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Expert player (3643)
Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 375
Location: Varberg, Sweden
Well, that's a big timesaver. I'm rather disappointed though. I've always thought zipping in Sonic games impairs the viewing experience, and now the whole Marble Zone is pretty much ruined in that aspect. It also decreases the TASing experience in creating the run deeply, as I had looked forward to all the non-zipping parts of it most of all. I don't know how many more sprites in the games that are directly attached to walls but I'm now quite unmotivated in continuing the run.
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
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I didn't mean for you to become unmotivated. You don't have to use the zipping technique that I showed you. I think the only other level that this would affect is Spring Yard Zone. I couldn't find any other stages to save time with this. I think there could be a "no zipping allowed" run of this game since pretty much with the sprite glitch almost all of this run would consist of zipping through walls. In my personal opinion, I like zipping through the levels because well it demonstrates speed (it's Sonic the Hedgehog). Just my opinion.
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I see a difference between fixed high speed attained through an emergency engine routine and variably high speed attained through optimal usage of the level environment and physics, and I favor the latter. This is way more pronounced in S3&K where pretty much every stage has some kind of a huge zipping glitch.
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Expert player (3643)
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I guess that as of now, a run with wall-zipping and one without would look different from each others enough to warrant publications for both of them. I'd actually be quite interested in working on the later. And if someone or a few others could try to experiment with the new zipping glitch to find all the best uses for it, they could just be hexed into the non-zip run when it's done (which will take a long time for sure). Anyone interested? And GlitchMan, I might've expressed myself a little harsh to you. It's indeed a good discovery and I'm not upset with you or anything, just slightly with the game itself lol.
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
marzojr
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I volunteer for the hexing. Or I could simply release my copy/paste level script for it...
Marzo Junior
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I can't find any other places this would be useful, where would it help in spring yard zone?
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marzojr: How to do with the animal optimization? I think it'll have the best result if you take care of it, as I'm not really comfortable with it. In that case, could I send you the run when it's finished or after each completed world?
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
marzojr
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I can take care of it, yeah; I haven't had time to update the script from the last version yet, but I don't think it will actually be necessary. Now, this game is pretty stable regarding randomness: there are very few things* that use the actual RNG, most using instead the in-level frame counter or the v-int counter. I would say that the safest option would be to edit each zone before moving on to the next zone but, except for the animal patterns, I can see very little odds of things going wrong before Final zone. Just a question -- since you mentioned a "no zip" run, I would guess that would entail not zipping in Green Hill zone 2 (or risk the run being rejected for failing to adhere to its own goals). You will be doing that? (and yes, I know that deciding whether or not to use zips is a pain; I have been there...) Also: I imagine you plan on hex-editing the end-of-acts later? *: Specifically, the lava balls created by the Marble zone boss, the plasma balls in the Final zone boss, something else I can't identify in the Final Zone boss, the animal and explosion patterns in capsules, the animals freed from badniks, boss explosions, bubble movement and generation and the drowning countdown. Edit: As if to prove my point, when I spliced the better animal pattern, Marble zone 2 desynched. I still have to look into why, as I simply copied/pasted both Marble zone levels with my resyncher script (which, to be fair, only handles differences in lag). Edit 2: the difference was at the bat at around 6:00 -- he is too far forward and causes slight differences in subpixel position that propagate. By about 8:00, Sonic is half a pixel further left (and with a different subpixel y position as well) compared to the last WIP you posted. Here is the spliced movie (with all input past the point of desynch still left).
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marzojr wrote:
something else I can't identify in the Final Zone boss
This would be the pillar that Robotnik appears in. The RNG seed also increments by 1 whenever sonic is in contact with final zone boss Robotnik's hitbox.
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marzojr wrote:
Just a question -- since you mentioned a "no zip" run, I would guess that would entail not zipping in Green Hill zone 2 (or risk the run being rejected for failing to adhere to its own goals). You will be doing that? (and yes, I know that deciding whether or not to use zips is a pain; I have been there...)
Yes, more cleary what's banned in is being inside a wall so that you get a speed of 4096+, while sprite ejection and such are fine. The first zone is already done, and judging by the random factors you mentioned it's seems best to fix the animals right away so I'll PM you the WIP.
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
marzojr
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upthorn wrote:
This would be the pillar that Robotnik appears in. The RNG seed also increments by 1 whenever sonic is in contact with final zone boss Robotnik's hitbox.
Ah, yes, I had forgotten that; you had told me this back when I was doing my first version of the Tails TAS.
Marzo Junior
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Me and marzojr are now up to Spring Yard Zone in the zipped TAS. GlitchMan: If you've found some places to zip here (especially in the first two acts) we would be glad to know that now, since neither of us could find anything.
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
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I have a place where there are maps of each stage that shows you what places you can zip through: http://soniccenter.org/maps/sonic_1 These maps have each level's collision detections. The green areas you can't pass through the top, the red is the inverse of the green (can't pass through the sides and the bottom), and the blue you can't pass through at all (unless a sprite object forces you through). I hope this helps.
Expert player (3643)
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Location: Varberg, Sweden
GlitchMan wrote:
I have a place where there are maps of each stage that shows you what places you can zip through: http://soniccenter.org/maps/sonic_1 These maps have each level's collision detections. The green areas you can't pass through the top, the red is the inverse of the green (can't pass through the sides and the bottom), and the blue you can't pass through at all (unless a sprite object forces you through). I hope this helps.
Well, that's already very known to us. To be even more clear, this is what I would like to know: Have you found any zip in the Spring Yard Zone?
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
marzojr
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Specifically, because we have been looking over those maps and I haven't seen anywhere where a zip would be useful in SYZ.
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Mitjitsu
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Aglar wrote:
Well, that's already very known to us. To be even more clear, this is what I would like to know: Have you found any zip in the Spring Yard Zone?
I found a zip in SYZ1 earlier this year, but its useless. Basically, after you get the speed shoes and run along the top of the stage as normal. Once you get to the area where there is a steep slope and a circular star spring at the bottom of it. You can run at it and get ejected into the wall below it. EDIT: Looking at the map for SYZ1 it was most likely the red spring below where it says "CPU"
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The current TAS of this game is now improvable by at least 4 seconds... Link to video
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WST
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Why the hell the character dies if goes offscreen to the bottom like here? Is is possible to avoid that without having to reduce speed?
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Expert player (3643)
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When we where TASing that part, marzojr explained it like this: "The Target Lower Boundary (TLB) in GHZ1 is set to y=768 up until the camera goes past x=6016; after than, it is set to y=1024. When the TLB is different from the Current Lower Boundary (CLB, the one that kills you), the CLB starts to change, as follows: TLB > CLB: if camera Y + 8 < CLB and Sonic is on air for whatever reason, add 8 to CLB; in all other cases, add 2 to CLB. TLB <CLB> TLB, set CLB = TLB - (TLB mod 2) - 2; otherwise just subtract 2 from TLB. We are interested in the first case: TLB > CLB. If we could get Sonic on air after camera x=6016 and when camera Y + 8 < CLB , the bottom boundary would increase six additional pixels per frame for every frame Sonic is on-air. Sadly, this only happens at the end of the second tunnel. In any case, jumping when entering the second tunnel gives a 1-frame delay and sets inertia to 4096 on landing (if above it), so a slightly higher speed might work here; using this, I have been able to go through both tunnels without touching left once. My tries in replicating the trick under these conditions have been unsuccessful, though. Relevant addresses are: $FFF700 (2 bytes): camera X $FFF704 (2 bytes): camera Y $FFF726 (2 bytes): TLB $FFF72E (2 bytes): CLB" Shortly explained: No, you won't survive unless you slow down. You won't need to start pushing "left" until the camera position is bigger than 6016 as mentioned.
feos wrote:
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Is there a way to freeze all the enemies by freezing some addresses? The same question goes to Sonic 1 and 3.
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Unless you're freezing the position, or speed addresses, it seems unlikely to me, and if I'm not mistaken those would vary anyway. To my knowledge the only enemy that uses the RNG is the burrobot. And I suspect the RNG would at most place him into a more consistent pattern. I don't really understand the movement patterns of burrobots very well though, so I could be mistaken.
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Also there's some interesting thing in SonicHackSuite:
r248 log wrote:
Some SonicHackSuite updates, including an incredibly hackish hack that allows for dumping of routes to maps.
How to work with it?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I made a TAS of Marble Zone 2 in 10s57f
Expert player (3643)
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Location: Varberg, Sweden
Tee-N-Tee wrote:
I made a TAS of Marble Zone 2 in 10s57f
Nice one! I'm usually not too exited about zip discoveries like this since what it does is beating the act in less time by having less gameplay which I usually find boring. But it often turns out there are some nice twitches you can add to increase the amount of frames saved like you did here.
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
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Tee-N-Tee wrote:
I made a TAS of Marble Zone 2 in 10s57f
This uses the Rev 01 ROM.
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