Topic by Dacicus

Posted: 8/28/2005 6:14 PM
(Edited: 9/19/2005 5:05 AM)

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (67)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1041

I just remembered a little trick that I found while playing through this game. It basically allows you to always hit the knights and the lizards. I found it useful against the knights because they can block your normal hits with their shields, but not this one. You jump, then do a crouching stab while in the air. It works best if you jump when you're pretty close to the enemy and continue moving toward them while stabbing in the air. It shouldn't be hard to perform with frame advance. I can upload a movie of this if you want to see it. I'm not quite sure if it would be any faster than normal fighting. In fact, it would be quite pointless if you have a way to get past the enemies without fighting them.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 8/28/2005 8:07 PM
(Edited: 8/28/2005 9:42 PM)

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

To adelikat: Thanks for pointing that out, if the glitch saves you the trouble of almost a minute of walking, then I believe that it's well worth it. Let me know if you find more uses for this glitch, please. I'm pretty sceptical to use glitches that allows you to skip major parts of the game in this movie, like the Zelda II run by Gigafrost. Not that I have anything against those glitches in general, it's just that the goal for this movie is to beat Zelda II without skipping any major event, if you know what I mean. Perhaps I'll do a super-quick run of Zelda II that abuses both the left+right technique plus the jump + fairy spell glitch after this movie is done. We'll just see about that. To Dacicus: Okay, just finished watching your .fcm. That technique will likely help out a lot, thanks a lot for telling me about it. I'm really happy that all of you have shared a lot of ideas and techniques for this game. It would be nice if I got some feedback on the WIP too. Emulator used: FCEU Ultra 0.98.12-blip ROM name: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link (U).nes Since that is just a testrun, please point out every little detail that you think should be changed, and I'll fix it for the final version.

My own page on this site.

Posted: 8/28/2005 8:41 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3598)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4738
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The .fcm file looks good so far. I can't wait to see death mountain! I don't see any errors. It would be nice if you didn't have to stop on the overworld map though. BTW, Do you plan on getting the candle? The fairy glitch can definately be used a couple of places in palace 3 & 4. I'll have to go back and figure out where it can save time. I was looking into it back before the 6min Zelda movie. Back before anybody knew it could be used to skip the entire game.

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Posted: 8/28/2005 8:57 PM

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

Well, it's good that you like the .fcm so far. I've spotted some minor stuff myself, and I think that the movie can be improved by at least 2-3 seconds by changing battle tactics some. And I agree with you that it would be nice if I didn't have to stop on the world map, however, I have tried to manipulate luck to make the enemies appear on different places, but the only way I found to manipulate luck is to stand still for a few seconds before they appear and then move. But since I have to wait about 5 seconds for this, it doesn't save any time at all compared to the short waiting periods I have right now. But, then again, it would be nice to skip those short pauses too. If I recall, you only need the candle to light up caves, you actually don't have to have the candle in order to beat the game. On thing that you could do is have one savestate where you have the candle, explore the dungeons with the candle and find out exactly where the enemies are, then do the run without the candle, knowing where the enemies are. And I appreciate that you take the time to check the fairy glitch out, adelikat. It gives me more time to focus on the run itself :) EDIT: I've decided to put this run on hold for some days, in order to do some serious planning but also a few calculations about movement and luck manipulation. One thing that will slow this run down quite a bit is that I can't upgrade attack on the first level up, like in Arc's run, therefor I'm going to have to use somewhat different tactics, perhaps even a different route. So don't be expecting a new WIP for awhile. Here's the new WIP. As I said, don't be expecting any updated WIP for some time now.

My own page on this site.

Posted: 8/31/2005 2:26 AM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (768)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

currently XX seconds faster than Arc's run

Of course, the games are different in many ways, and so they are incomparable as a whole. (In this thread I predicted that a non-glitched Zelda II (USA) run would be about 49:30.) But, we can compare parts. Currently, your movie ends at 5:36, when mine is at 6:26. The differences are: (1) in Zelda 2 (J), the 'Link x3' screen appears 25 seconds into the movie, whereas in the (U) version it appears after 1 second; (2) I went through 7 load screens; and (3) I leveled up twice. 6:26 - 24 seconds at the start - 28 seconds of loading - 6 seconds of leveling + 2 seconds for your cancelled level up and necessarily slower statue grab = 5:30. And so it seems that you are about 6 seconds behind in terms of actual playing. The reason is that your fighting style is a slower single attack instead of a double attack.

Posted: 8/31/2005 1:33 PM

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

Yes, you are right that my movie is somewhat slower than yours in terms of actual gameplay. And i predict that it will continue like that since I won't be able to level up the attack skill to level 2 until I get 200 exp. I don't know what would be faster, if I kill a lot of enemies in the beginning of the game to get attack level 2 fast, or to just kill the enemies that you bypass. What do you think Arc? And another question, is it possible to manipulate luck in order to make the enemies drop a P-bag more often? And while we're talking about luck manipulation, do you know if it's possible to manipulate luck in order to avoid the enemies on the world map to get in your way? Thanks for telling me that my fighting style was not the fastest one, I will think about what you said in the final version. With double attack, do you mean two attacks made swiftly while crouching?

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Posted: 8/31/2005 2:32 PM

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adelikat

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Randil wrote:

And another question, is it possible to manipulate luck in order to make the enemies drop a P-bag more often?

Every 5th or 6th (can't remember which one) small enemy and every 5th or 6th large enemy you kill will always drop a magic container or a p-bag. It is always possible for it to be a p-bag, but it is not possible to get them any more often. what I mean by small enemy is those blob things, or any other low point enemy. Large enemies would be boomerang guys, or the guys with the axe or any other "large" creature. (sorry I don't know what any of them are called) I hope this makes sense.

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Posted: 8/31/2005 2:56 PM

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

Yes, it actually makes a lot of sense adelikat, I know what you're talking about. And I'm aware of the "6-count" rule, that every sixth small enemy drops either a P-bag or a magic container. I should have been clearer in my previous post, what I wanted to know was if someone knows if it's possible to make them drop a P-bag every time they drop an item. I know that it's possible to change the item that they drop by killing them of when they are in a different position´, but I don't know if you can get a on every item-drop. Arc wrote some about this in his submission text for his movie.

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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:58 PM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (768)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

P-Bag: Yes, you should be able to get the item that you need. You just might have to wait a frame to attack. The P-bag that I grabbed 19:02 into my video was one that was really hard to get without slowing down (because of the flames), but I eventually made it work. Fighting: What I did was to do a crouching attack and then immediately do a jumping attack (so that Link moves forward). It is somewhat hard to do perfectly, and you can't always tell whether or not the second hit connected. Leveling: I don't know the exact way to do it correctly for the U version. You don't have to worry about equalizing the levels for the restart like in the J version though (i.e. don't upgrade life). I needed level 5 magic before entering level 3 so that I could 'fairy' through the two locked doors. Likewise, I needed magic-6 for level 4, magic-7 for level 6, and magic-8 for the last palace. But, you may have to make adjustments, since you can grab certain items as a fairy, whereas I had to unlock the door. I remember that when I watched sdkess' Zelda II speedrun, his leveling-up method was pretty good. Maybe you can derive a plan from it. You should watch it anyway so that you can plan your P-Bag and magic jar drops. Overworld: Some enemies can be manipulated by your timing and the squares on which you step, but others automatically appear after a predetermined amount of time (most noticeably on the way to the last palace).

Posted: 9/1/2005 5:22 AM

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

P-bag: Another quick question, can you only get 50-exp P-bag from the enemies or can you get better P-bags such as 100-exp bags? Fighting: Allright, I'll try out your fighting technique and see if I can get it right. I don't think it would be too hard after I figured it out, since I can use frame advance. Leveling: I think that this is the hardest part to plan for this run. Thanks for your tip, I'll watch that speedrun today, Arc. I actually use to hang on that site, I just didn't know that they had a Zelda 2 speedrun. Overworld: I knew that the enemies spawning spots could be manipulated by timing, but after some tests found out that you'd have to wait about 3-4 seconds to make them appear on different squares, so it wasn't worth it. About magic: Do you think that it's absolutely necessary to pick up both the magic container in the beginning of the as well as the one in death mountain? Because picking up the first magic container costs about 28 seconds, so I'm not sure it's worth it if doesn't save a lot of time later on.

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Posted: 9/1/2005 2:25 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

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I think you have to have all the magic containers to get the thunder spell Also, you need to have either 5 or 6 (cant remember which one) to get the reflect spell. So I think you have to get all magic containers.

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Posted: 9/2/2005 4:06 AM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (768)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

Yes you need all of the magic containers. Big enemies drop a 200 point P-Bag whereas small enemies drop a 50 point one. Also in case you didn't know, you won't need the keys that I needed in palace 1. In palace 2 you can fairy through the doors and get the two magic jars within the palace. I think that my prediction was wrong - the time will probably be more like 48:30 or faster.

Posted: 9/2/2005 4:59 AM

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

Arc wrote:

Also in case you didn't know, you won't need the keys that I needed in palace 1. In palace 2 you can fairy through the doors and get the two magic jars within the palace.

All right, I'll probably do that then. If you'd be interested, I could post my the route I'm planning to use here, so we can make sure I use the fastest one. I wouldn't want to redo this run because I chose a bad route. And yes, I'll make sure that I complete all actionscenes as fast, or maybe even faster, than Arc's version, if that's possible. I'll make sure that I do this by comparing the two movies after each actionscene is completed.

My own page on this site.

Posted: 9/15/2005 4:17 AM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (768)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

Ok. Here's what I think after comparing the J and U versions: I already mentioned the keys for levels 1 and 2. Level 3 should be the same. Set up your 6-count for level 4 here. In level 4 you can skip the key and go directly to the boots. Then you can get a magic refill from the entrance statue. But you still have to make sure that you have planned the 6-count carefully for the end part of the level. In level 5 you can skip the key that's in the room that has falling blocks. But after getting the flute, you'll have to get a red jar from someplace in the palace (not from an enemy - you'll need it from an enemy in level 6). Level 6 should be the same - get the red jar refill from the red ironknuckle (6-count again). These things are based on what my magic levels were though. If yours are higher (likely), then some things may need tweaking.

Posted: 9/15/2005 3:39 PM

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

Thanks a lot for comparing the two versions, Arc, it's really appreciated :) I have a lot of stuff to do in school right now, but I'll probably start with this run more seriously in a couple of days. I had an idea too, Arc. What do you think about making this TAS together with me? It's quite a big game to be doing a TAS for alone, so it would be great if you (or someone else who wants to) would make this together with me. You, if someone, have a lot of expert knowledge of this game. I can understand if you don't have the time to do this, it was just an idea that I had.

My own page on this site.

Posted: 9/15/2005 4:54 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (432)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
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Two heads are always better than one head ^_^

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 9/15/2005 10:46 PM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (768)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

I can help if there are situations in which you aren't sure whether or not you've done it as fast as possible.

Posted: 9/16/2005 7:00 AM

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

Well, allright then Arc. It's still a good thing that you're helping me out so much with this :) As I said before, I'll start focusing on this run in a few days (too many tests in school right now) and I'll keep you updated about how the run goes. I'm gonna practice some to get the fighting technique just right too. And if anyone feels up to helping me out making this run, feel free to contact me. :) EDIT: Okay, good news everyone! I think I know how to execute the attack combo that Arc does in his run. It's done like this: Frame 1: Press down+B (to make a crouching attack) Frame 2: Do nothing Frame 3: Press A (to jump) Frame 4: Press down+B to make a crouching attack in the air. Of course I'll have to use frame advance when pulling this off. Arc: Can you take a look at this .fcm to see if I'm doing it right?

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Posted: 9/19/2005 4:41 AM

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (67)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1041

The crouching attack in the air is basically what my movie showed, except that I jumped toward the enemy while doing it.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 9/19/2005 5:00 AM

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

Dacicus wrote:

The crouching attack in the air is basically what my movie showed, except that I jumped toward the enemy while doing it.

I tried downloading your .fcm to watch it again, but the link didn't work. Maybe you can fix this, Dacicus? The thing with Arc's combo attack is that it isn't possible to jump very far towards the enemy when performing it. If I'm understanding Arc right (and after carefully watching his run) you are to do the seconds as soon as you've jumped straight up into the air. You can do the seconds attack while jumping toward the enemy, but It will be a longer wait between the first and the seconds attack then. I don't know how much longer, I'll have to check that out. I'm gonna compare the two methods some to see if I come up with the same result as Atc. Thanks for pointing this out, Dacicus.

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Posted: 9/19/2005 5:18 AM

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Dacicus

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Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1041

Sorry, my host deletes files that aren't downloaded for 2 weeks or so. Here's the new link. From your description, I think that Arc's method might be better, since you can get in two hits pretty quickly. I jump in the movie in order to throw off the knight's shield behavior, because I can't hit him if the shield is up.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 9/19/2005 10:46 PM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (768)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

Randil wrote:

Arc: Can you take a look at this .fcm to see if I'm doing it right?

Yes, it looks correct. The main point is that both the crouching attack and jumping crouch attack should do damage, but the enemy won't indicate whether or not Link's sword connected on second attack. You'll have to know how many hits it takes in order to kill each particular enemy so that you don't miss an attack or two without realizing it. (i.e. sometimes an enemy didn't die when I expected it to, and so I had to redo the fight because an attack had missed.) Fighting against ironknuckles is a different story though, especially if there's a low ceiling.

Posted: 9/20/2005 6:25 PM

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Bladegash

Former player

Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 484
Location:

Why not search for their HP values in RAM?

Posted: 9/20/2005 8:35 PM

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

Bladegash wrote:

Why not search for their HP values in RAM?

I have absolutely no idea how to do that :) If it's not too complicated to do, perhaps you could tell me? If you know how to do so, that is. I've tried interpreting the RAM before, but I didn't understand a squat of it.

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Posted: 9/20/2005 11:17 PM

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