Topic by Ferret_Warlord

Posted: 8/9/2005 7:05 PM

Post subject: Tool Assisted Supaplex

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Ferret_Warlord

Skilled player (1416)

Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape

So, old DOS game, won't work properly on new OSs, and DOSbox doesn't do movies. How can we powerplay this game? Well, there is a way: it's called Megaplex. It's main function is a level editor, but it includes recording and slowdown functions. With the proper files, we can quark the original levels! And it works with modern day Windows! :P I'm not too sure about the legal status of the original game, so I'm going to let you guys find the files yourselves. Sorry. :( It's not that hard to find them, though. Also, Megaplex doesn't use save states, but playing at 20 FPS seems to be enough for proper reflexes. It's mainly a lot of planning. And patience... I have the first level done, and will post some of my plays once I have a few more done. Feel free to post the levels you've done. Edit: It would seem that it is indeed freeware at this point, so I'll take my chances and provide a link. Once downloaded, open LEVELS.DAT in Megaplex to play the original levels. As of this edit, I have three levels done. Ferret's Supaplex Levels (updated as I finish more) Now for a score board... Level --------- Name ------------ Time (frames) 1. WARM UP ---- Ferret Warlord -- 1005 3. STONE-AGE -- Ferret Warlord -- 5566 5. EASY DEAL -- Ferret Warlord -- 3718 To watch a movie, open the .mpx files. Edit Dos: Cut 18 frames off of Easy Deal; file and chart updated. I am hoping this DOESN'T become a one man show...

A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.

Posted: 4/9/2013 6:25 PM

Post subject: Supaplex

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4124)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands

Something I randomly decided to try last night - make a TAS of a few levels of Supaplex. Here's a WIP that contains the first three levels: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/5790688279797228 (Sorry, no encode - I haven't managed yet to successfully dump/convert video from JPC-rr) For this, I used Supaplex SpeedFix 6.3 (free for download here). The image I used can be downloaded here. I do set the speed to its highest setting as soon as possible (which is pretty much the same as how the game would run without the speed fix). The level times for the first three stages are, according to the in-game timer: 001 - 00:14 002 - 00:47 003 - 01:16 001 and 002 should be tied with the fastest speed records (although 001 loses a slight bit of time, because the speed setting doesn't apply immediately). 003 saves roughly a couple seconds over the fastest real-time record.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 4/9/2013 8:15 PM

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turska

Experienced player (764)

Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146

Encode (10bit444) Sound isn't working in Mothrayas's movie, so there's no audio.

Posted: 4/9/2013 10:24 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Oh gods, this game. I played a Flash version of it and quit in disgust after the third level exhorted me to "THINK", despite that none of the levels thus far had required anything more than mindless tedium. In short, the encode's pretty boring. There'd better be far more interesting levels ahead for this to be worthwhile, IMO.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 4/9/2013 11:04 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4124)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands

Derakon wrote:

Oh gods, this game. I played a Flash version of it and quit in disgust after the third level exhorted me to "THINK", despite that none of the levels thus far had required anything more than mindless tedium. In short, the encode's pretty boring. There'd better be far more interesting levels ahead for this to be worthwhile, IMO.

Assuming we're talking about the same levels here, by the third level the challenge hasn't even started yet. Though, the fourth level already marks a massive leap in difficulty, and it just gets worse from there. But yeah, the first few stages are pretty bad (especially the tedious maze that is level 2 and the ridiculously long ball-dropping sequence in level 3). Fortunately, it should tone down on things like that after this.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 4/10/2013 12:46 AM

Post subject: Re: Supaplex

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Radiant

Player (26)

Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam

Oooh, I totally want to see this! ...you do know there's 111 levels, yes? This will keep you busy for awhile. But Supaplex is one of the best games in its genre!

Indie game developer

Posted: 4/10/2013 12:58 AM

Post subject: Re: Supaplex

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4124)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands

Radiant wrote:

...you do know there's 111 levels, yes? This will keep you busy for awhile.

Yes, I'm aware. I think a full run would probably take about two hours or so. And it's probably not something I'd want to tackle alone if I wanted to see it done any time in the foreseeable future. On the other hand, the game is actually pretty simple to TAS. Most of the TASing time is actually spent looking for strategies, planning routes and minimizing steps for each section.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 4/10/2013 4:47 AM

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abyrvalg

Joined: 6/9/2011
Posts: 29

This game is amazing, i used to speedrun it many years ago, so definitely looking forward to seeing a complete run. Looks solid so far, but let's see what you'll come up with in Collector ;)

Posted: 4/10/2013 10:36 AM

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Odongdong

Player (213)

Joined: 9/14/2011
Posts: 349

In case you don't know about this, the site is providing solutions and useful tricks. Well, this was on my list for future TAS plan but dang, I was too late. Gotta look for other games.

Posted: 4/10/2013 1:51 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4124)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands

abyrvalg wrote:

Looks solid so far, but let's see what you'll come up with in Collector ;)

I haven't fully worked out a route for it yet, although I have tested a bunch of strategies. This is definitely a hard one to work out a route for.

Odongdong wrote:

In case you don't know about this, the site is providing solutions and useful tricks.

Aware of it. In fact, I took a few strategies from the top records there.

Odongdong wrote:

Well, this was on my list for future TAS plan but dang, I was too late. Gotta look for other games.

You could maybe still help out :) This is a long game, and working out the most optimal routes is quite tricky at times. Not something I'd like to do all by myself.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 4/11/2013 4:40 AM
(Edited: 8/5/2013 8:10 PM)

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Mr._Pwnage

Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223

I've attempted some TASes on standalone Supaplex levels, but using the Rocks'n'Diamonds simulator. I can't guarantee how accurate it is, or if the routes I develop there take advantage of mechanics that won't be replicable in your project, but improved SP engine compatibility was a stated design goal of the 3.3 release. TASing makes as good a stress test as anything for getting the frame-by-frame behaviors down. One thing I can guarantee isn't accurate between the two is the timer speed. Level 2 makes a remarkably good benchmark, because it's a simple maze with a 407-step solution, and a TAS of that is going to be inflexible and obvious. Your finish time is enough to conclude that Supaplex runs at 70fps (with a move taking 8 frames), while RnD is stuck at 50, so all the times I set get tagged with a 40% penalty. That said, on level 3 I found a route that completes in 1:44.74 of RnD time, which translates to 1:14.81 in SP assuming that everything else is accurate. You might be able to save some more time there after all. Other targets to shoot for when you get to these levels: (* = recent additions/improvements) 5. Easy Deal - 1:13.20 = 0:52.29 (adjusted) 6. Down They Fall - 1:23.68 = 0:59.77 7. Go Through - 1:23.70 = 0:59.79 10. Easy Come, Easy Go - 1:19.34 = 0:56.67 11. Run for Life - 0:34.50 = 0:24.64 12. Ignore Them - 1:04.48 = 0:46.06 13. Anonymous - 1:56.92 = 1:23.51 14. Fall Out - 0:59.76 = 0:42.69 19. Crazy Harry - 1:56.36 = 1:23.11 20. Minotaurus - 1:18.48 = 0:56.06 21. Gravity - 0:41.88 = 0:29.91 22. Up and Down - 0:51.66 = 0:36.90 24. 200 Moving Objects - 1:50.04 = 1:18.60 *25. Yawn - 1:36.68 = 1:09.06 29. TNT - 1:07.86 = 0:48.47 31. Time to Open - 0:58.02 = 0:41.44 34. Easy Rider - 1:18.96 = 0:56.40 37. Nearly Boring - 1:44.00 = 1:14.29 38. Bombastic - 1:02.10 = 0:44.36 *40. Mind the Stones - 0:48.50 = 0:34.64 44. Telepathy - 0:40.14 = 0:28.67 45. Easy Work - 1:36.34 = 1:08.81 47. Looks Difficult - 0:55.32 = 0:39.51 48. Ready-Steady-Go - 1:51.02 = 1:19.30 49. Fall-Festival - 2:44.66 = 1:57.61 50. Don't Worry - 1:12.88 = 0:52.06 53. Fill In - 1:40.22 = 1:11.59 55. The Eldritch - 1:29.24 = 1:03.74 59. Vice - 1:33.08 = 1:06.49 60. Versa - 1:34.80 = 1:07.71 68. Tough Going - 2:29.56 = 1:46.83 71. Head-Hunter - 1:22.98 = 0:59.27 73. One Way - 1:47.94 = 1:17.10 84. All That Fuss - 0:39.42 = 0:28.16 88. Flip and Flop - 1:28.54 = 1:03.24 89. Triple Fork - 2:53.90 = 2:04.21 90. Know That - 0:38.58 = 0:27.56 93. Timing - 0:32.28 = 0:23.06 94. Einstein's Favorite - 0:38.36 = 0:27.40 98. Mixed Salad - 1:21.32 = 0:58.09 99. Joystick Handling - 0:44.46 = 0:31.76 100. IQ - 3:33.68 = 2:32.63 102. Sub-Effects - 1:43.94 = 1:14.24 *105. One's Missing - 3:48.60 = 2:43.29 109. Upstairs-Downstairs - 0:52.88 = 0:37.77 *111. Brainman - 2:38.12 = 1:52.94 To see what those routes look like so you can try inputting them in the emulator, you can look in my tapes folder, though you'll need RnD before you can actually play back the input files.

Posted: 4/14/2013 5:23 PM

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Ilari

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1113)

Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217

Mr. Pwnage wrote:

Your finish time is enough to conclude that Supaplex runs at 70fps (with a move taking 8 frames), while RnD is stuck at 50, so all the times I set get tagged with a 40% penalty.

Quite close. 125875/1796 fps [70.08(63028953229398663697104677060133) fps] to be exact.

Posted: 5/27/2013 8:15 PM

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Mr._Pwnage

Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223

I found this account: http://www.youtube.com/user/38Marvin38/videos It shows that the tricks I've been using are in fact compatible with the stock SP game, and in most cases the routes are very similar to what's in my tapes collection (only a few levels like Vice, Looks Difficult, and Know That which have significantly suboptimal videos). There are also several levels there that I haven't gotten around to yet. Unfortunately, YouTube commenting appears broken right now, so I can't direct the author of the videos here to see if they've noted the routes for some of the missing levels, or if they have plans to make it a full-game run.

Posted: 5/29/2013 9:14 PM

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Svimmer

Joined: 9/27/2011
Posts: 207
Location: Finland

Is there a chance that the simulator doesn't take into account all the weirdness that the Supaplex engine can produce? Did you check out this site? http://www.elmerproductions.com/sp/tricks.html I'll be very very interested in this run if someone's doing it even if not able to comment on the solutions or anything.

Posted: 5/29/2013 9:25 PM

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Mr._Pwnage

Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223

It's definitely bug-compatible with the important ones for a speedrun. In particular, the most outlandish bug listed is the ability for a chain-explosion to produce extra trons, and it certainly replicates that faithfully to allow me to save a bunch of time in levels 90, 94, and 98 (probably some more like 82 as well, but I haven't taken a detailed look at that level yet). Go figure that if it handles that case correctly, emulating the other bugs is a relative cakewalk.

Posted: 5/29/2013 9:30 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4124)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands

Mr. Pwnage wrote:

It's definitely bug-compatible with the important ones for a speedrun. In particular, the most outlandish bug listed is the ability for a chain-explosion to produce extra trons, and it certainly replicates that faithfully to allow me to save a bunch of time in levels 90, 94, and 98 (probably some more like 82 as well, but I haven't taken a detailed look at that level yet). Go figure that if it handles that case correctly, emulating the other bugs is a relative cakewalk.

What about the red disk duplication bug?

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 5/29/2013 9:42 PM

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Mr._Pwnage

Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223

It doesn't have that, but neither does the latest SpeedFix.

Posted: 5/29/2013 9:42 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4124)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands

Mr. Pwnage wrote:

It doesn't have that, but neither does the latest SpeedFix.

SpeedFix has a command-line option to include it. And the original version has it as well.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

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