Topic by superbacon

Posted: 12/18/2008 5:59 AM

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superbacon

Joined: 4/28/2007
Posts: 20

flagitious wrote:

I saw this vid on youtube, the people at the gamefaqs board found a way to kill ganon without the silver arrows. It is to basically hit him with the sword right before he starts to teleport away. If used, it could impact route choices since they big bomb could be skipped (and even getting your sword tempered, although that may still be worth it).

Heh, that's part of radblast's 3 Heart Run that I uploaded for him. He's the one who discovered the method of beating Ganon without Silver Arrows, and he presented his findings in the SNES LTTP boards on GameFAQs. It's good that this discovery is getting some attention from the LTTP TAS community, though.

Posted: 12/18/2008 6:56 PM

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Tompa

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I just did some tests against Ganon using only the Master Sword. Ganon has 255 HP. The Master Swords does 4 hp in damage. When Ganon has less than 210 (Or something close to that number...) he will start making the bats appear and when the hp is 160, he will start breaking the floor. (And as you can only damage him with Spin Attack, 24 spin attacks are needed.) Once this happens his hp gets down to 100 and goes back up to 100 after each hit until the four sides are broken. He's hp is now 96 and you can only hit him during two frames when he's teleporting away, and still: only spinattacks. This means 24 spin attacks in total once again. You can't hit him if the torches aren't lit. They will lit for 520 frames until you have to light them again. During that time you will only be able to hit Ganon twice. Only the last half of the boss will take an extra time of around 1½ minute the first half won't be as slow, but probably a minute at least. Other things that will be slower in the run is killing a lot of enemies and bosses, which will add at least 30 seconds, most likely more. So let's be easy and say a 3 minutes loss. Skipping the Super Bomb saves around 5500 frames and not saving the smith will save around 4000, 9500 in total (2 minutes and 38 seconds). If I haven't missed something obvious here... I'm saying that it will be slower to not upgrade the sword.

Posted: 12/18/2008 7:02 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Your calculation was done with the Master Sword (level-2), but how much of a difference does the level-3 or level-4 sword make? In other words, would it be worthwhile to only temper the sword, and skip the super bomb? Or am I misunderstanding your analysis?

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Posted: 12/18/2008 7:03 PM

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Tompa

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I don't remember how much damage the tempered sword will do... But I know that you have to use spin attacks at least. I can't be bothered to play up to Ganon that way to test ;D.

Posted: 12/18/2008 10:06 PM

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OmnipotentEntity

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Tompa, there's a link in this thread that has a collection of save states, it's useful. [edit]http://www.mediafire.com/?6myzymywggm there they are, if they're still there. [edit2]and they aren't, just ignore me. :D

Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.

Posted: 12/19/2008 2:29 AM

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flagitious

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Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

superbacon wrote:

Heh, that's part of radblast's 3 Heart Run that I uploaded for him. He's the one who discovered the method of beating Ganon without Silver Arrows, and he presented his findings in the SNES LTTP boards on GameFAQs. It's good that this discovery is getting some attention from the LTTP TAS community, though.

Hey, and it is also good that someone from gfaqs is following the tas efforts. Although I bet if the trick ends up saving time tompa is going to wish you spoke up sooner! Tompa, after your analysis it is safe to say sticking with the master sword is definitely slower. But maybe sticking with the tempered sword and skipping the silver arrows may still be faster. The first three forms of ganon will be about the same speed (only the first might take longer). The last form takes radblast about 1:20 to do, but he isn't tasing it (and he could have used the glitch where you only have to light one torch each time). Pendant bosses in ganon's tower will be slower and require more arrows to kill, and the turtle rock boss will be a little slower too. There might be some additional time saved by changing dark world dungeon order since crystal 2 wouldn't need to be done so late to end up where super bomb is bought. I am going to make a WIP for a bug run using a new route that is different than radblast's, it will mostly be sloppy, but I'll try to make the ganon fight decent so we can get a better estimation of how long that will take. Also I saw this post by assassin17 that explains the mothula damage bug. I have not fully understood it yet. I still have hope that a spin attack can be used on mothula :). http://www.gamespot.com/snes/rpg/legendofzeldaalinkttp/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-43959744&pid=588436

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 12/19/2008 4:33 AM

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flagitious

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Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

Ok made the wip for a bug run with killing ganon. The ganon fight is not totally optimized, and its about 50 seconds slower than the published tas, but without golden sword and silver arrows. Your estimate of 1:30 savings skipping super bomb and 30 seconds penalty on other various things makes it close (although I think that estimate was for lvl 2 sword?). http://golfscript.com/temp/bug2.smv

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 12/19/2008 6:56 AM

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Tompa

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Oh Oh... I was so sure that you could only damage Ganon with spin attacks with the Tempered Sword. That means the fight won't be that slow afterall. And I didn't know about that you only had to light one of the torches. This sure change some. Four enemeis in Turtle's Rock will take longer to kill, those orange jumping things with "4 heads"... I won't have enough time to kill each of Trinexx's heads in only one round (I think...) and the last phase will be slower as well. Wasting more mana against the boss will result in a longer time to refill it, around 20 frames extra and around 200 to kill the heads and Trinexx. Some frames will be lost on the way to Ganon's Tower as, IIRC, you can't run through the "dogs" using the Tempered Sword For Ganon's Tower, the Lamolas fight will be around 30 frames slower and the Armos Knights fight will take 200 frames longer. I'll also need around 25 (12 more for Armos, 6 more for Lamolas and a few more to kill enemies in the dungeon) more arrows to be used in the dungeon, which I've certainly not planned out and have no idea where I should get them. Like 8 enemies in the dungeon will take longer to kill. Up to 100 frames or something. Taking the 50 seconds (3000 frames) slower Ganon fight will end up in having around 2200 frames left. 200+20+30+200+100=550 and also at least 50 to get the arrows needed. So 10 seconds. If my calculations are correct, it should be faster to skip the bomb afterall.

Posted: 12/19/2008 3:27 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Plus, y'know, there's the coolness factor of beating a Zelda game without using the plot-required special arrows. :)

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 12/19/2008 5:38 PM

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DRybes

Joined: 1/17/2008
Posts: 133

Heh, this is excellent. and don't forget the (small amount of) time you save not collecting those extra rupees to buy the bomb now. But the tempered sword still seems like it's worth it, if it does in fact cost ~4000 frames (a bit over a minute). I'm assuming it does at least master*1.5 damage in making that claim.

Posted: 12/20/2008 10:06 PM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

A while back, I think erokky had decided it was faster to not get the gold sword (even while getting the silver arrows), because the ganon fight can still be just about as fast. If this would save 10 seconds over the gold sword then it would really make deciding the fastest route difficult (sorry to complicate). Also one other note, I said my ganon fight was 50 seconds slower than published tas, but you'll have pegasus boots, the firerod, and better precision.

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 12/21/2008 9:59 AM

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Tompa

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Yeah, I know that my fight won't be so much as 50 seconds slower... I just took that number so I had something to compare with. Anyway... With this new route that's going to be used, I'll need 20 more arrows. I could get some of them earlier in the run without losing a lot of time. My rupee route could also have been improved, as well as the bomb route. Counting that and the other improvements I know in the run, I'm considering a redo. Main reason is that the run will look unplanned, which I don't think look so nice. Thoughts?

Posted: 12/21/2008 3:22 PM

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juef

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Posts: 205
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I have no TAS knowledge at all, but I was watching your WIPs and wondering... When getting the Titan's mitt, you smash that thing with the hammer that's the closest to you, then get the treasure. Could it possibly be a little faster if you smash the one just below (to which you can get by walking diagonally) and get the treasure then? Because once you've smashed the middle one, I believe you had to walk down, then left a little... Yeah, I'm probably seeing things but you know, if I'm wrong, at least I'll have learned something... :)

Posted: 12/21/2008 3:25 PM

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Tompa

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I smash the upper one because I can start running earlier. If I smash the lower one I will hit the wall when running to the door.

Posted: 12/21/2008 6:00 PM

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flagitious

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Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

I redid the test ganon fight, it turns out that the first phase can be done just as fast with tempered sword, and the final phase can be done within 25 seconds the speed of having silver arrows (timing from end of ganon's darkness dialog). I did not do any luck manipulation, which could speed it up some more by making ganon take less time to teleport, and possibly getting 4 hits per light instead of 3 (I was only about 25 frames too slow to do this one of the times). http://golfscript.com/temp/ganonnobow.smv Tompa, I started making a bug run (fastest time to kill ganon, anything goes), and I now fully appreciate how much precision you have in your run. I would not redo the run unless it would result in large time savings due to the amount of effort required for your precision.

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 12/21/2008 8:17 PM

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juef

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Thanks for the response Tompa. Awesome run so far, by the way!

Posted: 12/22/2008 2:25 AM

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snorlax

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I think you should restart only because you've been making progress pretty rapidly. If you think there's a significant enough savings available (more than just a couple frames), you should restart because you seem to have the motivation to do it. I bet you'll still finish by the end of January anyway, while some people take years to make one TAS.

Posted: 12/22/2008 6:18 AM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

Here is a new trick I discovered on accident while trying to pixel port, it allows you to walk down stairs diagonally, in the example shown it saves about 10 frames. It can also be used to go left. http://golfscript.com/temp/diagonalstairs2.smv Also here is a use for that glitch tompa discovered which doesn't make Link invisible and saves some time. http://golfscript.com/temp/tompastrick.smv

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 12/22/2008 6:22 AM

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Nitrodon

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I have to ask: In that Ganon battle, why didn't the torch on the right go out?

Posted: 12/22/2008 6:30 AM

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OmnipotentEntity

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flagitious wrote:

Here is a new trick I discovered on accident while trying to pixel port, it allows you to walk down stairs diagonally, in the example shown it saves about 10 frames. It can also be used to go left. http://golfscript.com/temp/diagonalstairs2.smv

It seems like that works on the same principle that going up the stairs diagonally does, but, how does one go left?

Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.

Posted: 12/22/2008 6:43 AM

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flagitious

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Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

Nitrodon, if you light the first torch before the second goes out, the second never goes out. Omni, the same thing but skip the two frames that are up+left+right, left+down. I don't know if it is possible to use this for other stair orientations.

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 12/22/2008 9:39 AM

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Tompa

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Flag: Oh, nice there. I never gave that a thought! About the second trick; I tried to do that during an attempt to beat my EG run. But it turned out that it was slower in the end, don't really know where I lost frames... But alright, I'm going to redo the run at least. Rupee route: As I don't need the 100 to get the super bomb, should the rupee route be different in any way? I don't know of a faster way of getting the rupees I need at least. But it will make me have 90 rupees too much in the end. Bomb route: It will be the same, except that I don't pick up the bomb in Hera's Tower. Arrow route: I will need at least 21 more to be used in Ganon's Tower. 12 for Armos Knights, 9 for Lanmolas (Forgot that they take 4 arrows to kill, not 3...), however... A slash with the tempered sword does just as much damage, but it can cause some lag during the fight. Places where I could get them: Blind's Hideout. I could get an arrow drop by killing some of the enemies in my way. A few of them can be killed without losing any time. After Titan's Mitt, Flag picked up a jar with arrows in it. I didn't in my current run because it wouldn't be neccesary. But in this case, it will be. Svamp Palace: First off, the arrows Flag is taking in his run. And also after walking through the waterfall, there is a jar there which contains arrows. *If I take those arrows mentioned, I'll have 22 or 27, don't remember, at this point* Turtle's Rock: In the beginning, I can get an arrow drop by having killed the right amount of enemies in Svamp Palace first. Those orange jumping things... The 8th head will drop 10 arrows. I'm killing 4 of those in the run, two which have a key, 13 head in total. Should be possible to get some arrows from it later on. Having 25 arrows at the start of Ganon's Tower is enough, as I can get 5 arrows before Armos Knight without losing much, if anything. 18 arrows used at the knights and 12 more to go. 8 arrows, 4 left, to kill the red enemies who shoot fire. Should be able to get a 10 arrows refill from them. Having 14 left. A jar in a coming room contains 5 arrows which Flag used to kill enemies in the rooms, I'll be needing 6 to kill the same enemies. 13 left. 12 used to kill Lanmolas, 1 left and no more arrows are needed in the run. The question is how the arrow route is going to look before Ganon's Tower. Are there any good places to get arrows before the Dark World?

Posted: 12/22/2008 3:54 PM

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flagitious

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For rupees a couple things to try are the money making game in lost woods, archery thing in dark world town (if you hit all last gives 99). Another route to consider is doing 2nd crystal palace early since it doesn't save time to end up near the bomb shop, but it is on the way to the flute, this would require getting earlier flippers and earlier rupees (maybe from 300 in sewers). I would guess that current rupee route is going to be the fastest but those are just some other things to consider. For arrows, don't forget to factor in that you no longer need 4 for the ganon fight :) (sorry if you did already, didn't see it anywhere). Also for Lanmolas I think a spin attack would be faster if you can hit them all twice with same swing. Possibly some sort of herding + spin attack could be fast for armos knights battle too. I don't really remember all the places arrows are needed for regular enemies, but one thing comes to mind and that is I think some can be hit into spikes maybe to kill them fast without arrows.

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 12/24/2008 7:11 PM

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dezbeast

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Joined: 3/10/2006
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That's too bad that you decided to redo your whole run, Tompa. Personally I think you should just continue on. You put just too much work into this. Hey flag, I'm very happy to know that you started on an all glitches allowed kill Ganon run. I was wondering if you actually planned out a route for that and if you have any idea how long the run will be.

Posted: 12/24/2008 9:54 PM

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Tompa

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It's not going to take too long if I just work on the run :). Haven't had much time to work on it these days though. But I'm soon in Hyrule Castle. It will also take less that time I know what to do. I'll just hope that the manipulation is on my side (I hate the Eastern Palace so much...). I don't mind putting a lot of effort in the making. I haven't really got anything better to do anyway... When do you guys want a new WIP? As it won't really be anything new the next 40 minutes...