Topic by Tompa

Posted: 11/30/2008 4:05 PM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2141)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

500 for the flippers and 100 for the super bomb. So I need to collect 10 more rupees in the run.

Posted: 11/30/2008 6:46 PM

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Looking good. It was really fast to get that extra 300, would that have been faster than the rupee room even without the going through wall to get the hammer trick? When I fought against mothula in the original run, I was able to hit it with a spin attack once doing double damage. It was pretty early on in my attempt so I didn't save it, only later to realize that it is apparently impossible to hit it with a spin attack. I have tried a bunch to recreate it then and some more recently with no luck. It is possible I had messed up which save state is what remembering how many hits left on a state, but I was sure I had done it then. Mothula is kinda weird in that sometimes normal hits don't connect and I never figured out why. Anyways this address 7e0E50 is boss hp, it might help if you try to figure it out. If it seems impossible to hit with a spin attack don't waste too much time on it, I could have been wrong, I estimate 50% possible, 50% I am error.

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 11/30/2008 9:55 PM

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ZeXr0

Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883

Very nice !

Posted: 12/1/2008 1:34 PM

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Desbreko

Joined: 12/1/2008
Posts: 9

A while back while playing LttP, I also ran into the Mothula damage bug. After a couple hours of testing, it seemed like the Fire Rod was more likely to actually do damage than the sword, but I wasn't keeping too careful a watch over the numbers so that may just have been due to random chance. Other than that, I couldn't spot any sort of pattern to when hits would and wouldn't cause damage. Spin attacks with the lv.3 sword seemed to be completely ineffective and wouldn't even knock Mothula back. I never did find a way to hit with them. Spin attacks with the lv.2 sword would connect and have a chance to cause double damage as usual, though. I'd be very interested in seeing the cause of this bug tracked down. And not that it matters for this but, just for reference, the bug is fixed in the GBA version.

Posted: 12/3/2008 3:31 PM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2141)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

Flag: If the "hammer glitch" wasn't used, it would be faster to take the rupees in the basement while getting the key there. Taking the rupees in Thieves' Town cost me around 12 seconds, with the extra item switch and so on. About the boss; I'm going to see what I manage to do there. My plan was to start the fight with a double hit spin attack, as I thought it was easily possible as it is with most enemies. But that can not always damage him was new to me. Thanks for pointing that out and thanks for the memory address. I guess I should start using that for other bosses as well. Helmasaur King was an example where it could have been useful, for the mask. Thanks for your feedback at least. That is pretty much what keeps me TAS this :) (It helps at least!).

Posted: 12/5/2008 1:16 AM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

Cool cool, anyways not sure that it is the boss hp for all bosses, just assumed it is since it was for mothula. The fact that helmasaur and other bosses have separate entities made me realize that it could be a false assumption. I could try to find some other useful memory addresses although I can't think of any besides link's xy coordinates, do you have those already?

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 12/5/2008 3:37 AM

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Desbreko

Joined: 12/1/2008
Posts: 9

These are all used for boss HP: 7E0E50 7E0E51 7E0E52 7E0E53 7E0E54 7E0E55 7E0E56 7E0E57 7E0E58 7E0E59 7E0E5A 7E0E5B 7E0E5C 7E0E5D Most bosses only use 7E0E50, but for ones with multiple parts that can be damaged separately each part will use one of the other addresses.

Posted: 12/6/2008 9:42 PM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2141)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

Thanks for the addresses, Flag and Des. I've finished the third dungeon now at least. SMV I manage to get a double hit in the end of the boss fight... I haven't really got an idea how it happened, but I was never able to do it earlier in the fight. One idea is that the boss got hit from the spikes on both the top and the left. But I was never able to do it in any different way than shown in the movie. Oh well, enjoy I guess.

Posted: 12/7/2008 1:52 AM

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dezbeast

Former player

Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States

Wow, you are working on this game at quite a blistering pace considering how much emphasis your putting on quality. I shall check it out in the morning.

Posted: 12/8/2008 8:03 AM

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Desbreko

Joined: 12/1/2008
Posts: 9

I've encountered double hits like that while playing in real time as well, but while using the Fire Rod. After doing some testing, I think I figured out how it works. First, I believe 7E0EF0 is the address for Mothula's invincibility timer. Upon damaging Mothula, its value changes to 31 and counts back down to 0 with each frame, at which point Mothula is vulnerable again. (Incidentally, this is also the same for 7E0C6C, which is the Fire Rod's hit box timer for when its shot strikes an object. So, normally, the Fire Rod's residual flames wouldn't be able to hit Mothula after the shot impacts because they'd disappear on the same frame that Mothula is able to be damaged again.) However, if Mothula gets knocked into a spike trap, it instantly resets the value to 0 and allows Mothula to be damaged again. Most of the time the damage knockback will push Mothula away from the attack hit box and keep it from getting damaged twice, but if Mothula bounces off the spike trap just right it will run back into the attack and be damaged a second time.

Posted: 12/8/2008 3:08 PM

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dave_dfwm

Active player (250)

Joined: 7/30/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Alefgard, USA

While I've been pretty quiet in this forum, I have been watching these WIPs with great interest. The run looks amazing so far. In level 7 (turtle rock), will you wobble across the large pits? Or will that make the game "too-glitched"? Where do you draw the line at what glitches you can use in the full run?

Posted: 12/8/2008 5:36 PM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2141)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

Des: Alright! That was some interesting information. I kinda doubt that I'm able to get two double hits though. Or do you think this is possible? If it is, I'll redo some. Dave: It's nothing wrong with using that glitch. I'm not using glitches which will make me walk in walls. Edit: Also... I just got the Quake Medallion. But when I'm using the mirror, it takes me 32 frames longer to get to the light world than it did for Flag. I believe it's the same thing that happened in the end of PoD, when using the teleporter. But that didn't cost me near as much... Flag: Do you know why it happens? Or someone else perhaps :/.

Posted: 12/8/2008 7:01 PM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

I don't know why it happens, I never even noticed differences in time it took to warp when I did my TAS. On mothula, glad you could kill it faster than straight 4 hits even if it wasn't spin attack. Also Desbreko firerod probably isn't viable because it does half the damage of the sword, but maybe if it were possible to get your double hits to be triple or more then that could be sweet.

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 12/8/2008 7:41 PM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2141)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

It takes a very long time to refill the mana afterwards, so I dobut it will be worth it anyway...

Posted: 12/8/2008 8:52 PM

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

About the mirror problem, it sounds like a frame rule thingy, especially since it's 32=2^5 frames slower. If you use the mirror 1 frame later, does it take the same time to use? What happens if you use it, say, 16 frames later? Another possible cause of the problem is that there are more sprites in the RAM memory in your case compared to the published run, and that's why it takes longer to load. You might want to test if it loads faster if there are no sprites at all on screen when you're using the mirror.

My own page on this site.

Posted: 12/8/2008 9:03 PM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2141)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

I thought it was some frame rule... But I tried to delay for several frames, up to 20, but that just makes it 20 frames slower. I'm having the same amount of sprites as Flag's run. Same thing with the teleporter in PoD. I've tried to delay the frame I enter the screen as well, along with a lot of other stuff. Nothing seems to do anything.

Posted: 12/9/2008 1:34 AM

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Desbreko

Joined: 12/1/2008
Posts: 9

Tompa: I don't know how to do the trick that makes the sword cause full damage while holding it out rather than swinging it, so I haven't been able to confirm for myself whether it can be done faster. But by staying a little farther up towards the top of the room than in your WIP, so that Mothula got bounced back into my sword immediately after having its invincibility canceled on the spike traps, I've managed to score four hits in quick succession. flagitious: Yeah, I know the Fire Rod wouldn't be useful in the TAS, I was just using it for my testing of the invincibility timer. You'd obviously want to use the sword in the actual run since it does more damage. And three-hit combos are possible with the Fire Rod, but the only time I've managed it is when I've pinned Mothula into a corner while there are also some other moving spike traps around it. It is pretty sweet when it happens but it still wouldn't be practical in a TAS. Edit: Scratch that, I figured out the full damage sword trick (kind of, anyway) and made an SMV of the fight. I have zero experience with TASing, so it's not optimized at all, but it's still 8 frames faster than the fight in the WIP: SMV link

Posted: 12/9/2008 2:04 PM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2141)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

Des: Very nice there! I'll redo some of the run to make the boss fight faster. Hopefully this will later on fix the issue with the mirror later on...

Posted: 12/14/2008 12:05 PM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2141)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1674015873/ALttP-WIP-DarkForest.smv That's how fast I'm able to kill it... Around 40 frames faster than my previous version. But the problem here is that I'm not getting the heart at once because Mothula is too high. I have been trying to kill it both from the right and left instead, but I have yet not been able to do it as fast. If someone could help me out, it would be nice as I can't stand this anymore =P.

Posted: 12/14/2008 2:28 PM

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dezbeast

Former player

Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States

Has it ever occurred to you that you may only be able to get it 40 frames faster when the boss is that high? How about settling for something less and making him go lower? It just might be the best way.

Posted: 12/14/2008 2:31 PM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2141)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

The second earliest time to hit him, according to my tests, is 8 frames faster than my previous version and that's what Des showed in his fight... So I'm going to keep trying until I either make it or am sure that's impossible.

Posted: 12/15/2008 7:23 AM

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Desbreko

Joined: 12/1/2008
Posts: 9

I have an idea but I'm not sure if it'll work. I haven't been able to pull it off because the positioning has to be incredibly precise to even hit Mothula this way rather than getting hit yourself. I've gotten two good hits in but could never get Mothula to move the right way for the third and fourth... Anyway, could you hold your sword out to the left or right but stand diagonally down from Mothula so that you'd hit it with the edge of the sword, instead of the tip, and still knock it upwards into the spike traps for the first three hits, then poke it straight from the side for the fourth hit? It seems like you might be able to get the first three hits at the same speed that way and then only have to delay the fourth hit a few frames to keep Mothula from being too high when it dies.

Posted: 12/17/2008 7:11 PM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

I saw this vid on youtube, the people at the gamefaqs board found a way to kill ganon without the silver arrows. It is to basically hit him with the sword right before he starts to teleport away. If used, it could impact route choices since they big bomb could be skipped (and even getting your sword tempered, although that may still be worth it).

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 12/18/2008 12:16 AM

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DRybes

Joined: 1/17/2008
Posts: 133

flagitious wrote:

I saw this vid on youtube, the people at the gamefaqs board found a way to kill ganon without the silver arrows. It is to basically hit him with the sword right before he starts to teleport away. If used, it could impact route choices since they big bomb could be skipped (and even getting your sword tempered, although that may still be worth it).

Hmm. Well, the tempered sword is worth its upgrade time for the extra damage it does, but skipping the golden sword (not sure if you get it anyway) and silver arrows would be nifty (assuming it saves time vs. killing ganon the normal way). Also means you wont need to collect any more rupees.

Posted: 12/18/2008 1:12 AM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

Well true, but what I meant was that the tempered sword could already have been skipped, but now you could skip saving the smithy too, possibly making it worth while (although I would guess not).

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}