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Posted: 5/20/2009 7:30 PM
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Kirkq
Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
I've done numerous estimating tests in real time with approximate stats we should have at that point. That's where most of the potion amounts come from. The problem is that the stat gain pool has something around 256 possibilities, only a couple of which are optimal with respect to this run. Some levelups occur in fights with numerous other scenarios needing produced as an outcome. I'm not positive what kind of stats we will have at the end of the run, or how optimal brute forcing can get a fight to be with respect to potion count.
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Posted: 5/21/2009 9:04 PM
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Healblade
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 91
Oh. Wow. I lack the vocabulary to express how impressed I am with this route. I must confess, though, that the mere thought of Lux/Lejes being capable of taking down Gorsia at level 25 is hard to accept. At level 25 with max gear and maximum stats from level up and the seeds you've listed, Lux has potentially 210 HP, 133 Power, 158 Guard, and 115 Speed. Let's assume that you've made it through the set-up phase of the Gorsia battle having managed to use the Runes against him and use B Power and B Prtct. At this point, you still have only a 17% chance of not missing an attack on Gorsia. Also, you'll have to Defend+Attack since your attacks will otherwise do only 1 damage compared to 59-99 damage with a Defend+Attack. While Lux will be able to survive two physical attacks from Gorsia about half the time (and unless I'm mistaken, all the time if one of them is on a turn Lux is Defending), I am concerned about being able to deplete Gorsia's 2000 HP before running out of Potn 3 and M Water. Also, at level 25, Lejes will have a maximum of 110 MP (okay, a little more because of the Elnard bonuses), but still he'll only be able to use F Shield 6-8 times before running out of MP, and you won't have M Herb to replenish his MP. I really don't want to be discouraging, but I am concerned, and I'm hoping I'm missing something, I'm mistaken on something, my numbers are wrong, or you know something I don't (all of which are more than a little possible). The "obvious" plan I'm assuming of having Lejes mostly functioning as support through F Shield and Potn 3 while Lux Defend+Attacks might not be what you have in mind. In short, what is the "if everything goes perfectly in the ideal way" plan to kill Gorsia?
Posted: 5/21/2009 10:14 PM
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Animand
Joined: 8/22/2006
Posts: 24
Location: Georgia
I checked Healblade's calculations, and I think he made a couple mistakes that help a little. Lux will have 145 Speed after a B Agility, giving him a 41% hit chance Gorsia (runed). Also, if you get the upgrade from the guy in Melenam, Lux will have an extra 30 HP totaling 240. With runes and B Protect, Gorsia will hit him for 77-129, meaning Lux survives most 2 consecutive hits, and always survives if he guards one turn. At this point, Lejes could stretch the fight out 18 turns with 9 Recovery, 9 turns for 9 Potion 2. Lux, hitting for 99 max every 2 turns, will need at least 21 attacks to kill Gorsia. To be honest, I just don't think we'd have the damage output at level 25. Since I'm raining on your parade, I'm obligated to give you better news as well. I'll post a few lines of info, then explain. With max power, at level 25, Lux has 133 Power and hits for 59-99. With max power, at level 26, Lux has 138 Power and hits for 71-118. With max power, at level 27, Lux has 143 Power and hits for 82-136. With max power, at level 28, Lux has 148 Power and hits for 93-155. If judicious use of runes, F Shield, M Waters 1 and 2, can get Gorsia fully runed, with Lux and Lejes potioned up, then we have around 27 turns to try to finish the job (plus another turn for each Potion 2). I think this is pretty much impossible at level 25, so let's check for higher levels. At 26, Lux kills a runed Gorsia in an average of 22 attacks, down to 17 if we can get "lucky". At 27, this becomes an average of 19 attacks and a minimum of 15, which may be workable. At 28, this shouldn't be a problem. If we can't manage Gorsia at 25, 1-2 extra levels would drastically improve our chances. By 28, this should be a blowout. But I think it's important to know how doable this is at 25-27 with the expected parameters.
I'm not really here. Pressing Up+Down too many times glitched your graphics. And audio. Yeah.
Posted: 5/21/2009 10:57 PM
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Nitrodon
Active player (283)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
Don't forget that the tune-up also gives +20 power, guard, magic, and speed. The hit rate formula in Nati's FAQ is wrong. With 142-171 speed, we have a 50% hit rate against Gorsia. Thus, 142 speed is all we need, since there's no way we'll level up enough to get a higher hit rate. Also, I should mention that we do have several Recvrys, so Lejes's MP will not be a problem.
Posted: 5/22/2009 2:47 AM
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Animand
Joined: 8/22/2006
Posts: 24
Location: Georgia
Well, that takes care of my doubts and probably Healblade's as well. Good luck! P.S. Mind posting some more hit rate information, Nitrodon? I'd love to have a better idea about how it works.
I'm not really here. Pressing Up+Down too many times glitched your graphics. And audio. Yeah.
Posted: 5/22/2009 5:14 AM
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Nitrodon
Active player (283)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
Sure, I made a table a while back (but never posted it). 
  speed difference  | hit%
--------------------+--------------
       AS-TS <= -89 | 10% ( 26/256)
-88 <= AS-TS <= -59 | 30% ( 77/256)
-58 <= AS-TS <= -29 | 50% (128/256)
-28 <= AS-TS <= -19 | 60% (154/256)
-18 <= AS-TS <=  -9 | 71% (181/256)
 -8 <= AS-TS <=  -4 | 79% (203/256)
 -3 <= AS-TS <=   1 | 83% (213/256)
  2 <= AS-TS <=   6 | 85% (218/256)
  7 <= AS-TS <=  11 | 90% (231/256)
 12 <= AS-TS <=  21 | 95% (244/256)
 22 <= AS-TS        | 98% (251/256)
Posted: 5/22/2009 5:44 AM
(Edited: 6/12/2009 5:17 AM)
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Kirkq
Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Lux EXP - 62399 Currently 22 Lejes EXP - 71276 Currently 23 EXP left to distribute after recruiting Lejes: 28418 Lux to 23 - 9052 Either to 24 - 10077 Either to 25 - 10984 We are looking at Lux at level 23, and Lejes at level 24. 2 Pr Seed 2 P Seed 4 A Seed 1 V Seed (all to Lux) Level 23 Lux Max Stats: HP - 194 MP - 69 Power - 115 Guard - 138 Magic - 91 Speed - 91 Add seeds and Melenam boost. Level 23 Lux Max Boosted Stats: HP - 228 MP - 99 Power - 143 Guard - 166 Magic - 111 Speed - 127 Average stats of Elnard Boosted Level 24 Lejes HP - 151 MP - 122 Power - 93 Guard - 93 Magic - 92 Speed - 116 (The run only has him recruited/boosted to 23, but recruited apprentices have values slightly plus or minus average, so we can round up.) I'm going to make a convincing .smv attempting the final three fights with these stats, and I will post my best attempt later. EDIT: I should've used potion 3's instead of 2's, but here is my attempt thus far. It should kill Griffan, if it dies at Griffan you aren't using the same emulator as me, we think. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1940234083/7th%20Saga%20GoronGriffan%20Test4.smv I used turbo religiously which doesn't make the viewing all that pleasurable. I am one level too high, because I forgot I level up after Griffan, but the difference is almost negligible. I used 3 potn2, 6 potn3, and 3 recovery. This is by far my best iteration, I am quite confident I can kill Gorsia on this attempt, but I will try later. EDIT2: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/321785173/Gorsia%20Kill%20Weapons.smv A mediocre attempt without the armors and with the Kryn.
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Posted: 5/22/2009 8:58 AM
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Healblade
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 91
Healblade wrote:
I really don't want to be discouraging, but I am concerned, and I'm hoping I'm missing something, I'm mistaken on something, my numbers are wrong, or you know something I don't (all of which are more than a little possible).
E. All of the Above, apparently. I like it. I'll hold any further comment until I've seen the movie you posted, but I'm excited instead of concerned this time!
Posted: 5/22/2009 10:28 PM
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Kirkq
Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
The file name may speak for itself. =) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/259136904/Gorsia%20Kill.smv *May not sync on some SNES9x versions* Nitrodon's pathing lua script takes me to Guanas and Gorfun. It should take care of all the pathing throughout the game once modified to work in the necessary caves/dungeons. The only thing left really is botting the fights to get a more accurate idea of what kind of potions we will actually need. Remember I'm one level too high for Goron and Griffan. This was all performed in real time with numerous reloads. I believe this is an accurate depiction of how the final fights will go. There seems to be exactly 3 types of menu options that change the RNG. Attack, Defend, and Item. The others overlap these. Sometimes i purposely miss attacks to force a hit to connect for the other character, etc. Attacks miss Gorsia an obscene amount at this level. I hope this makes the route a little more convincing. I believe recruiting apprentices at level 21 is a good threshold for this run. This is what is required to get the apprentice gear boost, and thus afford the expensive gear at the end of the run. Having Lux/Lejes at 23/24 seems to be a near minimal case for a timely completion.
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Posted: 5/23/2009 9:35 AM
(Edited: 6/12/2009 1:18 PM)
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Kirkq
Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
RNG = 006C, 006E Pausing messes with the RNG if you pause while people are walking or while enemies are moving. I'm wondering if it is actually faster to save in Rablesk or not. It may be faster to only visit Rablesk after dying to Romus. It is very close, I will test it tomorrow. I don't know why I didn't consider this before. EDIT: Latest WIP: Buying Vacuums in Tiffana http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/519452733/Tiffana%20Test.smv
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Posted: 6/9/2009 3:44 AM
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Nitrodon
Active player (283)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1379140471/Pandam%20Reached.smv The URL should be self-explanatory. We plan to make some changes in the route, so we'll probably need to test the remaining battles before making another WIP.
Posted: 6/12/2009 9:06 AM
(Edited: 2/12/2010 12:58 AM)
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Kirkq
Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
This route has been modified to allow buying of the Kryn Fist, and neglecting of any armor. The Kryn fist changes Lux's projected damage against Gorsia from about 74 to about 97. We concluded armor wasn't necessary. It saves around 5 damage per hit when Gorsia deals around 50 when defending of our Lux 200/Lejes 150 health. Armor was originally thought necessary due to spell resistance, but we later realized that it wasn't necessary when abusing F Shield. We therefore only need to steal Olvan's gear, because money is not nearly as much of an issue any more. We knew these were possibilities, but we knew there would be no route changes necessary until Pandam. Here is the revised route. It probably needs some editing for clarifications that are currently in the back of my head but not in this post. Pandam- Collect:Ring (Ring = end game insurance money.) Wind Rune to Entrance Exit Tiffana- Purchase 9 Vacuums Wind Rune to Tiffana- Engage and Vacuum 9 S Brains while walking around Tiffana (Level = 15) Wind Rune to Tiffana- Purchase 9 Vacuums Engage and Vacuum 9 S Brains while walking towards Brush (Level = 18) Enter Brush Wind Rune to Tiffana- Purchase 9 Vacuums Wind Rune to Brush- Engage and Vacuum 9 S Brains while walking towards Bilthem Walk the other 1/2 of the path to Bilthem, Enter town (Level = 20) *Apprentice Responses Change after S Brain 24* (Kamil = Join) *Make sure 5121 (Locations) is at a value beyond M Pison.* M Water Wilme Recruit Kamil (Lv. 21) Wind Rune to Pandam- Padal- Purchase: 9 B Agility Purchase: 7 Potion2 Purchase: 8 B Protect Purchase: 3 M Water (Serpent, Dragon, Doros) Collect: Recovery (Check which first) Activate Prosa (Say no.) (Check which first) Wind Rune to Tiffana- Exit Baran Castle- Collect: Potion2 Collect: Recovery Kill Serpent (Costs 2 B Power.) (Level: 21) (Let Kamil Die.) M Water Kamil Wind Rune to Padal- Exit Telaine- Walk to Prosa (Around the left?) Collect: Moon Rune Wind Rune to entrance Cave of Beore- Exit to Luze Luze- Kill Dragon (No items) (Let Kamil die.) (Do not check pedestal) Sky Rune must be in Olvan possession. *Apprentice Responses Change* (Olvan/Lejes = Join) -----Somewhere after Dragon but before M Pison----- Wind Rune to Pell- Kill 2x Brain (Manipulate 2x Recovery) --------------------------------------------------------------- M Water Kamil Recruit Olvan (Lv. 22) Collect: Sky Rune Wind Rune to Bilthem- Collect: Exigate Doros Castle- Collect: Amulet Collect: Star Collect: Potn2 Collect: Harp? Kill Doros (Costs 4-5 Potn2, 2 B Agility) (Let Olvan Die.) M Water Olvan Wind Rune Brush- Fortune Teller Rarsa (100 G) Brantu - Flying Machine Valenca - Exit Cave of Kapel - (Loss of Magic) Exit Guanta - Enter/Exit Cave of Silence - Collect: M Water Kill M Pison (costs nothing) (Level: 22) (Let Olvan Die.) Collect: Moonlight Exigate outside M Water Olvan Wind Rune Bonro Sell Olvan's Gear directly. Recruit Lejes Wind Rune Guanta- Exit Gorfun- Kill Monmo Kill Gariso (Costs: 1 B Agility?, 4-5 Potn 2) Pharano- Collect: Recovery Purchase: 8 B Power Purchase: Max Potion 2 Purchase: Max Potion 3 Purchase: 2-3 M Water Ligena: (Manipulate Airship) Melenam: Get Lux a tuneup Exit Palsu: Get letter, Exit. Melenam: Purchase: Doom Sword, Kryn Fist Tour Lab Talk to one person on the way out. Reenter Lab Kill Foma (costs 2-3 Potn3) Airship: (Hopefully not buying anything) Exit. Barrier Cave: Kill Goron Kill Griffan Talk to Saro Death Warp (lose half gold) Airship: Purchase Max Potion 3 Purchase 2 B Agility Village: Collect Runes (not Sky) Gorfun: Kill Gorsia
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Posted: 6/16/2009 3:12 AM
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p0rtal_0f_rain
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
Woah, somebody already putting this game to the test?! I was fixing to start studying this game, but I can tell how impressive this has been!
Posted: 6/16/2009 7:02 AM
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Pasky13
Former player
Joined: 5/4/2005
Posts: 502
Location: Onett, Eagleland
I've still never even beaten an actual run of the game. I'm more interested in seeing it TAS'd just to see it being completed. Will be keeping an eye on this :).
I think.....therefore I am not Barry Burton
Posted: 6/16/2009 3:56 PM
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p0rtal_0f_rain
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
How heavy is the luck manipulation on this game?!
Posted: 6/16/2009 11:30 PM
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Healblade
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 91
The luck manipulation outside of the overworld is a serious pain.
Posted: 6/17/2009 2:45 AM
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Kirkq
Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Any time we want an event to occur on a specific RNG, we have to polish the RNG up to that point. Varied walking patterns and pausing the game (costs minimum 4 frames) in an area with monsters will fairly drastically change the RNG to a more favorable state. Things manipulated thus far: -Wilme is manipulated to be in Bonro Weapon/Armor Shop waiting to join upon the second start press of the game (only costs 3 frames surprisingly). -Romus is manipulated to kill us in two hits the first time to set the trick's first attack to petrify. (The next enemy action is directly based on the previous.) -Romus is engaged the second time to allow for the most optimal set of two levels possible (there are only 256 possibilities when not on the overworld). -The Trick is engaged such that he will stay petrified enough turns, and give us an optimal level and an emerald while dying in a timely manner. -Pison's battle gives us another great level. We selected the RNG we wanted to end on out of 256 and found an attack combination that produced it. -In Bonro the RNG is polished throughout town such that Wilme is level 6 and has good stats, and various people are manipulated out of the way. -In Zellis people are manipulated out of the way, and Brantu is manipulated to walk towards us. -The RNG is rigorously polished up until R Pison to get us the exact value we selected out of 256. We selected the value to end on and traced about 17 rounds backwards to produce the levelup. After determining the fight from the RNG, we then purchased the exact amount of potions and went to engage the fight we seletced. The Red Pison fight took me over 5 hours after Nitrodon had compiled all the information, and made his own attempts. It was traced backwards from the levelup. Nitrodon probably spent more than that on his own attempts to figure out all of the subtle behaviors of the RNG based on actions. -In Eygus, Valsu is manipulated to be the apprentice, and he is manipulated to have low stats to die more easily. -In Guntz we manipulate the P Seed to give +4 Power before the Elder moves, then the RNG is such that the elder moves towards us after the P Seed. -Patrof Cavern floor 2 - the pause is necessary to get by the monsters -Patrof Cavern end of floor 2 and all of floor 3, the RNG is polished to allow Valsu to die in two hits. -In Bone Perole in manipulated to walk towards us. Right now we are trying to produce an optimal two levelups off the first vacuumed S Brain. (1/8 chance to engage 1 S Brain, 71% chance for a normal attack to connect, 30% chance of Vacuum success, and RNG increments based on waves hitting the shore.) That is approximately the luck manipulation.
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Posted: 6/17/2009 3:54 AM
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p0rtal_0f_rain
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
Now guys, for the first boss (Romus), you're all aware by now that getting the Whistle from the town west of the Castle and using that will kill Romus in one hit, right...?!!! The question is how many frames are sacrificed for this move?!
Posted: 6/17/2009 4:07 AM
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Kirkq
Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Kirkq wrote:
About 6000 frames are spent killing Romus in Dromiceius's test run at level 3 as opposed to 9000 spent acquiring the whistle and starting grinding at level 3. It seems faster to me.
Unless you have a way to get to level 3 in 50 seconds, and account for the gold spent on B Protect and B Power, getting the whistle is fastest by far. Please watch the WIP at the top of this page and read through our various route posts, I assure you this has all been calculated.
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Posted: 6/17/2009 5:18 AM
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Healblade
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 91
Some day after you've finished this TAS, you should explain how you are "polishing the RNG". Ultimately, that's the most impressive thing I've seen (though the route is impressive).
Posted: 6/17/2009 5:29 AM
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Kirkq
Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
It's not really as complicated as it sounds, though it is pretty tedious. I'll explain it with manipulating people first. People begin to move on X frame. If you open the menu for just a frame on the frame they want to move, they won't move. The RNG won't increment, it will increment to the number it would have when the next person moves. Monsters in the crystal ball move extremely sporadically, pausing over one increment will cause that RNG to be used by a new monster and create an exponential effect on movement of monsters, which is what drives the RNG faster or slower. So one short pause can affect the RNG over a few seconds to vary by a substantial amount. Varying step patterns also cause different monster movement because they move and spawn somewhat relative to where you are. In combining these two before the event you need to affect, you can cut down most wait times to under half a second with enough testing. Basically we just test various step patterns, and various steps to pause on for a couple frames until we get a sufficient result.
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Posted: 6/26/2009 3:58 PM
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Kirkq
Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BTOT06uEEQ (There's 3 videos up. They aren't linking in the related videos bar so just check my channel) I've uploaded the first 30 minutes to youtube, now that I've finally figured out how to get the audio to synchronize. This goes through the first S Brain. I've been having trouble hitting the correct RNG for the second S Brain. We only have to do this 27 times. (The first few have leveling, which makes it mathematically 16 times worse) Progress is going to be very slow for some time, to say the least. EDIT: Mild update, round 2 of 3 of S Brains complete S Brain 20 complete http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1125313544/S20%20Perfect%20Backup.smv I did a chart of time to recruitment. Numbers based off an already open to wind rune menu, so add 5 to anything in the left column. --0737: Bonro item shop 554f --0738: Bonro weapon/armor shop 434f Lejes = 2f --0739: Bonro tavern 495f --073A: Zellis tavern 588f --073B: Zellis armor shop 432f --073C: Zellis inn 606f --073D: Eygus house of healing 590f --073E: Eygus NW house 942f --073F: Eygus inn 424f --0740: Pell outside tavern 472f --0741: Pell W house 721f Olvan = 542 + Coolness factor --0742: Pell house of healing 619f --0743: Guntz SE house 495f --0744: Guntz inn 575f --0745: Guntz outside E house 508f --0746: Patrof inn 494f --0747: Patrof tavern 556f Olvan = 464 + Coolness --0748: Patrof weapon/armor shop 621f --0749: Bone item shop 636f --074A: Bone weapon/armor shop 1060f --074B: Bone SE house 1623f --074C: Dowaine outside SW X --074D: Dowaine house of healing X --074E: Dowaine weapon shop X --074F: Belaine inn X --0750: Belaine NW weapon shop X --0751: Belaine castle basement X --0752: Telaine outside SE 575f --0753: Telaine tavern 843f --0754: Telaine armor shop 659f --0755: Pang SE house X --0756: Pang E house X --0757: Pang outside SW X --0758: Padal outside W 391f, Kamil = 224f, Olvan ~233f + Coolness --0759: Padal barracks 550f Kamil = 0f --075A: Padal inn 522f --075B: Polasu item/weapon X --075C: Polasu inn X --075D: Polasu outside NE X --075E: Tiffana inn 647f --075F: Tiffana castle E balcony 1348 --0760: Tiffana armor shop 679f --0761: Bilthem inn 687f Olvan = 96f --0762: Bilthem 3F 920f Olvan = 48f --0763: Bilthem 1F E room 739f Olvan = 547f + Coolness --0764: Pandam tavern 409f --0765: Pandam weapon shop 754f Olvan = 663f + Coolness --0766: Pandam upstairs near dock 844f --0767: Brush outside NE 689f --0768: Brush tavern 819f --0769: Brush item shop 535f When recruiting Olvan for the Sky Rune, we are able to cancel the "got Sky Rune" dialog/music if we are able to screen transition in exactly one step. This saves approximately 179 frames if applicable. I checked all places this could occur. It only saves time if the apprentice is one step from a transtion door upon spawning.
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Posted: 7/30/2009 6:07 PM
(Edited: 8/5/2009 3:24 AM)
Post subject: Grinding followed by Grinding.
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Kirkq
Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
The entirety of grinding complete in roughly 14 minutes. This WIP goes through Padal and gets to Serpent. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1675479866/To%20Serpent.smv Kamil, Olvan, and Lejes are in phenomenal placement, and Kamil is set to join. There was a 1/4096 chance that the apprentice locations could be this good. You can spoil yourself or stay tuned. =) Kamil = Padal Barracks (0 frames) Olvan = Bilthem 3F (48 frames) Lejes = Patrof Weapon/Armor Shop (621 frames, but we can shop for Olvan there and save a trip to Bonro) Part 4 - It's just grinding. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfdl9gJMmgU
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Posted: 8/1/2009 2:38 PM
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p0rtal_0f_rain
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I reviewed the long list of monsters that provide the most ex. (not bosses). It's tough to say the Stone Brain beats all the other monsters!
Posted: 9/4/2009 6:30 AM
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tmont
Player (51)
Joined: 10/6/2005
Posts: 138
Location: Oregon
Just thought I'd post to mention that I've been following this thread with vigor for the last couple years, desperately hoping that someone will finish this run. This game is rad and so are all of you. So, you know, you guys have a fan. Somebody cares. Love always, Tommy
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