Posted: 6/11/2005 1:27 AM
Post subject: Is it only possible to manipulate luck in TAS
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gbagcn
Joined: 5/30/2005
Posts: 98
The only time I have heard of luck manipulation being used besides in TAS was in Golden Sun to get a certain item. Are there any other games that you can manipulate luck in without using tools.
Posted: 6/11/2005 1:29 AM
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AnotherGamer
Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
I think the whole need to use an Echo Screen before using Slots to Joker Doom all the enemies qualifies more or less.
Posted: 6/11/2005 1:33 AM
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DeHackEd
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Former player
Joined: 11/6/2004
Posts: 833
I guess that depends on your definition of luck. I define it as a favourable outcome from something random. I also assume that a human has no way whatsoever to know the result of a random decision. So luck manipulation means controlling something random. Assuming the above, it is completely impossible to manipulate in a console... ...but, in a console speedrun, playing the game a few times in the hope of getting a good outcome in one of those trials is probably quite common. Abusing dumb or predictable AI is also done, but I wouldn't call that controlling randomness. So in short, I don't think it's feasible in most games, unless the randomness algorithm is exceedingly poor.
Posted: 6/11/2005 1:33 AM
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Bob_Whoops
Former player
Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA
Yeah, GS has an exploitable RNG. I don't know of any other games that do, but I'm sure there's some. Basically, just any game that starts with the same inital seed when you turn it on, and randomness that doesn't depend on timing.
Posted: 6/11/2005 2:30 AM
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nifboy
Former player
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375
"Segmented" runs (and basically any game that has both random elements and saving) manipulate luck to a certain extent, although that's usually not the solitary reason to do so. One fairly typical example is saving near a betting house in GTA:SA and betting all your money on the worst horse, loading until you've increased your wealth by an order of magnitude then repeating the process (although the game usually stops letting you win by the second or third iteration).
Posted: 6/11/2005 7:22 PM
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quietkane
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Golden Sun and Final Fantasy Tactics Advance both have exploitable RNG's, though Golden Sun's is much more easily abused without tools. Apparently people also try to manipulate luck on Lufia 2 with a console in order to beat the game at insanely low levels. For example, one low-level faq instructs players to reset and try the second Idura battle over if you can't make him fall asleep in the first round. I'd say that qualifies. And I've also heard of people resetting if they don't get good level-gains in some games, so it's not that luck manipulation is soley property of the TAS. It's just much more easily done and on a much larger scale.
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Posted: 6/11/2005 8:52 PM
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Dada
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Well, technically, you can manipulate luck in games, but only if the algorithms are loose enough for them to be "beaten" by human players (i.e. without save states and/or slowdowns). An example could be a technique having a better effect if you wait anywhere from 1 to 2 seconds before using it after highlighting it in the technique menu. In practice, however, programmers never make their luck manipulators like that. An example of something that's NOT luck manipulation is the The Legend of Zelda speedrun--to get the highest tier, you have to win 50 rupees from the gambling cave. If you fail to do this, your run is over. The only way to pull it off is playing over and over again until you just happen to get it right. The reason why this isn't luck manipulation is because you're allowing the game to decide the outcome of the pseudo-random event, rather than taking control of it yourself. The only difference is that you stop recording your speedrun if the outcome is undesirable.
Posted: 6/12/2005 6:05 AM
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Spriteless
Joined: 8/7/2004
Posts: 51
In the first generation of pokemon games, jamming the A button caused your moves to deal more attack, and your Pokeballs to succeed more often. It was reversed in Gold and Silver, so I'd jam it when my enemy attacked. I miss that, now I have to level up more.
mew.
Posted: 6/12/2005 7:55 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Really? That works? I always thought that "hold such-and-such buttons" stuff was just superstition.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 6/13/2005 12:06 AM
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Spriteless
Joined: 8/7/2004
Posts: 51
It at least works in the american versions of red and blue. Also, the way high level monsters disobey you is somewhat predictible, depending on what move you choose. And what monster you encounter is on a timer, so if you want to catch a rare one, wait a minute after entering an area before you take a step. And if you miss with a move, and use it again, you will most likely miss again due to the results not being deleted from memory. Those games have horrible programming.
mew.
Posted: 6/13/2005 2:40 AM
Post subject: Crazy Pokemon facts
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Hmm... Maybe you should post whatever else you know in this topic.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 8/11/2005 11:01 AM
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AnotherGamer
Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
Both US GBA Fire Emblem games also have an easily manipulated RNG: in some regards it's even easier to manipulate it than it is with GS, as there's generally less things to consider.