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Posted: 9/4/2006 12:02 PM
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Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2215)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
NES TAS of 2018 SNES TASer of 2017 SNES TAS of 2017 NES TAS of 2014 GBA TASer of 2011 GBA TAS of 2011 SNES TASer of 2010
Oh, forgot the 100 rupees for the Super Bomb. So it's a total of 2120 for the bomb/arrow upgrades... Whatever, just don't care about the upgrades, it sucks. About the boomerang... I don't think it is faster to skip the blue one. There are quite a lot of places you can use that on. Take rupees and keys. But it might be faster anyway, I'm not an expert=P.
Posted: 9/4/2006 1:38 PM
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Kyrsimys
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
I'd say no on the bomb/arrow upgrades. I always hated that part when playing and I'm pretty sure I'd hate that part even more just watching.
Posted: 9/4/2006 5:01 PM
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Oddity
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 178
xebra wrote:
Personally, I think it's much more effective to look at previous people's work than to completely reinvent the wheel.
Just as long as you have some creativity of your own. Without that, you'll definitely not be as fast as you could have, and would end up just wasting time (i.e. have to wait at least one more "improvement run" before the next fastest time can be achieved) and not be as impressive. I don't see the point of 100% runs if the game doesn't count any percentages at the end. Skipping the suit and whatever else seems completely illogical if you're looking for 100%. In my book, 100% in games that don't count such should include actions that you can only do one time. If you missed an item that can only be gotten one time, well then, wtf? Whatever.
<^>v AB X LR s
Posted: 9/5/2006 1:18 PM
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erokky
Former player
Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462
What am I saying. You would need to get the Magic Boomerang after the Flippers, since you're required to swim to get to the fairy. So there you go. I'm 85% positive that skipping the Boomerang at the start is beneficial. Don't take my word for it though, go for what you feel is best. Edit: But hold on, after the Flippers you need to travel south, then west to collect a heart piece. Now, this is tough. Can you call the chicken at the position where you collect the heart piece? If you can then it probably is best to get the boomerang (at the start) after all.
Posted: 9/6/2006 6:31 AM
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dezbeast
Former player
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
I decided to take my chances and start this thing. If anything, I'll have a great movie I could watch over and over again if it get's rejected for not meeting the judges requirements for 100%. Plus, others will enjoy it. It seems the majority are against getting the bomb and arrow upgrades, so I'm not going to get them. Right now I'm at the boomerang part. How does being able to call the bird effect whether or not I should get the boomerang? I don't see the relationship.
Posted: 9/6/2006 8:27 AM
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erokky
Former player
Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462
Okay. If you get the boomerang (aka 1 from here in) here, you must get the red boomerang (aka 2 from here in) from the fairy, and this requires the Flippers. After the Flippers, you need to head south and west some to collect the heart piece (it's most efficient to grab it now), and as far as I can remember, you are not able to call the bird at this particular zone, so you will need to exit it in order to call the bird. So instead of exiting the zone, I suggest that you should just collect 2 the way I describe it below, and save/quit at the heart piece near Zora. Also, not to mention the time it takes to swim to the fairy, throw the item and wait for her to appear, and the whole shebang. If you skip 1, you can get 2 instantly, later at the Village of Outcasts. As said earlier in this topic. There is a shop in Kakariko Village in a wooden enclosure. The Dark World equivalent houses a chest. The contents of this chest depends if you get 1 or not. If you have any boomerang at all, you will receive 300 rupees from the chest. If you have no boomerang at all, you will receive 2. The most efficient way to reach this building is right after Crystal Dungeon 4(Thieves' Hideout?). Note that to enter the enclosure, you need to bomb the wall. Dashing it has no effect. I should also add that if you prefer the 300 rupees from this chest, I say it is best to play the gambling game twice for 600(500 profit) rupees, and skip the other 300 chest in the Village of Outcasts altogether. But please do not quote me just yet. Test for yourself to see which way really is the most efficient.
Posted: 9/6/2006 11:45 AM
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flagitious
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Good reasoning with skipping the blue boomerang. I am can't remember, but is the chest in the south west of the village in the dark world the only place that gives you the red boomerang if you have no boomerang?
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 9/7/2006 3:49 AM
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dezbeast
Former player
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Ok, I just made it Zelda, and I didnt get the boomerang. But something has just occured to me. Isn't it true that you can get the red boomerang from the fat fairy? If so, then I might be better off getting the boomerang from the beginning since I have to get the golden sword and silver arrows anyway. I'll wait for your input before I continue.
Posted: 9/7/2006 3:59 AM
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OmnipotentEntity
He/Him
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2630
iirc, you can indeed get the red boomerang from the fat fairy, but getting any subsequent item from the fat fairy takes a long time. In order to test this all you need to do is compare trip times, just grab a save states from flag's run, and test from those.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Posted: 9/7/2006 5:29 AM
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erokky
Former player
Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462
If you can get the red boomerang from the fat fairy then it's probably best to get it from there then.
Posted: 9/7/2006 6:53 AM
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dezbeast
Former player
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Whoa, I just checked Flag's run, and it took 1300 frames per item. It's tough to say which would be faster. I'm going to sleep on it for now. When I get up, I'm going to comb through Flag's run and see the spots where the boomerang saves time. Then I'll test to see how long it takes to get the red boomerang in the Village of Outcasts. Edit: Just tested it and it takes almost as much time to go a little bit out of the way to get it than to just get it from the fat fairy. So I'm getting the blue one.
Posted: 9/9/2006 4:02 AM
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erokky
Former player
Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462
Here is a whip for dezbeast to base his run on: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1902/alttp.smv Forgive me for posting it so late, but I hope you can benefit from this. It beats my previous run by up to 61 frames. In my opinion, it can be improved by a further 10 frames if luck is on your side; I had to sacrifice many frames (around 4-8) to get around.
Posted: 9/9/2006 4:54 AM
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dezbeast
Former player
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Very nice! But I'm going to keep what I got so far since I have so much work ahead of me in this game. Right now I'm in the sewers. One quick question. I manipulated a blue rupee from one of the rats. But it took 13 frames to slash and 13 to grab with my boomerang. Do you know of any more efficient way to collect rupees or is what I did ok?
Posted: 9/9/2006 5:06 AM
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erokky
Former player
Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462
It takes 13 frames to swing a sword, 17 frames if you hit a monster. After these 13/17 frames, you can hold the sword out for an additional 6 or 7 frames (I can't remember which) and throw the boomerang at no cost, just like holding a sword out and throwing a boomerang. See my run for examples, I use it 3 times in all: 1. Boomerang room 2. Zelda room 3. Rat with key room May I ask which rat you killed? It's best to kill the one I did (example 3 of the boomerang trick). For the record, I spent all night with that room, trying to get the rat with the key to come to the right as much as possible. What matters is your position when throwing the boomerang, don't bother trying to kill the rat as quick as possible. Although you don't want the rat to stop half way while coming to you. You can turn off transparency to see in the dark, if you didn't know already.
Posted: 9/9/2006 6:22 AM
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dezbeast
Former player
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Oh, I only watched up to Zelda. I killed the rat in the same room that you damage boosted. It was right in my path so the only time wasted was with the slash and boomerang throw. I'm going to go ahead and try that boomerang trick. Does it matter just killing the rat that you did? Can't I just kill them both for more rupees? Or is it a waste of time?
Posted: 9/9/2006 9:05 AM
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OmnipotentEntity
He/Him
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2630
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8622#8622 This post is relivant. Sewer Rat drops are 5,1,5,20,5,1,5,5 So if you kill two you'll get 6 rupees, 3 you get 11, 4 you get 20. However, this resets when you do. So it's probably better just grabbing a quick 5 from the rats.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Posted: 9/9/2006 10:46 AM
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erokky
Former player
Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462
dezbeast: one thing you really underestimate is the flexibility of this game. Just because a rat is in your way, it does not mean you cannot get past it. My guess is that from entering that room, you either went straight up, or diagonal to the wall and had that rat block you. How about going in between those? I've noticed about rats in particular, they run on invisible tracks, and they never derail. In my opinion, it isn't worth sacrificing 26 frames for something that isn't hindering you. For example, if you can get past that room in x frame, then it's better to do that than x+26 frames. But if sacrificing 26 frames had help gain time, allowing you to leave the room earlier (sacrificing 26 frames to leave the room only 10 frames later than usual for example) then it may be worth it depending on the event. dezbeast, your run is great, no doubt about that, and in my opinion, you shouldn't emphasize on perfection as much as me (I don't mean to brag), because I'm obsoleting a run, where as you are creating a run, that's not to say you should go lazy though. Do set a high standard for the 100% ALTTP TAS. Edit: I forgot to say, getting hit may save 3-4 frames per use, but once you start beeping, YOU WILL LAG (5 frames per screen transition). Hence why I avoid the snake in the room with the key in the chest. Edit2: Excuse me, when I said this: After these 13/17 frames, you can hold the sword out for an additional 6 or 7 frames I only mean for when you hit a monster (17 frames), because, of course, you can hold the sword out for an unlimited amount of time by just swinging the sword without hitting anything.
Posted: 9/9/2006 4:08 PM
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dezbeast
Former player
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
That's some very practical info on the drop sequences. I'm going to definately put it to use. So I'll go ahead and skip that rat. While I'm at it I'm going to wobble diagonally up the steps in the Throne room. Never thought it would save that many frames.
Posted: 9/10/2006 2:22 PM
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erokky
Former player
Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462
I should tell you now, just before it's too late for you to realize. Getting hit may save you frames here and there, but once you defeat a boss, the game pauses to refill your life and magic, so in the long run, it's worse. But as for the first dungeon, it shouldn't matter, because you have an empty magic bar anyway, unless you manage to fill it up along the way. So for best results, always defeat a boss with as much life and magic as possible.
Posted: 9/10/2006 3:05 PM
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flagitious
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
erokky wrote:
Getting hit may save you frames here and there
please give credit where credit is due. also for dezbeast, note that it works best when hit at about a 45 degree angle.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 9/11/2006 2:52 PM
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dezbeast
Former player
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
I had to back track. It turns out that I can't get the red boomerang from the fat fairy. So I'm getting it from the Village of Outcasts. It's a good thing I tried it out before I got too far into the game.
Posted: 9/11/2006 3:30 PM
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erokky
Former player
Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462
I thought that was rather strange. I always believed it was impossible to get the magic boomerang from the fat fairy, until you said it was actually possible. I thought you had tested it yourself.
Posted: 9/11/2006 5:20 PM
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dezbeast
Former player
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Nope, I only determined how long it took Flag to get the other items. But I wish I did. Now I have to undo several days of work. I'm just going to get to Zelda and copy paste what I got so far and then fix all the parts where it desyncs.
Posted: 9/12/2006 6:18 PM
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erokky
Former player
Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462
Let me know when you've finished the Eastern Palace. I want to help plan the route.
Posted: 9/13/2006 3:41 AM
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dezbeast
Former player
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Sure thing, but it may take weeks before I make it that far since watching Flag's and your WIP has caused me to raise my standards quite a bit.
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