feos: The discussion thread contains a lot of information on how this run is still improvable, but overall it seems to be better than the current publication. The 2 versions (SMS and GG) do indeed look mostly identical in terms of gameplay, so they can obsolete one another, though I would prefer the SMS one to be used (due to bigger screen) for a potential future improvement. Accepting over [2549] SMS Disney's Aladdin by Johnnypoiro in 09:46.77.
Obsoletes [2549] SMS Aladdin, Disney's by Johnnypoiro in 09:46.77
Nnnnnnno, it doesn't.
No?
The same game just a different console. You can compare the tricks and see the improvement. Literally runs on the same core. If it's a different category (the word escapes me at present), that's fine.
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Ports to different platforms are separate publications. I don't think we even have the ability to do cross-platform obsoletions on the site.
EDIT: Ignore this as well, it's case-by-case.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Ports to different platforms are separate publications. I don't think we even have the ability to do cross-platform obsoletions on the site.
We do.
EDIT: Also ports to different platforms are not separate publications if the ports are identical. This largely applies to modern systems, but I wouldn't be surprised if SMS/GG has some similar cases.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Ports to different platforms are separate publications. I don't think we even have the ability to do cross-platform obsoletions on the site.
Whatever you ladies want to do.
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Had this one kicking in the archives for a bit. Figured I would finish it up.
There's a rumor the Game Gear version runs a little faster but no explanation was given.
The speedrun.com records are about 10 seconds apart.
I'm guessing it's due to less sprites on the screen, but the boss fight is harder because you have to do some insane stuff compared to the SMS run where you basically can just jump the flames thanks to all the room.
Either way, I think it warrants the same category just as you'd reject something in the reverse order (if slower) I presume as per the rules. Same game etc. etc.
I did make sure the movement is indeed faster than the SMS version by design anyways, just to make sure I wasn't just relying on some sort of speedup. I'm not seeing it, and I'm wondering if it's more a phenomenon, or a result of bad emulation. Seems pretty close to me.
Nonetheless, the movement would trump the SMS version if played on SMS, so I guess the speed up is a moot point.
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If there's gameplay differences that usually indicates a separate publication would be viable.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
If there's gameplay differences that usually indicates a separate publication would be viable.
Yeah, I've seen some of that on Genesis vs. SNES where it's even quite different, where the newer run gets rejected because it's too similar and doesn't beat a record although technically a record isn't set on said console and the port is different, but still too similar.
This is literally the exact same game on a smaller screen. The HUD is obviously different but that's it. Like all the sprites are exact. It's a direct port.
I've seen some pretty different SNES vs. Genesis games rejected for that (obviously not counting a speedup, just a submission of equal or slower time) with different sprites as you can't exactly port between them, but this is just a tiny Sega Master System
I'm happy with whatever, a published TAS is a published TAS, but I don't think it would make sense
(i.e. if for some reason this was slower, I feel like it would be a quick rejection against the SMS TAS)
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If there's gameplay differences that usually indicates a separate publication would be viable.
Yeah, I've seen some of that on Genesis vs. SNES where it's even quite different, where the newer run gets rejected because it's too similar and doesn't beat a record although technically a record isn't set on said console and the port is different, but still too similar.
This is literally the exact same game on a smaller screen. The HUD is obviously different but that's it. Like all the sprites are exact. It's a direct port.
I've seen some pretty different SNES vs. Genesis games rejected for that (obviously not counting a speedup, just a submission of equal or slower time) with different sprites as you can't exactly port between them, but this is just a tiny Sega Master System
I'm happy with whatever, a published TAS is a published TAS, but I don't think it would make sense
We might revisit some of those cases in the future, it hasn't ever been consistent.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
If there's gameplay differences that usually indicates a separate publication would be viable.
Yeah, I've seen some of that on Genesis vs. SNES where it's even quite different, where the newer run gets rejected because it's too similar and doesn't beat a record although technically a record isn't set on said console and the port is different, but still too similar.
This is literally the exact same game on a smaller screen. The HUD is obviously different but that's it. Like all the sprites are exact. It's a direct port.
I've seen some pretty different SNES vs. Genesis games rejected for that (obviously not counting a speedup, just a submission of equal or slower time) with different sprites as you can't exactly port between them, but this is just a tiny Sega Master System
I'm happy with whatever, a published TAS is a published TAS, but I don't think it would make sense
We might revisit some of those cases in the future, it hasn't ever been consistent.
I literally have no objection either way (I'd probably just upload an SMS version)
Whatever works for you ladies and the rest of the team.
Although if there's a perfect case of a port, this is it.
I'm trying to think of a few runs that have been rejected against a "similar but different" version, most which seem to reside on the Genesis vs. SNES rivalry, there's a few, but I can't think of any. I think if there's a speedup it's a null point (and would replace the other version), I think most of those were slower and submitted as a "new game" and then rejected because the other version is just too similar nor did they beat it either.
I remember a Genesis game being rejected, because although it looked completely different (to an appropriate degree), it was still basically the same game and it wasn't faster.
Nonetheless, I digress, as it doesn't really apply here. I just feel like if this was slower than the SMS version it'd be the other way around, haha. I wish I could remember a good example argh
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Posts: 2793
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Prior judgements aren't treated as precedents anymore, because our rules have changed so much over the past couple years to allow more things to come through. Whatever game it was that was rejected for not being different enough at the time most likely has a shot at being accepted and published today.
In general, it's best not to assume that a decision is going to go one way or another ahead of time. I wouldn't even recommend Judges do it. Hell, my earlier posts in the thread prove that not even I should be doing it. There's a possibility it can go either way, but the only way to find out for sure is for everything to be examined during judgement.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Just thinking along the lines of "this would probably get rejected if it was slower than the SMS version, although it's a different console, so it probably should fall under the same tree of obsoleting it".
If for some reason this game ran at like 58 FPS or something, and it was technically WR, but still slightly slower, I don't see any case where it wouldn't be rejected against the SMS version.
(Tables turned scenario)
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Prior judgements aren't treated as precedents anymore, because our rules have changed so much over the past couple years to allow more things to come through. Whatever game it was that was rejected for not being different enough at the time most likely has a shot at being accepted and published today.
In general, it's best not to assume that a decision is going to go one way or another ahead of time. I wouldn't even recommend Judges do it. Hell, my earlier posts in the thread prove that not even I should be doing it. There's a possibility it can go either way, but the only way to find out for sure is for everything to be examined during judgement.
That makes sense.
There's a bit of a gray area with those, but this one potentially doesn't have any gray.
It is literally identical. Like it runs on the Master System core.
Not sure what the exact differences between the consoles are (if any), but it almost seems like they took the Master System version and edited a few variables to crop the screen and change the HUD. All enemies movement and perception are the same.
I'd say the only difference would potentially be the boss battle at the end (less room to move around), but that's a very light issue that any Game Gear port suffers from and actually ended up being tilted against my benefit.
Only other instances I can recall are ones that aren't so cut and dry and had major differences (yet still were judged as the same, albeit potentially would not be the case now).
I don't mind either way but I would definitely say this would be the defining game of "same". I could probably sync the run to Master System with minimal effort
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I'm guessing it's due to less sprites on the screen, but the boss fight is harder because you have to do some insane stuff compared to the SMS run where you basically can just jump the flames thanks to all the room.
Is the main reason I'm thinking it should be separate. The lag differences and framerate are fairly whatever.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
I'm guessing it's due to less sprites on the screen, but the boss fight is harder because you have to do some insane stuff compared to the SMS run where you basically can just jump the flames thanks to all the room.
Is the main reason I'm thinking it should be separate. The lag differences and framerate are fairly whatever.
That would make sense.
I'm not sure what way the scale would tip for a perfect run, between any speed the Game Gear provides from lag vs. the boss advantage on the Master System.
I ended up beating him in movement, but the boss is slower I'm pretty sure, because it has to be.
Thinking it that way, it would kind of be a bummer for this run to be copied move for move, and somebody obsoletes it because the boss is easier, whereas I obsoleted the original run (or... whatever you want to call it) based off of genuine improvement.
Definitely fine with it either way, I'd probably submit a Master System version too
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On the other hand, if somebody is trying to beat this record and uses Master System, it could be considered a disadvantage like using PAL or using a longer language in some game. Like a lot of Zelda speedrunners know using English is a death wish, and it's a unwritten rule to use Japanese. And obviously no PAL as a version.
There's a lot of great points for both cases, I'm indifferent.
I'm mostly sitting on the lines of this can obsolete the old movie because it's genuinely faster in terms of the identical sections, but if somebody comes along with another Master System run and it only relies on the boss advantage, then it's not really an improvement. But that's one option.
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I tried to go do some testing with the Sega Master System version and they only released it in Europe (50 fps) and Brazil (50 fps - it's the same ROM).
Game Gear came out in those countries as well as United States and Japan (which is used; at 60 fps no less).
Even the ROM with the identification given in the SMS publication runs at 50 FPS no matter where I source it from.
Likely because a US release doesn't exist.
Wikipedia and SegaRetro both list the same:
Game Gear
EU: February 1994
JP: March 25, 1994
NA: May 1994
Master System
EU: April 1994
Additionally, all the Speedrun.com entires list the SMS versions (every single run to exist LOL) as PAL: https://www.speedrun.com/disneys_aladdin?h=Beat_the_Game-Master_System&x=824ge0w2-5ly7zqgl.gq7z66r1
I was able to recreate the FPS push by changing the settings in BizHawk which obviously is illegitimate for a run.
The run is listed at the usual NTSC FPS, and I believe the movie will only sync at 60, so not sure how this wasn't caught. I'll look into it more but now I'm sure:
A) It sure seems like a lot more frames should be gained so that boss battle must be a lot slower on Game Gear but faster overall
B) The SMS publication might need a second look
C) Aladdin was only 60 fps on the Game Gear, 50 FPS on the Sega Master System
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Alrighty, so 35,161 frames at 50 FPS is 11:43 and 11 frames.
35,161 frames at 60 FPS is the publication time of the SMS run.
So definitely something odd going on there.
Unless I'm missing something the SMS run is illegitimately running at a faster FPS.
As a final stretch, I thought maybe this was just an error on the details and the publication video is fixed but it is not, it too is running at 60~ FPS.
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Okay, did some digging. Apparently some guy submitted a Tom & Jerry run in 60 fps because it was released in Brazil but he couldn't find the ROM and assumed that it allowed him to speed up the game. Which he did. And it was published.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
I saw that http://tasvideos.org/5339S.html uses NTSC (60 fps) because the game is released also in Brazil.
While there is http://tasvideos.org/4208S.html using PAL (50 fps) and also identified as an (E) ROM while it's actually also USA in the submission (while I only found an EBK, Europe Brazil Korea).
Now the "maybe bug but have no idea":
- using NTSC region (for 60 fps) for Aladdin, many frames' input denied but pause (something like 30% randomly)
- I probably experienced the same only once in thousands of frames using PAL for Aladdin (and maybe it was a random bug)
This is likely what ended up improperly happening with Aladdin as the Brazil release (he didn't use the right ROM anyways so no way to even tell) DID NOT use 60 fps:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
I can somewhat confirm that Aladdin is Export only. This is how I try now to check regions for other SMS games:
- Region settings should reflect what the ROM has in it's headers ($4 SMS Export in this case for all ROMs I've found)
- Using event.oninputpoll (which I guess implemented differently for each core), the 5 polls must be avoided, as this should only appear when you used wrong settings
So even though many sites says Aladdin was released to other regions and ROM names has their flags, it seems to be inaccurate.
So the SMS run is likely sped up improperly and also has other bugs that shouldn't be happening (although they sound more bad than good).
Seems to be a common problem:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
So unless there was an SMS release in Brazil that ran 50fps ROMs at 60 fps, a lot of submissions need to be looked at!
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Brazilian SMS is supposed to be PAL-M, 60hz, however some people commented on having 50hz... This will be a task for someone to track down. This might be an inaccurate fact!
- There are PAL games that has glitches when playing in a NTSC system
There seems to be a lot of published and submitted runs that have relied on this "Brazil" assumption and I haven't seen any evidence it ran at 60fps
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Alright so here's the final scoop that has nothing to do with this publication but moreso the former:
Alright so the Brazilian Master System made by Tec Toy (made by a third party and technically not even a Sega console - good example is that they still make them TODAY making the Master System the best selling console in the world)...
runs PAL-M...
which is 60~ fps with a PAL color palette.
PAL-M isn't really officially supported in these emulators and it isn't exactly NTSC either and in theory should run just a hair slower all things considered even without this PAL debate let alone much faster.
However the game library it relies on are primarily European releases. Which are designed to run at 50 fps.
So here we see an interesting loophole where there has been several submissions sped up due to the Brazil thing. Aladdin is branded "Europe" only and creates issues in-game as MESHUGGAH described when ran at 60 fps which inclines me to think the Brazilian Master System ran it at 50 fps or it was never released there to begin with.
Some of the ROMs are branded "(Europe, Brazil)", and some just "(Europe)".
Only info I can find are of the more modern Tec Toys. Apparently they started releasing them back in '89, so if true, I would suppose any pre-'89 made games should definitely not be using this loophole. But even still, all the information is very scarce.
There is no documentation available that confirms they ran it at 60 FPS, just the assumption that they did.
Worst case, they ran at 50 FPS.
Best case, they're overclocking 50 FPS ROMs to 60 FPS that were never designed for it.
Definitely something to look into, because if it comes back that I'm right, it adds 2 minutes to the other submission anyways.
Not that it really matters because this beats it as-is, but I did think it was worthy to bring up as another reason for the "split categories" debate involving Samsara, Memory, and myself.
There's actually quite a few movies this would probably end up applying to. Very interesting.
Cheers!
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Looks like it's in the new rules (and old rules more descriptively) that the practice of running PAL-M games on NTSC is allowed. (Not sure if that is true if you cannot find the proper ROM for Brazil which was not used here)
Nonetheless, I was just mentioning it as a point of discussion solely, as this submission is faster anyways.
I do wonder if the PAL-M scenario here created any loopholes of gain with Brazil SMS vs. NTSC Game Gear, i.e. if they adjusted the ROM at all to run better at 50 fps (higher walk speeds, etc.), it could be illegitimately faster on the PAL-M port.
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You can compare the tricks and see the improvement.
OtakuTAS wrote:
I obsoleted the original run (or... whatever you want to call it) based off of genuine improvement.
It helps a lot when improvements are mentioned in the submission text, because not everyone can watch the 2 movies side by side with enough precision to see all the differences, while also magically knowing which of those differences are not version differences but better optimization.
Which of the tricks used here to improve gameplay of the SMS version are also applicable to the SMS version?
OtakuTAS wrote:
Even the ROM with the identification given in the SMS publication runs at 50 FPS no matter where I source it from.
It doesn't run at 50fps until Bizhawk 1.13.2, even if you set it to PAL or Auto, both of which result in 50fps in later versions. And in 1.5.1 where the SMS movie was made, you didn't even have a way to set the display mode, so all games seemed to just run at 60fps.
Movie Rules wrote:
Gameplay must be accurate to hardware
Running 50Hz PAL games in 60Hz NTSC mode (and vice versa) is also not allowed, save for a couple exceptions:
Sega Master System games with an official release in Brazil can use NTSC mode, due to Brazil's PAL-M being functionally identical to NTSC.
I do wonder if the PAL-M scenario here created any loopholes of gain with Brazil SMS vs. NTSC Game Gear, i.e. if they adjusted the ROM at all to run better at 50 fps (higher walk speeds, etc.), it could be illegitimately faster on the PAL-M port.
The same exact game image was released in Europe, Australia, Brazil, and Korea. I don't know what's illegitimate in it being used in Brazilian 60fps consoles.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I'll have to stick them side by side and see, besides a slide across a platform in the cave level which saves quite a bit of time without stopping movement at all instead of waiting for a bat to fly past. Surprised he didn't catch that.
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Full comparison (Ex. screen on GG has a Sega logo so cropped that out for fair comparison, GG takes a LOSS there(!!!!!))
Link to video
examples of time saves (few, not all). you can see the game is the exact same
Link to videoLink to videoLink to video
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