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Posted: 5/1/2007 10:25 PM
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Chamale
He/Him
Player (182)
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1355
Location: Canada
Wait a minute, I thought Silph doesn't matter. IIRC, isn't that where you get Silph Scope, which isn't necessary?
Posted: 5/1/2007 11:02 PM
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Mr._Pwnage
Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223
Silph Scope is in the Game Corner underground, which is already skipped. Silph Co. is where you clean out Team Rocket, who blocks the way to the gym. I tried a couple more things with no success. If Snorlax is skipped and you go to Fuschia early, the possibility exists of doing Glitch City, but it proved to be useless in Celadon (drops you off at the back entrance to the mansion--I hoped it would drop you off at the Gym thus enabling Cut to be skipped, at least if you're willing to go without Fly), Saffron (drops you off at the Poke Mart--I hoped you would spawn on top of the guard at either Silph or the gym, and thus be able to bypass them and walk in), and Route 23 (you get stuck in a glitched wall with the entrance to Victory Road onscreen--if not for that, you would be able to skip all gyms except Brock, provided you don't enter any Pokemon Centers after Pewter and are thus able to make it back to route 23 within 500 steps and without Fly).
Posted: 5/2/2007 2:11 AM
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GGFan
Joined: 5/2/2007
Posts: 2
From samthedigital: *You have to fight the glitched Pokemon battle, there is no need to save or anything like that. The glitched Pokemon has to be glitched to the east of Vermillion if you want Snorlax to disapear, and that is the only real necessity. I tested it in other places but Snorlax does not disappear.*
Posted: 5/2/2007 10:42 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Hi guys. After playing around with the dokokashira glitch recently, I was motivated to try some more things out. I'm convinced that there is probably some way to quickly glitch through to the end of even the (U) versions of these games. Take a look at these two movies: pokemonyellow_missingno0x79_bugcatching.vbm pokemonyellow_missingno0x79_saffron.vbm The first movie pulls Jessie out of nowhere and finishes with an endless merry-go-round, but I thought it was kind of funny... The second shows how you could enter Sabrina's gym while the guard is blocking it. Because I'm lazy, both of these movies were initiated with the GameShark codes 017958D0, 010726D1 in order to bring up a level 7 Missingno 0x79. With a bit more coordination and planning, maybe it could be done legit starting with the trainer-fly glitch. With these sorts of glitch modes I think you can probably skip other major parts of the game, maybe even the guards on Victory Road. However, it still isn't a true warping technique (like dokokashira). edit: I got around to reading some other parts of this thread just now. Apparently the hope of getting through this guard has been brought up before!
Mr. Pwnage wrote:
I don't think Pokemon Tower can be skipped, because the guard at Silph blocks the way until you get through that (unless you can do something to make him disappear just as Snorlax does, or better yet do the same for the Saffron Gym guard).
Posted: 5/3/2007 12:03 AM
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GGFan
Joined: 5/2/2007
Posts: 2
From samthedigital again: "With these sorts of glitch modes I think you can probably skip other major parts of the game, maybe even the guards on Victory Road. However, it still isn't a true warping technique (like dokokashira). " "edit: I got around to reading some other parts of this thread just now. Apparently the hope of getting through this guard has been brought up before! Mr. Pwnage wrote:" "I don't think Pokemon Tower can be skipped, because the guard at Silph blocks the way until you get through that (unless you can do something to make him disappear just as Snorlax does, or better yet do the same for the Saffron Gym guard)." It doesn't work, he doesn't disapear. If you want to do any testing with the glitch to make Snorlax disapear, any effects are carried to the next route over only. It doesn't do anything to the route the glitch is used on. If you FCBM on Route 16 (where Snorlax is), then he doesn't disapear, but if you FCBM on the route beside him (east of Vermillion), then he will disapear.
Posted: 5/3/2007 12:51 AM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Oh, I think this Missingno-based corruption isn't directly tied to the FCBM-based glitch for avoiding Snorlax. This is just a way of getting through a guard without making him disappear (then in theory, you could use Dig to get out after beating Sabrina). For that guard per se, if you can instead use the same trick used to make Snorlax disappear, all the better since that's faster slightly than summoning a Missingno. I did a bit more testing and found that moving guards and other sprites doesn't remain effective outside of the room where Missingno was fought. Unfortunately this rules out a lot of possibilities, including Saffron city and the badge check place before Victory Road. =(
Posted: 5/3/2007 2:24 AM
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Chamale
He/Him
Player (182)
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1355
Location: Canada
What if you did the glitch on the route north of Saffron, then were in Saffron? Would the guards be gone then?
Posted: 5/3/2007 3:04 PM
(Edited: 5/3/2007 3:18 PM)
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Nope, but I figured out another way. Simply use 'fly' (instead of pressing B or saving) when the menu pops up at the end of the trainer-fly glitch. Then you can fly to Saffron city and battle Missingno upon arrival. Now the problem I'm having is that this Missingno always ends up freezing the game instead of ensuing in a glitch battle. I have tried various Missingnos, but as far as I can tell, using fly or teleport will indirectly lead to the game freezing at the start of the battle. I recall back when using a GameShark with Pokemon Yellow on real hardware, it was also hard to determine the factors that distinguish Missingno to freeze, crash, or just glitch up the game. I didn't have time try all the possible glitch pokemon, and I didn't do any testing on red/blue. Maybe someone else might have better luck with this.
Posted: 5/3/2007 3:08 PM
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Chamale
He/Him
Player (182)
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1355
Location: Canada
Well, given that we don't want glitch pokemon, we want Nidoking, Gengar or Nidoqueen... It's getting confusing to follow this over dozens of posts. Can someone please post a simple 1. do this 2. do that sort of thing? EDIT: On another note, I've done some testing on the hard-reset glitch. It seems that it fucks up the RNG like nobody's business. It won't be possible to make a run with it, because some things aren't recorded by the emulator but do affect the results.
Posted: 5/4/2007 11:01 PM
(Edited: 5/5/2007 1:49 PM)
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Chamale, the goal isn't to catch Missingno, but instead to use Missingno to glitch up the game and walk through guards. Sorry for the confusion. It looks my idea doesn't work anyway due to those limitations I mentioned. I've moved on to looking at the more promising glitch from last month. The Snorlax byte is at D5A9, so I monitored this address. In samthedigital's movie, this value is modified around the moment of pressing B to cancel the menu after loading the game. If I opt not to save, the value changes the moment the battle with Chansey is done. As has been pointed out, it is not necessary to save the game. I've tested a few of the other glitching options that primo mentioned. Below I've listed out the various effects I found. Each option described with the following five-entry format: trainer who initiates trainer-fly, city flown/teleported to, memory address, value change, effective bitmask (calculated from value change), known effect 1. Youngster on Route 11, Vermillion City, D5A9, 01->21, 0x20, Snorlax disappears 2. Rocket on Mt. Moon, Mt. Moon entrance, D5B3, 00->08, TM12 disappears (corrected) 3. Gambler on Route 8, Cerulean City, D5AA, 16->56, 0x40, ? 4. Bug Catcher on Route 1 (Pokemon Yellow), Pewter City, none 5. Jr Trainer on Route 24, ?, none 6. Rocket on Silph Co. 9th floor, Cerulean City, D5BC, 00->10, 0x10, ? 7. Biker on Route 16, Saffron City, D5AA, 1E->3E, 0x20, ? 8. Gambler on Route 8 (Pokemon Yellow), Cerulean City, D5A9, 3C->BC, 0x80, ? 9. Youngster on Route 11 (Pokemon Yelllow), Saffron City, none 10. Youngster on Route 11 (Pokemon Yelllow), Vermillion City, D5A8, 03->43, 0x40, Snorlax disappears 11. Youngster on Route 11, Saffron City, D5A7, 02->06, 0x04, ? 12. Youngster on Route 11, Pallet Town, D5A6, 73->7B, 0x08, ? 13. Youngster on Route 11, Fuchsia City, D5A9, 01->21, 0x20, Snorlax disappears (identical to the Vermillion route) 14. Youngster on Route 11, Viridian City, D5A6, 73->7B, 0x08, ? (identical to the Pallet route) 15. Youngster on Route 11, Indigo Plateau, D5B1, 00->08, 0x08, ? (cheat) 16. Youngster on Route 11, Cinnabar Island, D5AF, 10->11, 0x01, ? (cheat) 17. Youngster on Route 11, Celadon City, D5AA, 1C->1E, 0x02, ? (cheat) 18. Youngster on Route 11, Lavender Town, D5A9, 01->21, 0x20, ? (identical to the Vermillion route) 19. Youngster on Route 11, Cerulean City, D5AA, 1C->5C, 0x40, ? 20. Gambler on Route 8, Indigo Plateau, D5B1, 00->08, 0x08, ? (cheat) 21. Gambler on Route 8, Rock Tunnel, D5A9, 01->11, 0x10, ? All values (except route numbers) are in hex. The effective bitmask is just the end value minus the start value. It should always set exactly 1 bit. The entries labeled (cheat) mean that I used the walk-through-walls code in order to find a trainer to fix my start button. It was necessary at Indigo Plateau, while for Cinnabar and Celadon it wouldn't have been necessary had I been further along in the game. Here's what I do for each test: Initiate and complete a trainer-fly glitch. Finish it off while watching addresses D5A6 through D5C3 in the memory viewer. This is where the game stores records of items appearing and disappearing. For the Bug Catcher and Jr Trainer, I didn't see any bytes changed. I have a few theories for why this happens, but before jumping to conclusions we should test the other spots in Pokemon Yellow. The TM12 item occurs in the cave level just before the level with the Rocket. Just as Snorlax is on Route 12 while the Youngster is on Route 11, this agrees with what samthedigital about adjacent rooms. I did all the above tests using savestates from primo's and FractalFusion's movies. If any of you already happen to have movies or savestates that go through some of the other trainer-fly (FCBM) opportunities, that would be really helpful. Edit: Added Silph Co., Biker, additional Pokemon Yellow tests, and additional Youngster tests. Edit: Realized that the memory address written to (and whether or not any address is written to) is decided (at least in part) by the location flown/teleported to. I observed this when Snorlax failed to disappear if I flew to Saffron instead of Vermillion. I've updated the listings to include this location info. Edit: The bitmask 0x10 on A7D5 is what it takes to remove the guard from in front of the Saffron gym. Entry #11 suggests we are finding the key to unlocking this shortcut... Edit: Completed tests for every fly-to location. Our next task will be the remaining Pokemon Centers.
Posted: 5/5/2007 2:18 AM
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primorial_soup
Player (88)
Joined: 1/15/2006
Posts: 333
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Hanzou, I love you. In a purely platonic way, of course. I'm just going to summarize some thoughts I've had, mainly for my own benefit, and anyone else who might be exploring this glitch. The ideal situation would be to skip the Poké Tower entirely. In order for this to work, the guard in front of Saffron Gym needs to be forcefully removed, as well as the guard in front of the Office Building, and preferably the second Snorlax as well, to allow a faster route to Fuschia. Even better than removing the guard in front of the Office Building would be to remove the guy standing in front of Veridian Gym, as then the Office Building could also be skipped entirely. Other things that have been mentioned: - Guards on Victory Road. I don't think it will be possible to get around them using this particular glitch, mainly because they are always present at a fixed location (which would seem to indicate that there is no memory value which would determine if they are there or not). - Boulders/Barriers on Victory Road. When you enter the cave area of Victory Road, the position of the Boulders is reset, as well as the Barriers. Even if it were possible to move/remove them externally, I don't think it would help any. I have about 70 save states for both my Gyarados run and Mew run which I will be making available to you. The Mew run would probably be more helpful I would think, as I had an Abra very early on. Did I mention that I love you?
print reduce(lambda x,p:p/2*x/p+2*10**1000,range(6643,1,-2))
Posted: 5/5/2007 4:27 AM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Hey I edited my post above to show more complete tests. I've covered every Pokemon Center that can be reached with fly. Originally I thought we would have to test every possible trainer that can initiate an FCBM, but the last few tests confirm that only the teleport/fly destination matters. In fact it's only the initial destination (reached by teleport, fly, dig, or an escape rope) that has any effect. After that's done you can fly anywhere else before completing the sequence, but any side-trips won't change the outcome. edit: The Silph Co. test seems to show an exception to above rule. Maybe an FCBM from Victory Road will also show something unusual. The bitmask for the guard in front of the office building is 0x80 at D5A8, and the bitmask for the Snorlax west of Celadon is 0x02 at D5AA. edit: I read that the only Pokemon Centers outside of cities are Mt. Moon and Rock Tunnel. Yeah, skipping the guards on route 23 turned out to be hopeless even with the Missingno glitching. If you haven't yet watched pokemonyellow_missingno0x79_saffron.vbm from my earlier post, please do so you'll know what I'm talking about. It's very different from the mechanism used to remove Snorlax. When I forced an attempt using cheats at route 23, it turned out that the badge checks are triggered independent of where the guard is standing anyway. I found the end result somewhat amusing: pokemonyellow_missingno0x79_route23.vbm The guy in front of Viridian Gym can't be removed, but he's not what blocks the entrance to the gym. The "the door is locked" condition is unfortunately set by some other byte in a different region of memory. edit: Once I noticed that we have 0x02 on D5AA, I went ahead and did the trick to make the other Snorlax disappear! I'll post a vbm later. edit: Two demos: pokemonred_snorlax_west.vbm and pokemonred_antidote.vbm. The second one clearly isn't a very useful trick. The rules for how this glitch works are as follows: 1. The object that ends up disappearing is the last vanishable object encountered before the menu pops up at the end of the trainer-fly glitch. This can be a legendary pokemon (e.g. Snorlax), a character (e.g. guard in Saffron), or an item (e.g. antidote on Route 1). It may be encountered before trainer-fly is initiated, during the time the start button is disabled, or even after the start-button is reactivated. 2. A room has at most one vanishable object, and that object is "encountered" just by entering the room even if the object does not appear on-screen. If this one object has already been removed, in the end the glitch has no effect. On route 1, this one object is the antidote. In Saffron City, this is the guard blocking the way to Copycat. Thus, it does not seem possible to remove either of the other two guards in Saffron. 3. Many places such as Vermillion City have no vanishable objects. This is a good thing. 4. The glitch works on both Pokemon Red/Blue and Pokemon Yellow. These rules can explain all of the earlier tests including obscure ones such as Mt. Moon and Silph Co. Recording every FCBM trainer and the fly/teleport target was a bit misleading. In some cases, even the fly/teleport location did not matter as I was walking past other vanishable objects before completing the glitch. edit: Finally figured out and made a demo of a viable method for walking through guards: pokemonyellow_missingno0x7f_works.vbm. However, it's very elaborate and restricted, with the following caveats: - It requires a poke ball and a poke doll, and can only be done on Pokemon Yellow. - Throughout the glitchy sequence, you cannot use fly, teleport, or even the bicycle. - To initiate the sequence, I have hand-waived the part of how to find a pokemon with a special of 121 or 127 in the local area. In theory, a double trainer-fly with Ditto in the middle might work. - Add up all the time lost due to the above problems, and it may be faster to play through Pokemon Tower.
Posted: 5/5/2007 8:42 PM
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Themattman
Joined: 10/11/2006
Posts: 35
Has there been a WIP posted recently? I can't find one :(
Posted: 5/7/2007 6:10 PM
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primorial_soup
Player (88)
Joined: 1/15/2006
Posts: 333
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
There hasn't been, mainly because as of late, as soon as someone has started, a new glitch has been found. As soon as this new inivisible item glitch has been thoroughly researched, I intend to be starting one. My current plan is to glitch a L100 Gengar in Mt. Moon, and then a Mew in Vermillion city (surf/fly slave) while performing the Snorlax skip. A few details are still sketchy though. My preferred route through Vermillion would be something like this: Defeat Gym Get Bike Voucher Defeat last Gambler on Route 11 (so that he doesn't interfere with the Snorlax skip glitch (I think this is necessary?)) Set up Snorlax skip (and return to Cerulean) Get Bike, and bike back down to Vermillion Defeat trainer on Route 6 with Butterfree Encounter a random pokémon on Route 6 with special of 21 (just about anything will do, with the right DV) Return to Route 11 to catch Mew and finish Snorlax Skip However, in doing this, I'm not sure if I'd be passing through a zone which has an 'invisible item', which would invalidate the Snorlax Skip. Honestly, Hanzou knows a lot more about this glitch than I do... he might even be able to say offhand if that would work. From there, I'm still hopeful that a method will be found to bypass the Poké Tower in Red/Blue, although this doesn't seem too likely.
print reduce(lambda x,p:p/2*x/p+2*10**1000,range(6643,1,-2))
Posted: 5/7/2007 8:22 PM
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Chamale
He/Him
Player (182)
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1355
Location: Canada
Well, with Primo working on the Red video, I might want to make a video with Yellow, for the skipping tricks... Or maybe I could work on the movie too, and see who makes a better one! Primo, I hope you haven't gotten too far, because I want to tell you something: Make sure you manipulate so Charmander has an attack DV of F. When it's F, a max-damage critical hit against the rival's Squirtle does 6 damage. So, the opening battle could be faster by having 2 max-damage criticals, and 2 max-damage non-criticals (I'm pretty sure these would do 4 each).
Posted: 5/7/2007 8:26 PM
(Edited: 5/7/2007 8:28 PM)
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Rridgway
Joined: 2/13/2007
Posts: 448
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Chamale wrote:
When it's F, a max-damage critical hit against the rival's Squirtle does 6 damage. So, the opening battle could be faster by having 2 max-damage criticals, and 2 max-damage non-criticals (I'm pretty sure these would do 4 each).
Um, no offense to your math skillz but 4x2 doesn't equal 6. 2 years advanced math and he gets that wrong?
Renting this space for rent. Trying to fix image on this site. Please cut slack. As of April 6th, 2012: After a long absence, here we go again?
Posted: 5/7/2007 8:26 PM
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Chamale
He/Him
Player (182)
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1355
Location: Canada
Strangely, in R/B critical hits don't actually do 2x the damage.
Posted: 5/7/2007 8:36 PM
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Mr._Pwnage
Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223
Critical hits only double the "level" component in the damage equation. So: Level 0 or 1 = critical hit doesn't increase damage at all Level 2 = critical hit causes roughly 150% damage (adjusted by a static +2 later on, so actual adjustment may be lower for this and all subsequent levels, and rounded down) Level 3 = 167% damage (5/3) ... Level 100 = 195% damage (82/42) And, since level is limited to a byte, Level 128 = 3.8% damage (2/53), which explains high-level Kingler from Cinnabar Coast having its Crabhammer survived easily
Posted: 5/7/2007 8:42 PM
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primorial_soup
Player (88)
Joined: 1/15/2006
Posts: 333
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
At higher levels, max critical hits are much closer to twice max non-criticals. However, at lower levels, due to rounding effects, max criticals are typically only 1-2 damage higher than a max non-criticals. Chamale, thanks for the observation. Squirtle starts with 20 HP; in the past it seemed that max non-critical was 4 damage, and max critical was 5. However, I noticed in my "catch 'em all" run, that I could actually get a max non-critical of 5 using Squirtle against Bulbasaur, mainly due to Bulbasaur's lower defense. I wouldn't be surprised if with a DV of F the same was true with Charmander against Squirtle, resulting in not needing any critical hits. I'll have to test this, but at very least with a max critical of 6, it would save two critical messages, which is a nice improvement, and also looks much better. Also, I didn't mean to step on your toes. I had gotten the impression from one of your posts that you had given up on this particular run. EDIT: It was this post.
print reduce(lambda x,p:p/2*x/p+2*10**1000,range(6643,1,-2))
Posted: 5/8/2007 4:42 PM
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Chamale
He/Him
Player (182)
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1355
Location: Canada
Well, see, this is the thing: If no one will work on it, I will. Because I really want someone to do it, as this was the first video game I ever owned. But if you'll work on it, go ahead. I'll TAS something that doesn't involve a lot of luck-manipulation.
Posted: 5/8/2007 9:07 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Hey primo, that route you proposed involves biking through Saffron City, right? If so, it won't work because the guard in front of Copycat's house will disappear instead of Snorlax. I think it's safe to assume we won't find find a way to skip Pokemon Tower, at least with the currently known glitches. More glitches will be found in the future, but who knows... maybe they'll be like the dokokashira door glitch, and skip the entire game anyway. Assuming we'll still have to get the Poke Flute, will glitching the Snorlax west of Celadon be expected to save any time?
Posted: 5/8/2007 11:16 PM
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Mr._Pwnage
Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223
You can't bike through Saffron at that point in the game, unless the guards' "I won't let you through until you give me a drink" speech doesn't take place as a side effect, and if that's the case then it doesn't matter if Snorlax disappears or not. Cerulean to Vermilion the first time requires use of the underground tunnel. If you're going to be Escape Roping out of Saffron Gym as FractalFusion did, such a point can't be different from the planned Teleport point you'd have to return to later, which means I don't think it can save time over the Poke Flute animation and short Snorlax battle.
Posted: 5/9/2007 2:41 PM
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primorial_soup
Player (88)
Joined: 1/15/2006
Posts: 333
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
hanzou wrote:
Hey primo, that route you proposed involves biking through Saffron City, right? If so, it won't work because the guard in front of Copycat's house will disappear instead of Snorlax.
Not biking through Saffron, but rather under it through the underground path. I think this should be ok?
hanzou wrote:
Assuming we'll still have to get the Poke Flute, will glitching the Snorlax west of Celadon be expected to save any time?
At first glance it doesn't seem like it would. The only way it would is if traveling to Fuschia before doing the Poké Tower might had some unexcepted benefits. However, this is definitely a good thing to keep in the inventory, for some time in the future when Poké Tower skip might become possible.
print reduce(lambda x,p:p/2*x/p+2*10**1000,range(6643,1,-2))
Posted: 5/9/2007 6:47 PM
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Chamale
He/Him
Player (182)
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1355
Location: Canada
Remind me again why we can't skip Pokemon tower? No, really. I don't see why we can't.
Posted: 5/9/2007 7:03 PM
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Mr._Pwnage
Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223
Because the guard in front of Silph Co. doesn't stop blocking the entrance until you get through Pokemon Tower, and the guard in front of the Saffron Gym doesn't go away until you get through Silph and wipe out Team Rocket.
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