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Posted: 7/6/2004 9:00 PM
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flagitious
Player (200)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Glad to hear you are trying this game. It looks like you are off to a good start in the light world, but the real fun starts in the dark world. Also 31:23 is a good time but remember the timing listed under tg is from the time you start the file until you can move when you are in the dark world. So that means its counting the intial speach plus death sequence + that annoying guy talking. I since have preformed a faster time than what is listed under tg but your light world time is still about 15 seconds faster. I think I could go faster if I repeated the light world but I get a little rusty on it playing through the whole game. Also I'm not really playing this game any more but I just decided I'd try to look around and see what's up. I will definitly have to play again if my time gets beat :). I guess I am too late to dl the light world run you had, link broken now :(. Anyways are you continuing your speed run or working on a time attack since the rerecord snes9x is out? (It is out isn't it? I haven't been following). Good luck on your quest.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 7/7/2004 12:44 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
He's working on a no save DKC speed run now, but after he's done with that he plans on doing a speed run for ALttP.
Posted: 7/7/2004 4:38 AM
(Edited: 8/16/2021 9:53 AM)
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Deviance
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
Posted: 7/8/2004 1:59 PM
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TSA
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 186
Yeah, I'm doing my AoL run this weekend in between beating some of SnapDragon's FSA times. I've gotten way too many requests recently to get a better ALttP time. Since I'm going to get the LoZ/AoL WRs and am sending the tapes to TG, I guess I'll do ALttP before I go home. We've nailed down a pretty solid route now, and my fighting has gotten far better since earlier this year. The target goal for myself is 1:39-1:41. I think anything sub 1:40 will be pretty unbeatable.
Posted: 7/12/2004 7:09 PM
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flagitious
Player (200)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
I just downloaded the snes9x rerecord thing from http://www.lysator.liu.se/snes9x/. It appears to work well. Anyways I have never done a time attack before but it looks fun and challenging. I'm thinking about trying my luck in a time attack with this game, since it is the game I know best. Alright so I don't know what rules are normally used but in this game you can use save-quit in several places to warp when you reload the file. In total this will save about 3 minutes. Should this be allowed? Under tg rules it is not. Personally I think it should be allowed. Also note the game does not physically reset to do this, and the initial start up screen can be bypassed. I don't really remember the fastest route with saves because it has been so long since I used them. Also there are some serious glitches that would ruin this game: Death mountain decent (lets you skip most of the first world) Exploration glitch(many cannot be done on actual console, this would allow you to skip the whole game pretty much) Levitation glitch(lets you float over nothing, can't be done on console) I think all of this would be lame and shouldn't be used. But there are many small glitches that save time without skipping portions of the game I will try to find as many as I can and use them. Also I feel kinda bad in that if I make this my record for the speed run could be beaten more easily. On my computer I have a lttp run that is 1:43 that I have never shown anyone. In this run a glitch with the stalfos knights cost be over a minute. (note I was not trying to exploit a glitch it was just bad luck, now I understand why it happened and actually know a way to use it to my advantage by about 5 seconds). I never felt a need to publish it because 1:47 record still stands. So I don't play to have a record, I play for a challenge so I think I will make this time attack. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated and if you guys want to work together on this that would be great.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 7/12/2004 8:16 PM
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TSA
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 186
You can beat the game in just over 3 mins with the Explorer Glitch on a real SNES.
Posted: 7/12/2004 8:49 PM
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flagitious
Player (200)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
well yeah if you take apart your control, but i wouldnt count that as on the real snes, because then where do you draw the line on tampering? anyways more questions: It seems like item randomness could be exploited alot to get tons of ruppies but this would be very tedius, not sure how much should be done. Also it might be faster to die in couple of places. Should it be allowed? Also what is the most reliable way to time stuff to see which is the faster of two methods? There might be an elegant way but I think I am going to have to resort to a stop watch + slow motion. I guess saving it as a small movie could help for timing.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 7/12/2004 8:52 PM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Death mountain decent (lets you skip most of the first world) Exploration glitch(many cannot be done on actual console, this would allow you to skip the whole game pretty much) Levitation glitch(lets you float over nothing, can't be done on console) Even though you aren't officially bound by any rules about how you play the game and are actually encouraged to look for any possible glitches to exploit, some glitches, such as the left+right glitch in Aol, would just ruin the whole game, so I think you should skip those glitches that you mentioned since it would make the movie less entertaining, but I think most of the smaller glitches, and also save/quit, should be used. Edit: It seems like item randomness could be exploited alot to get tons of ruppies but this would be very tedius, not sure how much should be done. Always exploit randomness as much as possible, you should keep killing each enemy over and over until it drops the correct item. Sometimes it's impossible to get it to drop the item you want, but whenever it is possible you should take advantage of it. Also it might be faster to die in couple of places. Should it be allowed? Some people on this site don't like the idea of using death as a shortcut, but I think it should be allowed. Also what is the most reliable way to time stuff to see which is the faster of two methods? First use the first strategy, and check the length of the smv, and then use the second strategy, and check the length of the smv again. Before trying the second strategy you should make a copy of the smv so if the first strategy is faster you won't have to do it over again.
Posted: 7/12/2004 9:19 PM
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Bob_Whoops
Former player
Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA
You can get an on screen frame count in snes9x by pressing the period button. This is much easier.
Posted: 7/12/2004 9:21 PM
(Edited: 8/16/2021 9:52 AM)
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Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
Posted: 7/12/2004 9:59 PM
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flagitious
Player (200)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Ok thanks for the tips. I'm still in planning mode because it will be alot different strategy used since I can exploit randomness and also use save quit. I will use the frame count method. As for dying you don't have to get hit alot waiting to die. You could get hit along the way in places where it will cost little to none time. I tried out slow motion for the first time its so funny, hearing the sounds. BTW I am using a crappy usb controller to play it makes it easier but still harder than the real snes controller. I would like to bind one of the buttons to the emulators pause. I don't see any built in ways to do this on the options. Anyone have a solution? If not than I might try my luck with a hex editor and see if I can change it that way.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 7/12/2004 10:01 PM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
wouldn't it also take some time to kill yourself when your life is (assumingly) maxed out? I can't imagine it would look very good getting hit consecutively to kill off Link. He could get hit in many places throughout the level where it either wouldn't waste him any time or would save him time, and once he needs to take the shortcut, getting killed will be very quick. Even if it did take a long time, if you can save even more time by taking the shortcut then it's worth it. I believe only non-teleportation glitches should be used. What about the glitch I used in 4-2 in SMB? Should that have been allowed?
Posted: 7/12/2004 10:21 PM
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Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
What about the glitch I used in 4-2 in SMB? Should that have been allowed?
I was referring only to ALttP: teleportation or moving outside the game's boundaries allow you to skip large portions of the game. In SMB it saves a few seconds.
As for dying you don't have to get hit alot waiting to die. You could get hit along the way in places where it will cost little to none time.
makes sense, guess I wasn't thinking. In that case, hits would have to be planned out well, as each one costs a half second delay or so. Do you have an idea of some places where you'll use death to save time?
Posted: 7/12/2004 10:35 PM
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flagitious
Player (200)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
A while back me and TSA discussed using it in the second pendant dungeon. It basically is only useful inside a dungeon when you dont have the mirror. Two places in this dungeon it might save time. The one that has the best chance is right after you get the big key and you have to make your way towards the big chest. I roughly timed it with a watch and it seems about equal so I will need to research this more later. Edit: so do you think it would be possible to never have to out of your way for ruppees by exploiting randomness? Not even going into the gambling shop. And I'm talking only killing monsters you have to but having them drop good.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 7/12/2004 11:11 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
as each one costs a half second delay or so Not if you get pushed in the direction that you want to go in. In LoZ, Sleepz sometimes got enemies to push him to get through rooms faster. Edit: so do you think it would be possible to never have to out of your way for ruppees by exploiting randomness? Not even going into the gambling shop. And I'm talking only killing monsters you have to but having them drop good. If you can get enough rupees from enemies then you won't have to play the gambling game as many times, but you'll have to compare them to see whether you lose or gain more time.
Posted: 7/13/2004 12:14 AM
(Edited: 7/13/2004 12:26 AM)
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flagitious
Player (200)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
well i just made it to sanctuary pretty close to optimal and went to watch the replay only to find that it got desycnhed about 2 minutes into it. I better read up on howto solve this problem edit: well turning the sound off on replay didnt help, so i guess i will have to record with no sound. Will replaying it with sound on then screw it up? btw it took me 21400 frames to get from the second you finish entering your name to the end of the screen shifting into sanctuary? how many frames is a second? are there 60 frames a second? That would make it a time of 5:57, but i dont know if that is right it takes me a min of 6:07 in a speed run and this is the most straight forward part of the game. also it took 364 rerecords. i guess i have to do it over again but that is ok since theres a little bit of room to improve.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 7/13/2004 12:25 AM
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Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
if you can get a few enemies to drop red rupees, you'll never have to gamble. I'm not sure how to abuse the randomness yet. Whether it depends on how you kill the enemy or when you kill the enemy, I'm not sure; some seem more predisposed to dropping red rupees though.
Not if you get pushed in the direction that you want to go in. In LoZ, Sleepz sometimes got enemies to push him to get through rooms faster.
it's harder to do in ALttP, but in my light world run, I was able to travel quite a bit getting hit by the statue sentry's ray in the Desert Palace.
Posted: 7/13/2004 12:31 AM
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flagitious
Player (200)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
oh are you working on a time attack for this or just speed run? because getting hit to move faster isn't something i would be crazy enough to try in a speed run. i used it a bit in getting to sanctuary fast. also i edited last post thinking it was still the last post otherwise i would have made a new one so incase you missed it, its there.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 7/13/2004 12:39 AM
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Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
oh are you working on a time attack for this or just speed run? because getting hit to move faster isn't something i would be crazy enough to try in a speed run.
I'm currently not working on this game, I was referring to the Light World Speedrun I did some time ago. I got hit by the ray by accident but it ended up helping me. My only intentional hit in that run was bombing myself to get the moon pearl.
Posted: 7/13/2004 9:23 PM
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TSA
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 186
Heh, I got to finish this AoL run soon so I can get to work on this. Although I won't be making any tool-assited runs, I am very interested in seeing what you guys turn out. Especially when you break it down and determine the fastest route. As long as you don't use gambling, I bet a human player could mimic the route.
Posted: 7/13/2004 9:36 PM
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Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
Although I won't be making any tool-assited runs
Emulators can be very useful in legit run training. Do a speedrun on an emulator and use the fewest amount of savestates as you can. That will tell you around the fastest time you would reach in a legit run with your current abilities if you do not make any mistakes. They also provide an easy means of practising difficult sections of games over and over without having to start from the beginning if you die or mess up.
Posted: 7/14/2004 3:22 AM
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flagitious
Player (200)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
I haven't played today but I will work on this more.
Emulators can be very useful in legit run training. Do a speedrun on an emulator and use the fewest amount of savestates as you can. That will tell you around the fastest time you would reach in a legit run with your current abilities if you do not make any mistakes.
That is one way to estimate. What I would sometimes do is right down the splits at places spaced around 5-10 minutes apart on my runs and then take the best of each part and add them up to estimate my theoretical no mistake run.
They also provide an easy means of practising difficult sect
Indeed I tried to use this method for practice. But I sucked with a keyboard pretty bad. I found it more useful for trying out new tricks than for increasing coordination.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 7/17/2004 7:47 PM
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flagitious
Player (200)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
I noticed that the longest of any other time attack was about an hour for zelda 2. The fastest I can imagine this game being done in is around 1:30:00. I don't know but it might be too big of an undertaking for my first time attack. Perhaps I should try another game first? Mario: Lost Levels would be fun. Also this game could get very complex in trying to do perfect. Like figuring out how many arrows/bombs/hearts/ruppeis are best to have at all points in the game. I know that on my first try no matter what there is going to be something that could be improved. Even if it is minor that would mean redoing the entire video from where ever the first flaw is. Since this is the longest game that would be a huge amount of time wasted. So my idea would be to make "beta" runs. Where they would not try to do everything perfect but instead go through and try to get the order right and try to get the correct number of ruppies/bombs etc. This would be a realistic approach like for example it wouldn't bother to ace scrolling through text or running from point a to point b as fast as possible. But it would accurately display route and strategy. Once this beta completed and I get feedback and feel I have the perfect strategy then I can go and try to do everything as fast as possible. Here are just few examples of why I feel planning the correct number of ruppies/bombs/arrows/hearts/order etc is so vital to perfection: In skull woods you have to use a bomb to get the firerod. Once you get the firerod you can use it to open next part of the dungeon. If you run out of bombs and you have a firerod then the firerod will be selected. Switching items takes a few seconds normally. So therefor if you plan out the number of bombs correctly meaning you enter with 2 bombs... Then you can use one bomb to get the firerod then waste another bomb so the firerod becomes selected saving you from having to switch. Another more versatile thing might be heart management. I haven't major testing yet but there are many places getting hit saves time. However if you get hit too much then you die. So you would have to be thinking way ahead to know where the best places to get hit are. I think these beta runs could help save alot of time in figuring out the best strategy. Let me know what you think. Also let me know if you think I should try another game first. Also sorry for such a long post I try to keep it condensed but I suck at writing.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Posted: 7/18/2004 2:45 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Yeah, a beta run sounds like a good idea especially for such a long game.
Posted: 7/18/2004 6:43 AM
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flagitious
Player (200)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Ok after a great deal of thought I have come up with what I think is the optimal route. First I will give the route outline and then I will explain it. --light world-- -get to sanctuary, get boomerang, and probably don't get heart container) -save quit -> start at link's house -p1 (first pendant place), do not get the 100 rupees -get boots, do not get 100 rupees here either -save quit -> link's house -get book -save quit -> link's house -p2 -save quit -> sanctuary -mirror -p3 -save quit -> sanctuary -master sword -save quit -> link's house -gannon --dark world-- -c1 (first crystal dungeon, -save quit -> link's house? -c4 -get 300 rupees -get tempered sword -c3 -save quit -> pyramid -quake -flippers -save quit -> link's house -c2 -ether -c6 -c5 -ice rod -save quit -> link's house -fat fairy -c7 -gannon's tower -final battle Again I really think this is optimal with save quits allowed and being able to get rupees by 'luck'. It is quite different that my route for a speed run. Here is my reasoning and explanation: Getting the boomerang. There are a few places it saves a small amount of time. Getting the heart container. If we find that getting hit can save time then this may pay off in the long run. I'm guessing it won't ever pay off, but hey who knows. Skipping the money in the first pendant place and where you get the boots. The first of these cost about 17 seconds. The next cost 12 seconds. Each is only 100 rupees. Later in the game there is a spot that takes 14 seconds which gives 300. Also with ability to get good monster drops I think we can get by without either of them. In a speed run I get the second one. Also incase anyone is wondering you need to get a total of 720 rupees. After the 3rd pendant dungeon you have two options. You can save quit and goto the master sword. Or you can not save quit and go there. If you use the second method it takes about 10 seconds longer but you go past the gambling store. The gambling store lets you net 200 rupees each time if you are 'lucky'. It takes about 15 seconds to stop your dash + go in + talk to guy + get the money and leave. I do not think it is worth it, but I will discuss later why it might be worth it. Also note if you use save quit and goto sanctuary and then go to the graveyard and get 300 rupees and save quit and goto sanctuary you will get 300 rupees in about 30 seconds. This is 5 seconds more than if you use the gambling option but you get 100 more rupees. But if you need even more rupees you could just do the gambling twice. In the first crystal dungeon I know have a route which beats the competition by 40 seconds. I am mentioning it even though this is an really an outer-world route because it also gets a customizable amount of rupees very fast. In the room with all of the blue rupees there is a key at the bottom, the route uses this key while most others route does not. So running down there and back will cost no time and get you 2 columns out of 6 rupees. Each column is 45 rupees. It takes about 4-5 seconds to get two columns. Depending on much money we can get at zero expense later we can adjust how much we get here. Incase you were wondering in a speed run I usually get about 4 columns total, trying to leave with around 265 rupees. Ok now for a hard decision. It is a good idea to get the flute next. However along the way to the flute we pass the 2nd crystal dungeon. By doing this dungeon now you save 25 seconds in the outer-world. But in order to do this you must have the flippers and to get those you need 500 rupees. BTW getting the flippers now using save quit to warp will take exactly the same amount of time as later. So there is a trade off getting money early (the good 300 spot is later) versus saving time in the outer-world and losing some in the dungeon due to the fact that your sword will be half as powerful as if you did it later. The only place it would save time is the boss. All those things you take off of him would take 1 hit instead of 2. And for the final form I kill him with 2 spins attacks. I am guessing it would take 4 normally. My best guess is that not having the sword will cost 15 seconds. It might be practical do due this dungeon now if we can get that money from randomness. It is a really close call. For now I will go with doing this dungeon later but case not closed. After getting link gets his sword tempered there is another hard decision. You can go directly to 3rd crystal palace or you save the 3rd crystal palace for later because having the cane of somaria (from the 6th) will save about 10 seconds. Actually this isn't a hard decision because I just found it takes 20 seconds longer to get to this dungeon later. My speed run method would do this later because this dungeon with the tricks I do is hard to pull off so having more hearts helps but this point is moot for time attack. Ok so after 3rd crystal we save quit to start at the pyramid of power. This is faster than using the flute to goto link's house and then running up to warp to the dark world. After you get the flippers you can save alot of time by using save quit instead of running out. Save quit will put you at link's house the best place to do 2nd crystal place from. After this we need to do 6th crystal, since we have to warp to light world to use flute to get there there is no time lost in using the flute to first get the ether which is needed now, I am just saying this incase you were wondering if it would be faster to do this sooner. After the 5th dungeon we get the ice rod. Now is the best time to do this and not sooner because you can save some time using save quit right after you get the ice rod and starting at link's house which is where you would just flute to next if you bother to walk out. From here the game is linear. Ok that took longer than I thought it did mainly because I started to consider 2nd crystal dungeon more of a viable option than I originally planned. Here would be the order if you did this dungeon early. c1 -> save quit -> pyramid -> quake -> flippers -> save quit -> c2 -> flute -> c4 -> c3 -> ether -> c6 -> c5 -> ice rod -> linear. Ok I would greatly appreciate everyone's thoughts because there are many ways of completing this game and I may have missed a good or awesome one. Edit: Having the tempered sword for this fight won't save more than 10 seconds. Doing 2nd crystal second is faster. To get the total of 610 rupees that early we will need to get a red rupee from almost every enemy possible and then get the extra coloumns of money in 1st crystal place.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
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