:04 PM
(Edited: 4/14/2006 7:30 PM)

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2460)

Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Oh well, I changed my mind. Here is the updated movie file: [removed] All feedback is welcome! Edit: Fixed the link. Edit-2: Purposeless link removed.

Posted: 6/17/2005 1:49 AM

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Fabian

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Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

It looks very solid so far, good work. I experimented a bit with the desert, and I was surprised about how much easier it was than I remembered. I had 5 heart containers (also took the one in Poseidon's Shrine), a potion, the elixir and with leather armor I reached the very last scorpion (after having fetched the key) before the door when my health ran out, and I played full speed without very much optimization. It still looks tough though without getting better armor. If that would be enough, you could skip everything from when you get the pygmy sword until you get oasis boots, although you wouldn't get Return. I guess that still would be a huge time save all in all.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 6/17/2005 1:14 PM

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2460)

Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Thank you Fabian. Does the quality of armor really reduce the damage of the heat in the desert?

Posted: 6/17/2005 8:15 PM

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Fabian

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Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

To be honest I'm not sure, but that was what I thought when I played this game on console many years ago. I might try it out some more later tonight.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 6/17/2005 8:53 PM

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Fabian

Former player

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

No, you were right, the quality of the armor is irrelevant. However, I managed to reach the Sun door of the pyramid without the Oasis Boots after I fetched another heart container! So with six hearts it's doable, I reached the door with 3/4 left of the last heart. This should require some route planning. You've obviously thought more about that than I have, but the options I see is to either get the heart container (and possibly the return magic) in Poseidon's Shrine after fetching the Pygmy Sword, and take the heart found in the secret door in the castle (?) between Alsedo and Purapril (or instead of this one, the one in the Lilipad temple if that turns out to be quicker) OR If you skip Poseidon's Shrine altogether (which I'm guessing is the fastest route, but I'm not sure how much time Return saves you later in the game), you can take the heart in Gragg & Glagg's temple instead of the one in the Shrine. Another possibilty is to buy Medicine before defeating Myconid, but I'm not sure if you can have two different potions at the same time. If it's possible, my best guess is that the fastest route would be this: When in Alsedo first time, buy Medicine. In the Lilipad temple you might want to get the heart there, to me this sounds about as fast as getting the secret one between Alsedo and Purapril. At some point you also have to buy Potion, of course.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 6/19/2005 1:54 PM

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2460)

Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Excellent, Fabian! That route is certainly worth trying. I hate swimming anyway! Oh, I just remembered that the return spell saves a lot of time when you get the Pygmy Armor (near the beginning of the game). Now, it is very hard to tell what route is the fastest one without trying them. Somehow I feel that this movie will not be finished anytime soon... but maybe we'll see quality in the end. :)

Posted: 6/19/2005 2:11 PM

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Fabian

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Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

I'll try to test some of these ideas out in the next couple of days, it should be easy to get a good idea of which routes are the quickest without playing absolutely perfect. I also realized now that if you have medicine and the ocarina and try to buy a third item (potion), I have no idea what happens. I'll try that out too, but my guess is you're unable to buy the third item, which would mean you're forced to find two additional hearts instead of one.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 6/21/2005 10:23 AM

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Fabian

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Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

After some more experimentation my new guess for fastest route is this: Don't take the heart in the Lilipad temple. After getting the trident, buy potion on your way up to the inn in Purapril. (Or maybe buy it in Lilipad, if that's quicker), save, and go get the secret heart in castle between Alsedo and Purapril. Then get the Pygmy Sword, followed by heart + return magic in Poseidon's Shrine, use return back to inn, go get Pygmy Armor, return to inn, save, and cross the desert. This path would require taking one hit less in the boss battle in Lilipad temple, since you need the elixir in the desert. If it's faster to take the heart in the temple than the secret one later, this wouldn't be an issue. I haven't tested which one actually is faster, so you'll need to check that out.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 6/21/2005 11:52 AM

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2460)

Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Good work Fabian! How about getting Pygmy Armor later using Ceramic Boots? I guess Ceramic Boots must be bought anyway. I'll probably try some version your route when I have time. If you get new ideas, please post them! :)

Posted: 6/21/2005 5:16 PM

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2460)

Joined: 4/8/2005
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Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Get the heart in the Lilipad temple. Buy potion from Purapril. Save. Get the Pygmy Sword. Get heart and return magic from Poseidon's Shrine. Use return. Save. Cross the desert. (Get the Pygmy Armor later.) That's very probably the fastest route.

Posted: 6/29/2005 3:04 AM

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Fabian

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Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

Yes, that does sound like the fastest route. Are you making any progress with this run? Also, I quickly tried using Return after defeating the demon king to skip the Prince's monologue, but unfortunately the trigger for removing the lightning wall which seperates Shion from the spaceship seems to be entering the door which returns you to the wall. After returning to the inn, the wall was still there. I also tried to figure out ways to damage Shion near the lightning wall, to possibly glitch him past it, which would mean you could skip the entire demon king part. Unfortunately I came up short, but it might be something to keep in mind somewhere else in the game. The problem is that in the places I can think of where this trick possibly could be utilized (passing the seal when entering ice world without the bracelet, and taking damage to "double jump" when you fetch one of the gems in ice castle (can't remember which one it is off the top of my head)), there are no monsters avaliable. Just throwing some ideas out. Long post with no substance, sorry about that :) Good luck, keep us posted!

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 6/29/2005 9:05 AM

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2460)

Joined: 4/8/2005
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Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Long post with no substance? I don't think so. Thanks for your post. Sorry, I have not done anything for the movie since my last post on this topic. I'm away from my own computer for a while and there are some other things to do now. As I said before: this movie is not going to be finished soon. Luckily there are other great submissions to enjoy while waiting. :) Oh, I tried hitting the second statue in the ice palace through the wall... without success.

Posted: 10/3/2005 8:45 AM

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Fabian

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Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

Still no plans on working on this?

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 10/3/2005 2:03 PM

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2460)

Joined: 4/8/2005
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Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

It's true that I haven't been doing anything for this project lately. Some other games have completely distracted me from this. The route is quite clear now, but this is surprisingly hard game to optimize. I enjoy abusing programming errors, but Wonderboy in Monsterworld seems to have none. If someone found even a tiny little flaw in the game, it would be much more interesting to produce this movie. By the way, does someone know what kind of enemies can drop magic refills? I have never seen others than Ice World monsters drop them.

Posted: 10/3/2005 2:25 PM

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Fabian

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Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

Hmm let's see.. Working from memory here. Other than every Ice World monster, I know for sure two of the three monsters in the volcano can drop magic refills. I'm not sure about the bird. On the way to the Demon King, I think most monsters can drop magic refills, definately the knights in armor and the ones in that labyrinth. I also *think* the spear throwing pygmies on the way to Begonia (the dragon village) can drop magic refills, but I'm not so sure about them. Those are all I can think of right now.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 10/3/2005 6:09 PM

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2460)

Joined: 4/8/2005
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Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Thanks for the info. This will be useful if/when I get my attention back to this project.

Posted: 10/4/2005 11:21 PM

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Fabian

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Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

I hope you do (get your attention back that is), I very much enjoyed the work you did on this.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 3/1/2006 2:40 PM

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2460)

Joined: 4/8/2005
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Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Angerfist wants to see this movie done and I would like to record it. All I need is a tool to view the results of item drops at any time and I'm back at this project. I know that the item drops are not manipulatable, they are solely based on the clock. Also, enemies are mostly not manipulatable. It's almost like the whole game universe starts moving at the same time and always does the exactly same pattern. No matter what screen you are positioned in, all the enemies in the game follow the clock. Mostly it's possible to just run through the screens at full speed and avoid every monster by jumping. The huge problem emerges when you have to decide where/how to waste time to collect coins. At some point, some monster's simple movements are synced so that it gets on your way, that's unavoidable. You have to decide what to do: 1) Kill it + collect coins ---> many frames lost, but got some money 2) Hit the monster, but don't collect coins ---> less time lost, but no coins gained 3) Run to the monster ---> waste time, waste health, no money 4) Use magic ---> Best solution, but can be used only a couple of times. The decision is made, but.... Uh-oh, the clock goes *tic-tac* and you realize that the position of all future monsters (relative to you) depends on the decision you made, because different amount of time was wasted. If you're lucky, you can run about a minute without bumping to any monster. It may not sound bad, but there is no simple way to calculate when to use magic, kill monsters and collect coins. Finding the optimal choices would require many (hundreds, thousands?) of full game test runs, a movie-tree. And sub-optimal test runs are useless, because the game clock decides the item drops and monster placement. Here are two small movies that demonstrate the problem. No matter what is done, eventually some monster gets on the way. I'm stuck at 1:20 and the movie is going to be about 40 mins. Well, I've made some experiments with a savestate cracker. I've found out that savestate address FCB8 seems to have something to do with the item drops. That's the highest hi-tech level I can reach. I can't code anything myself. Item drop viewer wouldn't solve all problems, but if I had that kind of tool, I'd have much more motivation to record this run.

Posted: 3/1/2006 3:58 PM

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Fabian

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Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

Just wanted to say I think it's great that you've regained interest in finishing this. Unfortunately I have no help whatsoever to offer about the "manipulation" of monsters and the problems associated with it, but I hope someone else does. I'll try to help out in any way I can with the actual gameplay like route planning if it's not finished already. Good luck!

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 3/1/2006 11:51 PM

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2460)

Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Thanks Fabian. The game is quite linear if you know where to go. There's a short description of the non-obvious part of the route somewhere in this thread. I might try to record some easy walkthrough someday. It may be too much to ask someone to create a new tool for this project, but I'd highly appreciate if someone analyzed the item drop mechanism a bit further. Even telling me how to do it is better than nothing, so that I'd get some idea of what I'm asking here. I'm mostly an in-game scientist at the moment.

Posted: 3/5/2006 11:33 AM

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2460)

Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Here's some route plan made with Excel. Those who know the game probably understand most of it.

Posted: 3/5/2006 10:01 PM
(Edited: 4/14/2006 7:33 PM)

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2460)

Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

The first boss is defeated again! 2,5 seconds faster compared to the previous movie. About 1,5 seconds were saved with better boss strategy. The file is updated: [removed] Edit: Purposeless link removed.

Posted: 3/5/2006 10:02 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (432)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

*pep-talk* Thats my boy! Keep it up.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P