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Little Lancelot is an NTSC port, made in 2019, of the original NES game The Legend of Prince Valiant, apart from the difference in framerate, which makes this game run faster, there's no other differences with the original, which is why I decided to TAS this version instead.

Game Objectives

  • Emulator used: BizHawk 2.9.1
  • Aims for fastest time
  • Takes intentional damage
  • Takes intentional deaths

Tech

Avoid jumping

Each jump costs 2 frames due to the animation of jumping stopping movement for 2 frames, so its important to avoid jumping when possible.

The score screen

Between levels, a score screen counts the resources you ended the level with, like health, tokens, lives, etc.
Because of this, its important to end the levels with as little resources as possible.
A death is taken on Level 3 for this reason specifically, since the death itself loses some time in the level, but without that live you gain back the time in each consequent score screen. That's the only death that is taken for that reason tho, couldn't find any other. There is one that could work at the end of level one, where if you die after the second bat boss, the scroll continues while dying and puts you slightly ahead in the level, but since dying refills your health, that loses enough time in the score screen to make it counterproductive.

RNG manipulation

In this game, RNG is dictated by a few variables that change value every frame, the value at which is changes tho can be manipulated by player input, so it can be changed easily by adding some Selects at certain frames to get what you need. Not everything can be manipulated this way tho, some things, like barrels, have set cycles that are not RNG dependant.

Jump off ladders

On Level 5, there's some spots where I jump off ladders in a weird way that looks suboptimal, this is because you can't jump off ladders if you are too high up the ladder and there's a platform, but if you jump too low you don't reach the platform you are jumping to.
It turns out there's a pixel, where its just right and if you grab the ladder and jump off of it at that sliver, you make it.
There is one ladder in Level 5 that this is not done, which is because that platform has more collision, so the sliver doesn't exist there.

High jump on ropes

You can grab higher than you'd think on ropes, you do slide back down quickly if you grab high, but if you jump off you do a normal jump, but higher up, which can be beneficial. Jumps in this game are short so most of the time its not that useful, in Level 3, for example, there's many situations where it could be useful, but the ceiling is way too low.

Levels Overview

Marsh

A simple level, for the first two screens there's some obstacles tied to cycles, so I kill some enemies to preserve health and avoid jumping in other sections.
The bat minibosses are manipulated to be defeated as early as possible, turning around takes time, so the first bat is manipulated to have a pattern that doesn't need you to turn around, in the second bat tho, since you need to make the stone platform cycle mid fight, defeating the bat without turning around is not possible.
Then, the boss of the level, some kind of dragon thing. It's manipulated to stay close to the ground, since its not possible to shoot projectiles while jumping.

Forest

This level is one of two shooter levels, in this one, the game scrolls by using the Dist resource, which you get by shooting enemies, or bonuses, and there's also certain enemies that will stop the scroll until you kill them. Enemies also have some RNG as to when exactly they decide to get out of cover, so its manipulated so the enemies that stop the scroll appear as early as possible.
Also, you can only shoot after the reload animation of the previous shot is done, so it's importnat to make the first shot as early as possible and make sure you move the cursor over to the next target to shoot it at the first frame possible.

Viking

This level is much more maze like than the last, and introduces one hit traps.
In the bear fight, it could be possible to make the bear stay on the center by making it do the dodge animation, in which you can hit it with the B attack, tho it does less damage than the A attack. This is not worth tho, since when the bear dies, it moves to the left and falls off, so it's better to kill the bear as left as possible. This fight and the viking fight are done to open locked doors, btw.
In the viking fight, it doesn't have that problem the bear had, so if it were possible to make him stay in the center it could be better, but that's not possible, where he moves is not set by RNG, but by where he is and where you are, you can only manipulate the delays it makes and what attacks he does.

Ship Battle

Second shooter level, in this one you are in a ship and can shoot out of multiple cannons, you can move between cannons by pressing L/R + B, tho there's a delay after shooting a cannon where you can't move between cannons. In this level, when a ship is shot, a new ship spawns on one of the edges of the screen, which ship and where exactly depends on RNG, so its manipulated so a ship that can be destroyed by only one shot and where it can be shot as early as possible appears every time.
It's also important to get all our cannons destroyed too, so some delays are necessary, since cannonballs deload when they go offscreen.
This level is also the reason the rerecord count is so high.

Camelot

In this level, a new tye of enemy is introduced, those which, if you bump into them, they hit you and push you back, there two kinds of these, the knights with lances, which can be jumped over, and soldiers that shoot projectiles, these can't be jumped over, so killing them is necessary
There is an instance, where there's so many stuff loaded in, that one of these enemies that can't be jumped over loads late, enough for us to walk past him
This level also features two intentional deaths, this are done just to warp back to the entrance of the room, tho less lives also save some time in the score screen, which is nice.

nymx: Claiming for judging.


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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #9133: Induviel's NES Little Lancelot in 16:15.21
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Movie rules wrote:
Bootleg games must not be direct clones of a licensed game on the same console. Unlicensed ports with unique gameplay, such as demakes, are allowed.
Does this apply?
Induviel
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Randomno wrote:
Movie rules wrote:
Bootleg games must not be direct clones of a licensed game on the same console. Unlicensed ports with unique gameplay, such as demakes, are allowed.
Does this apply?
Ooh, I didn't know about that one, would this be considered a bootleg? It is pretty much the same as the original nes game, appart from being NTSC, and having slightly better graphics. Does that mean I'd have to redo it on the original game? It would be pretty much the same, just slower.
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Randomno wrote:
Movie rules wrote:
Bootleg games must not be direct clones of a licensed game on the same console. Unlicensed ports with unique gameplay, such as demakes, are allowed.
Does this apply?
I don’t think bootleg rules apply. The game is purchasable from Piko Interactive https://www.pikointeractive.com/home/Little-Lancelot-BACKORDER-p132666224 It appears to be a valid release of the game for NTSC systems. The title change appears to be due to licensing issues; probably due to Prince Valiant comics holding a trademark in the US.
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Does the game fall in any of the existing categories? I'd prefer the rule apply to any unlicensed clones.
DrD2k9
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Randomno wrote:
Does the game fall in any of the existing categories? I'd prefer the rule apply to any unlicensed clones.
I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking here, but we don’t have any current publications of Prince Valiant. I think that this game would likely be considered in the same game group as Prince Valiant, just with a different title due to regional licensing issues. I also don’t think we should consider this game an “unlicensed clone.” For all appearances, it seems to be a legit release of the game.
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I meant to link to the unofficial games section. I'm asking if this game falls into any of those types. This is still an unlicensed game as far as the console manufacturer is concerned. And it's exactly the same as a licensed game save for the title.
DrD2k9
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If any, it would be:
  • Unlicensed game - A commercial game by an established developer for a proprietary system, that failed to meet console manufacturer's policies and get an official "seal of approval".
But even then, the original was officially licensed by Nintendo. So if anything, this game being effectively a regional release of the original; maybe pseudo-licensed? Regardless, I think we can probably treat it the same as a licensed game for judging purposes; though we may catalog it as unlicensed. I’m not sure how we’d handle submissions from both regions. I’ll leave those decisions up to publishers/senior staff.
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The following is my personal opinion.
I don't feel this game should be classified as a bootleg. It was reportedly developed by the same developer (Ocean) as evidenced by the splash screen in-game and MobyGames. Little Lancelot was published by a different company, but that company has a history of purchasing intellectual properties and producing re-releases of games. My understanding of a "bootleg", is a game (or other media) that are distributed without permission of the owner (which does align with the site's definition), sometimes after having been slightly modified. Given that it appears to be published and distributed legally by the now owners of the game, it isn't a bootleg.
Since the game does have some small changes, it's arguable that Nintendo's license no longer applies, but Nintendo hasn't licensed the numerous homebrew games that we've accepted TASes for. Plus, to my knowledge there are no site rules against accepting games that were not licensed by the manufacturer of the console/system. So that aspect shouldn't matter.
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Regarding Game Group: I just learned that Kingdom Crusade for Gameboy should probably be considered as part of the same game group as it was released also a “Legend of Prince Valiant” outside of North America. Reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Prince_Valiant
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Bigbass wrote:
Since the game does have some small changes, it's arguable that Nintendo's license no longer applies, but Nintendo hasn't licensed the numerous homebrew games that we've accepted TASes for. Plus, to my knowledge there are no site rules against accepting games that were not licensed by the manufacturer of the console/system. So that aspect shouldn't matter.
Correct.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Bigbass wrote:
Since the game does have some small changes, it's arguable that Nintendo's license no longer applies, but Nintendo hasn't licensed the numerous homebrew games that we've accepted TASes for. Plus, to my knowledge there are no site rules against accepting games that were not licensed by the manufacturer of the console/system. So that aspect shouldn't matter.
Of course we accept homebrews and unlicensed games in general, that was never in question. And based on all the evidence, it would seem wrong to call this a bootleg (I hate that term anyway). As I said before I would prefer this rule apply to any unofficial or unlicensed game if anything.
Not the movie rules wrote:
Unlicensed games must not be direct clones of a licensed game on the same console. Unlicensed ports with unique gameplay, such as demakes, are allowed.
But it doesn't.
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Randomno wrote:
(I hate that term anyway).
Why?
Randomno wrote:
As I said before I would prefer this rule apply to any unofficial or unlicensed game if anything.
Why?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Re bootleg: More of a personal thing. I've read it in the movie rules before and felt like it doesn't really clarify anything. Unlike every other type in the unofficial games list (e.g. homebrew, ROM hack), it doesn't have a dedicated Wikipedia article. But I looked more into it and can't see any obvious term that would be more widely understood. The BootlegGames Wiki explains the nuances quite well. Re the rules: As I understand, we give preference to official games and official versions. This isn't explicitly stated in the current movie rules from what I saw, but seems to be implied just by the fact they have their own mention and condition:
We allow unofficial games, such as bootlegs, prototypes and ROM hacks. However, these games are judged a bit stricter than their official counterparts
In the legacy rules this was more explicit (the sentence is about bootlegs but the clause isn't necessarily).
Legacy Rules wrote:
Bootlegs are not accepted if they are direct clones of licensed games on the same platform: we prefer official versions.
Whether or not the game was authorized by the copyright holder shouldn't have any bearing: they're all under the umbrella of "unofficial game". I don't why see bootlegs are any different to other unofficial games.
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Randomno wrote:
Re bootleg: More of a personal thing. I've read it in the movie rules before and felt like it doesn't really clarify anything. Unlike every other type in the unofficial games list (e.g. homebrew, ROM hack), it doesn't have a dedicated Wikipedia article. But I looked more into it and can't see any obvious term that would be more widely understood. The BootlegGames Wiki explains the nuances quite well.
Bootleg was a term commonly used for games, and the article describing what it means originally (audio/video recordings), can be used to explain both: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleg_recording Extra source is these hardcore preservationists: https://wiki.mamedev.org/index.php/FAQ:General_Games#What_is_a_bootleg_version? https://www.reddit.com/r/MAME/comments/10uublg/comment/j7f031j/ Our definition specifies that it has to exist in a hardware form, so it's different from a fangame.
Randomno wrote:
Re the rules: As I understand, we give preference to official games and official versions. This isn't explicitly stated in the current movie rules from what I saw, but seems to be implied just by the fact they have their own mention and condition:
We allow unofficial games, such as bootlegs, prototypes and ROM hacks. However, these games are judged a bit stricter than their official counterparts
In the legacy rules this was more explicit (the sentence is about bootlegs but the clause isn't necessarily).
Legacy Rules wrote:
Bootlegs are not accepted if they are direct clones of licensed games on the same platform: we prefer official versions.
The only actual limitations are the two right below what you quoted from the current rules Preference of official games over bootleg clones of those official games doesn't need to be explicitly mentioned, because it's the exact meaning of the first bullet point. We don't want rules to be too wordy. And it doesn't mean preference of official releases matters for any other unlicensed games, because the rest are not clones of similar official ones on the same platform. Even unofficial ports to other platforms are fine.
Randomno wrote:
Whether or not the game was authorized by the copyright holder shouldn't have any bearing: they're all under the umbrella of "unofficial game". I don't why see bootlegs are any different to other unofficial games.
For the first decade and a half, all unofficial games were judged differently, and the legacy policies were a giant PITA for both both TASers and judges, because they were unclear in their wording and, more importantly, in their purpose.
Legacy Rules wrote:
Non-official games are allowed for submission. However, they go through more scrutiny than other games. This is because the game itself also becomes subject to judgment, so it must meet a minimum standard of quality or notability to be eligible for publication. We look for games that can be played and completed, have some recognition or popularity, or are notable in some other ways as decided by the judge and the audience.
  • If a game is infamous and notable for being too buggy to even be completable, we may allow a patched version that fixes some of the bugs and makes it completable.
How the hell do we decide what "notable" is supposed to mean, and more importantly how do we measure it? It says it should be decided by the judge and the audience, but how the hell are they meant to decide it in the first place? Just based on subjective abstract feelings? And what's so problematic in allowing all unofficial games of decent quality? So we allowed them all, with minimal clauses that made minimal necessary sense: don't TAS bootleg clones if there's an official version. That it! It's impossible to judge all unlicensed games with the same clause, because not all unlicensed games are clones of similar official releases on the same system. There's nothing to prefer to them!
Randomno wrote:
In the legacy rules this was more explicit (the sentence is about bootlegs but the clause isn't necessarily).
Legacy Rules wrote:
Bootlegs are not accepted if they are direct clones of licensed games on the same platform: we prefer official versions.
Hold on, what is this supposed to mean? Legacy rules had sections dedicated to different types of unofficial games, and the rules for bootlegs specifically preferred official variants, and the only common part was mentioned at the very top. But you take that one bit that's a part of legacy bootleg rules and imply that it's meant to work for all unofficial games, by the legacy rules?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

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