Topic by Sastopher

Posted: 3/15/2007 1:18 PM

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Sastopher

Joined: 3/15/2005
Posts: 30
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Wow wow wow. I laughed out loud when Comicalflop proved his name by launching off Wario. Too good. Also, thanks for Dehacked for burning some extra bandwidth getting these classy videos up. We appreciate it, truly. In other news, I think you guys are obsessing too much over which display to use. Trust the author to make the run entertaining. Now that the interest in different displays has been pointed out, I doubt he's going to miss an opportunity to show off something interesting. In any case, I'd like to think this is in a similar vein to stylistic choices in other games that don't effect time, where different people might have different preferences over what's better, but ultimately the author's decision is the one that gets used. Comicalflop, your goal is a star? Keep up the amazing work and I'm certain you'll get it.

I ought not to tie the knot too taught.

Posted: 3/15/2007 3:12 PM

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Weatherton

Experienced player (601)

Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706

Sastopher wrote:

Wow wow wow. I laughed out loud when Comicalflop proved his name by launching off Wario. Too good.

The ironic thing? That jump was raced partly by me and partly by Fried :P Wait till you see KD...

Current Project: - Mario Kart 64

Posted: 3/15/2007 3:32 PM
(Edited: 3/15/2007 8:47 PM)

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

Weatherton wrote:

The ironic thing? That jump was raced partly by me and partly by Fried :P Wait till you see KD...

Oopsie! I forgot to mention exactly how much Weatherton and Fried helped out with this particular version. Fried did the segment from the 2nd shroom around the curve all the way into the tunnel. (I couldn't nail the mystery boost.) He also found the input for the perfect mylestyle, which I altered to suit my aesthetic needs. (I had an inferior mylestyle, his camera viewpoint was too close.) Weatherton took over from landing the mylestyle, got into position, and boosted off Wario. Fried took over in the air, curved left more than W or I could, hit the wall, and got the 37"18 finish. The three of us would pretty much all work on the same segment at the same time, and go with whoever had the best outcome. So for the segments I described above I was TASing as well, but their input went into the final product. Fried and I exchanged a lot of .m64's for the entire first 21"75 seconds, and he'd show me which is the fastest way to do things, which I implemented. at the end, Weatherton and I would spend hours trying to boost off Wario correctly; Weatherton pulled off the first boost that netted 38"46 (which I optimized at the end) and Fried took that boost and altered it to be 37"18. It *should* be mostly me driving from now on, since after 1 month of Fried's optimized teachings I've pretty much got it down, and Weatherton's going to be playing with future courses so that I enter courses knowing full what to do. Speaking of which, yeah Kalimari Desert is going to kick Ass.

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Posted: 3/15/2007 8:43 PM

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Kles

Joined: 7/28/2005
Posts: 339

What's so special about KD that's not special about MMF or KTB?

Posted: 3/15/2007 8:45 PM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

you'll see. ^-^ A previously un-accomplished shortcut was pulled off.

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Posted: 3/15/2007 11:39 PM

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TheFrigz

Joined: 2/9/2006
Posts: 124

Oh snap..if that means what I think it does...O_O!!

Posted: 3/16/2007 12:34 AM

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Sastopher

Joined: 3/15/2005
Posts: 30
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Oh! Well pardons for forsaking credit to those deserving of it. I'm amused at the idea of 3 parallel runners who combine to make the best of the three situations. While I think it's fine you'll be changing the way you cooperate, I think it's a remarkably good idea to have done the first course this way. Where in a number of games it's possible to predict the optimal solution, given the maximum speed of the character or by figuring out how fast a boss can take damage, MK64 has no easily determined solution, as evidenced by comicalflops comment that he really has no idea how fast he expects to finish the game. As such, it's by exhausting all reasonable possibilities and trial and error (along with a strong background knowledge of game mechanics) that the best run is made. Good job guys, and keep up the good work. I'll stay posted for further updates.

I ought not to tie the knot too taught.

Posted: 3/16/2007 2:02 AM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

you can tell when Fried is driving because the input plugin changes from max of 99 to 62. (weatherton uses the same plugin as me.) and it's not your fault for the discrepency, my bad for not initially mentioning it. (I thought I had.) Fried is now off doing some TT TAS's, aiming to beat WR flaps, and hopefully Weatherton will get the ball rolling on a 2P vs. run in addition to testing future courses. TheFrigz: spot on. exactly that shortcut that no one had ever successfully nailed.

Spider-Waffle wrote:

What about just doing everything in speedometer, then hex edit in two different versions, one for each display type. Or you could just do more hex editing to take out the mid-level view changes.

This actually is not a bad idea.

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Posted: 3/16/2007 4:03 AM

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Kles

Joined: 7/28/2005
Posts: 339

Oh, dear. I hope Fried doesn't release his TAS findings publicly. I'm very much against time trial TAS'. They damage the real TT community.

Posted: 3/16/2007 4:09 AM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 6/13/2006
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Location: Massachussetts, USA

He's not releasing them publicly. at least not submitting them here. (posting youtube I believe.) Interestingly, it's showing how tight the real TT's are (as I suspected a TT TAS would be which is why I chose GP.) some times of his: LR 3 shroom nonsc: 31"30 LR SC no shroom: 23"15

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Posted: 3/16/2007 6:14 AM

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Ersatz

Joined: 8/9/2004
Posts: 139
Location: Washington State

I greatly disagree that TAS TTs could harm the TT community... but perhaps this is due for an entirely new thread. It boggles my mind one would be so offended to have been outdone but a TAS he would stop TTing

Posted: 3/16/2007 7:18 AM

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laughing_gas

Former player

Joined: 10/1/2006
Posts: 1102
Location: boot_camp

well there's a difference between tases that show new techniques but still doable, and tases that are just humanly impossible in terms of input. The latter can be quite discouraging for dedicated runners who spend hours trying to reach the theoretical limit, only to give up in fear that others may think the tases are real. Although I personally would still strive to achieve the best humanly possible time, even if the whole world thinks the tas is the WR.

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Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.

Posted: 3/16/2007 9:01 AM

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Spider-Waffle

Banned User

Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049

I think all TASes now a days do a good job saying it's tool-assisted in the video. So there should be no fear of people thinking it's real, which would be a bad thing, but that's why we strive to prevent that. TASes if anything help the real speedrunning comunity by simply showing what's possible. Finding out what the truely maxed out times are is very impowering to real speedrunner.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

Posted: 3/16/2007 9:03 AM

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Spider-Waffle

Banned User

Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049

This is on the way to becoming my favorite TAS. I've watched the LR run so many times and showed a bunch of friends, they like too.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

Posted: 3/16/2007 1:54 PM

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TheFrigz

Joined: 2/9/2006
Posts: 124

I'm not against TT TASs at all. I don't think they'd be as entertaining as GP, but TT could -possibly- come up with new routes for TT runners.

Posted: 3/17/2007 6:22 AM

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Spider-Waffle

Banned User

Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049

There's no telling what you can find out when you slow a game down. New discovers happen from this all the time.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

Posted: 3/17/2007 9:00 PM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

I have to take those new discoveries and 100% optimize them, which can be a real pain for me. I'm not going to lie, the KD shortcut Weatherton and I developed scares the crap out of me for finding the perfect frame to do everything. (hint: think Yoshi's Island caliber of shooting eggs at perfect angles, being in the right time/place, and having everything work perfectly. Except in 3 dimensions.)

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Posted: 3/18/2007 8:37 AM

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Michael_Fried

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

Fried took over in the air, curved left more than W or I could, hit the wall, and got the 37"18 finish.

Actually I took over on the ground. I just started pressing left earlier than you did.

Oh, dear. I hope Fried doesn't release his TAS findings publicly. I'm very much against time trial TAS'. They damage the real TT community.

I posted the 2 time trials TASs I did so far on youtube and on wrvids.

you can tell when Fried is driving because the input plugin changes from max of 99 to 62. (weatherton uses the same plugin as me.)

It has nothing to do with plugin. The one I uses lets me go up to 99, but I choose not to because based on the tests I did there's no difference between 62 and 99.

Posted: 3/21/2007 1:57 AM

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Spider-Waffle

Banned User

Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049

so how's moo moo farm going? trying for any special shortcuts? There aren't any documented ones are there?

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

Posted: 3/21/2007 2:23 AM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 6/13/2006
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Location: Massachussetts, USA

I think this best describes the circular progress of this game in general. It takes hours to gain seconds of driving, and then I have to go back and try it in a different way, or optimize it more. (I'm actually thinking test runs of each stage aka 120 Star would be beneficial, I'll look into that.) There's a theoretical shortcut, which 1) hasn't been done yet, and 2) I mentally calculated to be slightly slower. So no shortcut for this stage. In the end, too many courses all with the same boost off CPU trick will get boring, and don't you want to see some killer expert driving as well? MMF is tricky; it's very bouncy. you get too much speed, and you'll be in the air and then tossed like a rag doll. sometimes you'll want to go down a steep hill, but you're going too fast, and you're in the air; you go faster on downhills. Knowing which hills to go up and which to go down takes a lot of testing. I have to constantly watch my speed (I am actually very in favor of the end .m64 having the beginning C-right input being taken out so that the entire run is shown with the mini map.) The moles are luck manipulatable, which also means that at random times I'll have shroomed around a fence and WHAM! get suddenly hit by one. Lessee, tack on some mushroom manipulating troubles every now and then, throw on a sprinkle of family reasons that can make me not work on this (early bed time, "get off computer!", etc. I swear, I can get more done at college), and have a final topping of Fried-making-sure-I-redo-segments-to-gain tiny-amounts-of-frames? That right there is the Mario Kart 64 150cc GP TAS Sundae Ice Cream in a nutshell!

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Posted: 3/21/2007 2:32 AM

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bkDJ

Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215

it's no Americone Dream

Posted: 3/21/2007 6:06 AM

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Spider-Waffle

Banned User

Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049

If fried is doing those TT runs you'd think he could do levels like moo moo farm pretty well.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

Posted: 3/21/2007 1:14 PM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

I discussed with both Fried and Weatherton over IM and both agreed that MMF is very tricky, so it's going to be hard regardless of who does it. Given time, it'll get done, no worries, but perfection comes first. This is what I signed up for.

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Posted: 3/22/2007 4:22 AM

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