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Experienced player (601)
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Hmm, while not entirely new (see the compilation video I made to see it done in the late 90's) I've never seen that jump cause THAT much height. I will have to experiment with this a bit to see what caused it (and if it can be done with items rather than turbo strips...). Do you know who made it? I wish we could see the input. Definitely won't help in ComicalFlops' run though since he does not have another player to drive towards him. EDIT* Seems that the this may have something to do with Bowser being able to get a mushroom like boost while having an active star... That would make this unique to the turbo strip and thus only useful in a 3-player or 4-player run (since it would save more time to use a second player to get up to the jump).
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Weatherton wrote:
Hmm, while not entirely new (see the compilation video I made to see it done in the late 90's) I've never seen that jump cause THAT much height. I will have to experiment with this a bit to see what caused it (and if it can be done with items rather than turbo strips...). Do you know who made it? I wish we could see the input. Definitely won't help in ComicalFlops' run though since he does not have another player to drive towards him.
He can turn around and run into a starred Bowser coming the other way. Indeed, such an arrangement may be more convenient as he'll land closer to the finish line.
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I wonder if you could launch around the finish line this way.
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well, I do have an idea or two for Royal Raceway, but the odds of my desired CPU having a star so early into the race are nil. I've so far manipulated a CPU to not use lightning when he/she normally would, and have made someone's star disappear. forcing a CPU to have star seems maybe a little out of reach. I can't divulge much more, but I'm slightly certain I can do the 2P shortcut at least once or twice in RRa. I'll see when I get there.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
I wonder if you could launch around the finish line this way.
we tried that with the 540's vid (which unfortunately we couldn't do, Wario was juuuuust barely not close enough to the side of the road.) It would only work if the extended invisible finish line is incredibly short on one side, which is only the case for 3 tracks: Luigi Raceway, Mario Raceway, and Wario Stadium. MMF update: perfected the first 9"86 of lap 1. Now I have to test to go up a hill or around it, and which is faster.
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I was thinking, you might be able to launch out way over the water and land on the grass past the turn, or launch out into the water and having gone just around the finish line and have it pick you up as if you made a lap. Or maybe do the same but over the wall on the other side.
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One of the many reasons why I hate Mario Kart TASing of any kind: not as bad as the only item you want appearing on a specific in-game time, but I need to hit the item box and be driving in the exact right way for a mushroom to come fast. what may be perfect could end up in a very long wait for it to scroll through and select a mushroom, at which point I'm already at a steep hill. blarg. hrm, those are interesting ideas... but again, getting the right circumstances for a mega huge jump like that seem astronomical. if it's the CPU being under star that makes it happen, and not necessarily a boost effect, then it will be even harder. and Weatherotn and I took the 540 theory but couldn't apply it the way we wanted, and maybe this same theory won't be able to be applied the way we wanted but still used regardless. but phew man, what a breathtaking jump. that has to be worked into this TAS somehow, talk about truly surprising and not expected of this game.
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For some levels, have you considered you might want to drop into second place for the first item pick up so you can get a tripple shroom, or maybe infi-shroom. This would happen if you needed to use mulitple shrooms in a row to do lap skipping shortcuts or something and there was no item pick up along the way.
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I tried this in MMF. Here's what I concluded from a "not be in 1st place" strat: the item to get for such a technique is star. star has fastest power, lasts almost as long as an orange muhsroom, and still receives the same "faster when powersliding". But is dropping to 2nd/3rd worth it? My tests said no. It is simply too much of a sacrifice to gain a constant speed boost. when you're in 1st and not stopping for anything, you gain a surprising amount of ground. In LR I was vastly ahead of the CPUs, and the ones I encountered had actually all been attacked by other CPUs, which accounted for me lapping them so easily. In other courses where I'm not more than 1 lap ahead of the CPUs, they drive faster, but are still lagging behind me. as I've learned, in gaining distances/killer times, every frame counts. At the first set of item boxes, I had to wait 5 or more seconds for the CPUs to catch up and get ahead of me. that's a lot of time lost, especially considering that I can shroom at that point, and was almost at the next shroom. by the 2nd item boxes the CPUs were 4 seconds behind me because they had reached their max speed; again, still not worth it. Stars are fantastic for pulling off some shortcuts (KD lap glitch) and for going through obstacles, but it's best strength, for speed, is in vs. matches or in GP when you are behind. stars can lend to very amazing recoveries from behind. but it wastes time to willingly slow down at the beginning, lose your distance in 1st, just to get a star. However, I might get star in this run for other purposes. in KD, I'm going to get it to activate a lap glitch, and in KTB it's slightly possible that I can trick the game into thinking I'm in 8th place, and manipulate an item then. and there might be another scenario where I can use it to my advantage. a CPU getting star is actually a godsend to me, especially if a heavyweight and if the conditions are right like in the mega jump just posted. In the end, with extreme luck I may get it so that one CPU has a very fast start, and it is not as much time lost to drop in 2nd place and get a star, in which case I will consider doing that. but CPUs do seem to have slow starts, and Toad has a very fast start with a boost right at the beginning, and ssMT's/MT's, and usually reaches the item boxes within 3-7 seconds of the start. I don't think there is any course where I need multiple shrooms to pull off a shortcut. 1 shroom per seems just right. I'd also like to point out, for those who aren't aware of recent Mario Kart 64 development, that there is a very major shortcut for Kalamari Desert in the works. a shortcut this big/new is particularly interesting, since most of the major shortcuts for all courses that have shortcuts were discovered years ago, so this recent activity is actually very exciting, and I feel very honored to be a major part of it. I'm trying to introduce mupen to the testers as a good means of discovering new shortcuts, using savestates to easily pull off tricky driving, and easily capture an AVI, so it's a nice way of spreading the TASing love, even if not for making frame perfect movies but for test runs/demos. I also happened to encode a very seductive video from Weatherton, that cleverly uses the blue shell to gain a massive speed boost in the opposite desired direction. KTB blue shell boost This is a very sexy boost, and if only the shell had hit Toad on the right side, would've very likely made it to the other side of the mountain. KTB is very complicated. There's 6 or more shortcuts/glitches that I know of, many untested, many having not even been successfully completed, so there isn't even a route because it's unknown exactly which shortcuts/glitches to use, and in which order/lap to do in sequence. Figures that the mushroom cup ends up being the trickiest with so many shortcut possibilities and tech.
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comicalflop wrote:
At the first set of item boxes, I had to wait 5 or more seconds for the CPUs to catch up and get ahead of me. that's a lot of time lost, especially considering that I can shroom at that point, and was almost at the next shroom. by the 2nd item boxes the CPUs were 4 seconds behind me because they had reached their max speed; again, still not worth it.
Have you tried backing up at the beginning and physically pushing Yoshi up to the first set of item boxes? It's definitely going to be quicker than waiting around for him at the other end.
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"Do I have to go back there and push?" um, interesting idea, but the mechanics of being behind another CPU are very slippery. for one, being behind a kart is called "drafting" which will interestingly give me a speed boost and throw some things off, but more importantly, I don't even know if it's possible to push a kart forward. Ramming/moving into another kart, even at a slower speed, will push you either left or right (or up if jumping into it). there's a lot of bounciness when it comes to kart's coming in contact with each other. I made a test .m64 to show why it wouldn't work so well. I first used Bowser, and that was a bad idea, so I switched 2nd player to Yoshi. I think it's an interesitng idea, but won't work as well as F-Zero in getting a CPU to reach item boxes much quicker to make it worth it.
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comicalflop wrote:
"Do I have to go back there and push?" um, interesting idea, but the mechanics of being behind another CPU are very slippery. for one, being behind a kart is called "drafting" which will interestingly give me a speed boost and throw some things off, but more importantly, I don't even know if it's possible to push a kart forward. Ramming/moving into another kart, even at a slower speed, will push you either left or right (or up if jumping into it). there's a lot of bounciness when it comes to kart's coming in contact with each other. I made a test .m64 to show why it wouldn't work so well. I first used Bowser, and that was a bad idea, so I switched 2nd player to Yoshi. I think it's an interesitng idea, but won't work as well as F-Zero in getting a CPU to reach item boxes much quicker to make it worth it.
The CPU players in mk64 also adjust to your handicap, if you're really good (way in front) they tend to drive faster (to a limit) if you stay behind them, they slow down for you. Just something else to think about...
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I'm going to make a quick update for those wondering "Where the hell is Moo Moo Farm?" I'm still on the 1st lap, 10 seconds in. my momentum decreased a lot in testing a certain section, and I haven't touched it for a week, instead noodling with a few other games/ideas/activities. (OoT 100% planning, doing a lot of downloading of videos of concepts/wips, and other stuff.) I'll try to get back on track and complete 1 lap of MMF, because once that happens the rest will come quicker since each lap will be identical for the most part and I won't have to test which routes to take between the item boxes. The good news is that Weatherton has been making a *LOT* of progress in testing future courses.
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comicalflop wrote:
I haven't touched it for a week, instead noodling with a few other games/ideas/activities. (OoT 100% planning, doing a lot of downloading of videos of concepts/wips, and other stuff
I hope this doesn't go the way of Goldeneye, just to be picked up later after several months... that was agonizing! Keep on track we are all rooting for you!
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alright ... i'll wait for you to finish OoT 100% before coming back to this.
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Post subject: Re: MMf update
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Ersatz wrote:
comicalflop wrote:
I haven't touched it for a week, instead noodling with a few other games/ideas/activities. (OoT 100% planning, doing a lot of downloading of videos of concepts/wips, and other stuff
I hope this doesn't go the way of Goldeneye, just to be picked up later after several months... that was agonizing! Keep on track we are all rooting for you!
Trust me, progress is being made. This run has two, necessary, parallel efforts: strat/Short Cut searching and planning and then execution and optimization. The strat / Short Cut searching has had significant progress in the last week and it is important that that occurs before ComicalFlop gets to a level. Just to whet your appetites, here are some test-run videos: http://people.virginia.edu/~avw6s/MarioKart/FlowerCup_Testv4.avi http://people.virginia.edu/~avw6s/MarioKart/FlowerCup_Testv5-CM.avi http://people.virginia.edu/~avw6s/MarioKart/RRy_ShroomsInFirst_LakituWarp3.avi Please keep in mind that these are rough playthroughs and that they are more strategy-oriented. For example, I should have manipulated another shroom with one of the ghosts on TT but it proved frustratingly difficult andI needed the ghost immediately, so I just skipped it. Also, I have a feeling that first lap on FS could have been faster if I stopped AB spinning earlier (I continued through the whole lap, but I think it slowed me down at the end). Though I think spinning out allowed me to hop over an area that lakitu would normally pick me up. Also, hitting the tree on lap 2/3 boosted me over to where I needed to be while still avoiding that same Lakitu triggering-point. I needed to go to a different spot on that lap to be placed ahead of the bridge (which wouldn't have worked on any other lap). As for CM, it's still a work in progress but you can see how exciting the strat may be -- I have WIP's that are actually much faster now :) I'll keep those b/t me and ComicalFlop for the moment though.
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I have no idea what happened at Frappe Snowlands but it blew my mind...
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I thought you were just screwing around, there... took me completely by surprise when you won.
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those were some good video edits, almost had me believing this, on april fools day. :P
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bkDJ wrote:
those were some good video edits, almost had me believing this, on april fools day. :P
I dunno, MK64 does some wacky stuff with out of bounds placement. Lets just say I wouldn't be surprised if the was real or fake.
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Ersatz wrote:
I have no idea what happened at Frappe Snowlands but it blew my mind...
This is a well known FS shortcut... I'm a bit disappointed that I won't have mushrooms.
Titus Kwok wrote:
I thought you were just screwing around, there... took me completely by surprise when you won.
Expect this to be a common theme in the run :)
mmbossman wrote:
bkDJ wrote:
those were some good video edits, almost had me believing this, on april fools day. :P
I dunno, MK64 does some wacky stuff with out of bounds placement. Lets just say I wouldn't be surprised if the was real or fake.
Yeah, generally the only solid parts of the game are the tracks. most everything else is there for us crazy people to find shortcuts :P With the stuff Weatherton and I brainstorm, the final product will be so beyond having words to describe it. Practically every day that Weatherton and I chat on IM we come up with a new shortcut or new application of an older one, and it's not rare to come up with many shortcuts in a few hours.
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How did you get a star in first place? Can you get anything better than a shroom with a ghost?
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What if you had other players, could you take their stars or something?
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bkDJ wrote:
those were some good video edits, almost had me believing this, on april fools day. :P
If you watch the timer on the top right hand corner, you can tell they're not video edits since it'd be near impossible to synchronize all the times like that. Besides, every trick shown here aside from the item manipulation is possible on console. Just head over to speeddemosarchive =)
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Looks like you have a good start on flower cup. On CCM could you make it over the wall without getting picked up, maybe jump really well and climb the wall? Also, what's the plan for laps 2 and 3? I'm guessing you'll try and lap them then do the shortcut again on lap 3? Kind of a similar theme to LR.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
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