snorlax
He/Him
Joined: 5/20/2007
Posts: 174
Location: Wisconsin
There were two incredible parts. I can't believe you actually used Death Mountain Descent in a route. Hard to believe that's the fastest way, but it would be fun if it is. Also, I've never seen the jump out of the water glitch before. Is that where the other bottle is? Maybe that can be worked in there. Really looking forward to this run.
Joined: 10/28/2004
Posts: 39
regarding quickly defeating Mothula with the spin attack by relying on the spikes... how does it work? by my understanding (see my topic here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=588436&topic=43959744), if Mothula knocks into a stationary spiked block quickly enough after being "damaged" by one of Link's attacks, the 0 damage inflicted by the block will replace the queued damage, thus making Mothula take no damage. i don't follow how this works in the player's favor. are you saying that you somehow get Mothula to hit the spiked block *after* the queued damage is inflicted (and thus it can't be overwritten), but *before* his invincibility timer wears down? that would require some crazy precision, if it's even possible. also, what's the most times a given spin attack can contact Mothula? is it more than 2? see, i would have thought that this strategy would fail because: - Link traps Mothula by stationary spiked blocks - Link whacks Mothula with spin attack, damage is queued - Mothula is knocked into stationary spiked block, queued damage is zeroed, and invincibility timer is cleared - Mothula bounces back toward Link - follow-through of spin attack hits Mothula again, and damage is queued again - Mothula is knocked into a stationary spiked block again, so damage is once again zeroed along with invincibility timer obviously, if it's succeeding, i'm failing to follow something. how close is Mothula to the spiked block (the one he eventually hits) when Link first unleashes the spin attack? thanks.
Joined: 12/1/2008
Posts: 9
Assassin wrote:
i don't follow how this works in the player's favor. are you saying that you somehow get Mothula to hit the spiked block *after* the queued damage is inflicted (and thus it can't be overwritten), but *before* his invincibility timer wears down? that would require some crazy precision, if it's even possible.
That's basically it, yeah. You hit Mothula, it takes damage, bounces off the spike traps and cancels the invincibility, and ends up right back on top of your sword to get hit again. It does require really fine precision but frame advance and re-records make it possible.
Joined: 10/28/2004
Posts: 39
ok.. i'm still curious about this:
me wrote:
how close is Mothula to the spiked block (the one he eventually hits) when Link first unleashes the spin attack?
(or if it's not a spin attack, then when Link first swings his sword.) i suspect that if Mothula is very close to the block to start, then it hitting the block will not only cancel Mothula's invincibility timer, but also cancel the damage it was going to receive from the strike. did you observe this at all?
Joined: 12/1/2008
Posts: 9
Assassin wrote:
ok.. i'm still curious about this:
me wrote:
how close is Mothula to the spiked block (the one he eventually hits) when Link first unleashes the spin attack?
(or if it's not a spin attack, then when Link first swings his sword.) i suspect that if Mothula is very close to the block to start, then it hitting the block will not only cancel Mothula's invincibility timer, but also cancel the damage it was going to receive from the strike. did you observe this at all?
I don't know offhand how close to the spikes Mothula starts out. You'd have to check the SMV, or maybe Tompa knows. But I think it can vary how far Mothula needs to be, depending on how much time is left in the current damage queue cycle. And yeah, if Mothula runs into the spikes immediately after being hit, the damage will get canceled. You can see that happen all the time while fighting Mothula in real-time. It's just that, in a tool-assisted environment, you can avoid letting that happen.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2142)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
When you hurt Mothula with a spinattack, using the lvl 2 sword, you aren't able to do a double hit at all. Mothula takes no damage from the spikes, he stops blinking but you are unable to hurt him at once with the same spin. Mothula is close at the spikes at the start, indeed. But you need to hit him from the side for him to hit the spikes afterwards, as there's a block behind which he will hit instead. Here's just a different way of killing him than I did in my run. After you hit Mothula, he hits the spikes and the damaging will be cancelled so he can be hit once again and directly after that he gets hit by the spikes, 8+8 damage, half of Mothula's HP. This done twice makes the battle very quick. SMV Mothula may look like it's flying, but I'm quite certain that all sprites are on the ground as there's no 3D in the game. The same goes with the Wall Masters. They can only grab you when they land, but you can hurt them all the way in the air. So that's basically why he can hit the spikes at all.
Joined: 12/1/2008
Posts: 9
Yeah, if you watch closely, Mothula can never actually fly above the spike traps on its own. The only time its shadow (the space that Mothula actually occupies on the floor) ever overlaps with a spike trap is when one of the traps is moving across the floor. If a trap is stationary, Mothula can't pass over it. Also, I'd think it would be necessary for Mothula to be on the same plane as the traps just for Link to be able to fight it. In every other instance of things being at different elevations that I know of, Link can't directly interact with objects on the other plane.
Joined: 10/28/2004
Posts: 39
thanks both for the replies. do you know how many frames are in the damage queue cycle? when testing this stuff a year ago using frame advance in the emulator, i may've gotten a basic idea by observing how long the spike hit followed after the initial damage (and whether it replaced it or not), but i didn't get an exact count, and i wouldn't remember anyway.
snorlax
He/Him
Joined: 5/20/2007
Posts: 174
Location: Wisconsin
Tompa, are you working on this run then? How's it coming?
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2142)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Well, I haven't really started it yet... I'm working on my 5th attempt to improve the glitched run. But three frames are lost because of the frame rules, so no success there. But I'll start the run soon.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2142)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Anyway, the run has started and I'm 16 frames ahead up to the stairs to B1 in the castle. I'm going to, once again, ask what the decision will be with the Stairs Glitch. See page 45 for more info... Usually, the only side effect is that Link will be invisible in the first room. If Zelda's with Link, she will be invisble for the whole floor. But as Tower of Hera is mostly one room/floor, Link will be invisble through most of the dungeon. Stairs of the kind that leads to the Throne Room works a bit different though. They won't make Link invisble, instead they'll freeze the camera until you enter the next room. With a few sideeffect to it. SMV I personally think that I shall skip this.
Player (58)
Joined: 7/7/2008
Posts: 872
Location: Utah
Whatever, I have no interest to see Link or Zelda invisible. :P
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
Yeah me too, unless it saves a lot of frames, but I don't think that's the case.
Player (70)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Captain Forehead wrote:
Whatever, I have no interest to see Link or Zelda invisible. :P
Per definition you won't see them, since they are invicible. :D
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
Highness wrote:
Captain Forehead wrote:
Whatever, I have no interest to see Link or Zelda invisible. :P
Per definition you won't see them, since they are invicible. :D
Haha good one :P
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2142)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Well, I won't use that glitch at all *yay*. I guess I can show you a WIP once the Light World is finished :).
Player (58)
Joined: 7/7/2008
Posts: 872
Location: Utah
More *yay*!
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2142)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
... Or else I could just upload a little WIP now instead. I'm having problem with the room where this ends, stupid snakes. I simply can't make them be out of my way :(.
Former player
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Ha ha, I liked how you did a variety of different wobbles. That makes your run look more interesting IMO. I recommend that you continue to do that. About the area with the snakes, I wouldn't count on finding the desired setup. It would literally be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. It's also quite possible that the only way to make the snakes not be in your way is to sacrifice more time than you would save.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2142)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I tried to delay up to like 100 frames without any success. I managed to get all but one out of the way without losing anything however, but that doesn't help much :/. I didn't manage to walk diagonally up two of the stairs without charging my sword first, not sure if it's possible or not. It still saves a lot to do it that way.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2142)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
.
Active player (353)
Joined: 1/16/2008
Posts: 358
Location: The Netherlands
Sweet :D the diagonal stairs de-/descend look cool :) Keep going!
TASes: [URL=http://tasvideos.org/Movies-298up-Obs.html]Mr. Nutz (SNES), Young Merlin 100% (SNES), Animaniacs 100% (SNES)[/URL]
Former player
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
I can't believe none of the snakes were in your way. That's great. How did you manage that? Also, did you improve the battle with the knights? I remember the best I could do was 5 frames slower than erokky's before I decided to copy paste what he had.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2142)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I spend about two weeks to manipulate the snakes. But I'm not satisfied with it. I managed to get pretty much perfect manipulation but accidently rerecorded it because of my stupid keyboard. And I tried like crazy to achieve that time again, 2-3 frames faster than this, but I failed :/. Last time I battled the knights I killed them about 4 frames faster using another method. But the last knight died too high up so I couldn't obtain the heart at once. I didn't try as much this time but couldn't manage to find anything better, so Erokky is the man <3.
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 748
Tompa wrote:
Progress: Do you really care? Then simply ask...
So just asking... how is it going?