Topic by inichi

Posted: 8/12/2007 12:10 AM
(Edited: 8/12/2007 12:45 AM)

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inichi

Player (48)

Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan

Thanks hero and Saturn! And thanks for sharing lots of useful memory addresses. Especially, the enemy's HP addresses would be very helpful to optimize each battle. Actually, a key factor behind the new strategy is the two battles in Guardia Forest. You can see that I delay the timing to use the Cyclone at the first battle, and I select the enemy that Rucca attacks as Crono's target at the second battle, both of which is essential to generate the favorable enemy's action and the repeating critical hits at the cathedral. Other than those above, I change the battle mode, the battle speed, the party's order and Crono's equipment to set the best condition of each battle there. As for making a TAS, I actually have been very interested in it for a month or two, but, I had second thoughts about it, because I was not sure if I have enough skill to make a TAS which meets the quality that TASVideos requires. However, just now, your positive words helped me make up my mind. I will make a TAS of Chrono Trigger any% run. Regarding the issue of which ROM to use, Japanese or English, I use the English version. The reason is simple: TASVideos aims for the entertainment, and an unknown language for most people, Japanese, would easily take the fun out of run. Besides, the differences between both versions are very little other than the text speed. As for the possibilities to beat my run at SDA, I think it is highly possible, since, as someone said, my run isn't optimized at all. For now, I try to see if my strategy on console, especially the Lavos one, work all right without using an in-game reset to change RNG. At the same time, I try to find the best possible movement at every single event such as the rat chase. Any ideas and imputs will always be appreciated.

Posted: 8/12/2007 12:21 AM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

Whoa, that's going to be great if you do an any% TAS, it would mean hero will have more time for his other projects. :D I'm looking forward to seeing what crazy ideas you will [most definitely] come up with during the production of this run.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 8/12/2007 3:27 PM

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antd

Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain

Japanese version, Japanese version.

Posted: 8/12/2007 3:54 PM

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Kyrsimys

Former player

Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland

Yay! I'm glad you decided to use the English version right away. I'm looking forward to your run.

Posted: 8/12/2007 3:59 PM

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Soulrivers

Former player

Joined: 12/27/2006
Posts: 532
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

Agreeing with above posters, I'm very much looking forward to this run. Good luck with it.

My published movies [03:45:05] <Naohiro19> Soulrivers: ... [03:45:19] <Soulrivers> ? [03:46:35] <Naohiro19> <Soulrivers> No! <Naohiro19> So? <Soulrivers> Yes! [03:46:48] <Naohiro19> joke

Posted: 8/12/2007 4:01 PM

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laughing_gas

Former player

Joined: 10/1/2006
Posts: 1102
Location: boot_camp

Nice, as long you keep finding new strategies I'm sure you can beat your unassisted run using the (U) version.

Borg Collective wrote:

Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:34 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Great to hear inichi :D I am eagerly awaiting to see what insane new strategies you develop. It is amazing how this game can still manage to provide new surprises. I think there are a few other places where a scene skip may be possible. The escape from Guardia castle for example, as well as the very likely mom escape. I will try to poke around and see if I can find any new strategies for you to use.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 8/14/2007 4:22 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

I am starting to doubt the mom skip is possible now. I spent alot of time on it and I could not even gain 1 pixel, let alone the 2 needed for the skip. I wonder what could be done differently to make it possible? here is my current attempt (same distance that inichi got)

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 8/14/2007 4:29 PM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

hero of the day wrote:

I wonder what could be done differently to make it possible?

Hypothetically speaking, introduce more objects in the scene in order to maximize the possible movement between checks. No, I don't know whether it would work.

Posted: 8/20/2007 4:06 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (278)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

I know you can add cats to that room, but that's after you've already left once.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 8/21/2007 1:38 PM

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inichi

Player (48)

Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan

Thanks all! Now I'll post the progress of the testrun. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/461209519/inichi_chronotrigger_testrun1.smv Highlight: -A new trick to pass the second guard without knocking him out or fighting. -The shorter Dragon Tank battle without using any Tonic. -A new trick to pass the two guards by the stairs on the first floor without stopping. -A new faster route in Lab 16. -A shopping in Arris Dome, two Shelters and an Auto Gun. -The shorter Guardian battle because of Lucca's high attack power. In this movie, I make a mistake of not stealing a Mid Tonic from the first guard, which will certainly be critical in the Heckran battle. So I'll probably make another savestate with that Mid Tonic and resume the testrun. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Posted: 8/21/2007 2:58 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

great job again. Really great improvements you have made with the Dragon Tank and Guardian battle. Would it be possible to get just 1 more critical hit from chrono in the guardian battle? It would save some time preventing the "bits revival" animation. It seems like it might be possible to escape from guardia castle without having the conversation with marle. A quick test by myself revealed that the trigger for the conversation can vary, just like the one with mom and the candy lady. I will investigate this some more. Keep up the excellent work! edit: Couple questions, Do you plan on making the entire run a test run, then starting over to make a final run? Did you find my memory watch file to be of any use?

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 8/22/2007 1:50 PM

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inichi

Player (48)

Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan

Thank you hero! As you said, one more critical hit from Crono keeps Guardian reviving from the bits and saves another about 450 frames. Even though it seems rather difficult to get it, I'll give it a try. Regarding the escape from the castle, it would be extremely difficult to manage it. However, I believe it is well worth trying, since what you manage to escape from the castle means that you also may be able to escape from a lot of similiar events that the trigger varies such as the fight with three Blue Imps, which saves a chunk of time. I'll seriously look into that.

Do you plan on making the entire run a test run, then starting over to make a final run? Did you find my memory watch file to be of any use?

No, not really. However, it would be nearly the entire run. Otherwise, I may come to a dead end somewhere in the run and wind up redoing the run. It's best to be on the safe side, I guess. Of course. Those two boss strategies are all thanks to your enemy HP addresses. Actually, the damage that I give to Guardian is exactly 1200, which is due to those addresses. Clock addresses are also useful because one of my goal is to break my in-game record on SDA. I'll often pay attenion to them when I start to make a final run.

Posted: 8/27/2007 2:38 PM

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inichi

Player (48)

Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan

I have found a strange but funny trick at the End of Time, which turns the boring chat into an entertainment show and also saves a few seconds. Here it is. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/325966897/endoftime.smv As for the progress of my testrun, here is the current status. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/272322866/inichi_chronotrigger_testrun2.smv As usual, I left out a part of being unrelated to my strategy from the movie. If someone likes to see other parts such as the rat chase or the bike race with Johnny, please let me know. I'm willing to post the movie which includes those parts. Actually, this movie is almost the same with my run on SDA except for the better luck manuplation at the fight with 5 Alkalines. The more important thing is that I found addresses which decides the combination of Acids and Alkalines. Here are those addresses. 7E1425,7E1427,7E1429,7E142B,7E142D They take a value of 6 or 7 when you enter the room to fight them, and if the value is 6, an Acid appears, and if the value is 7, an Alkaline appears. That is, you have to manuplate the luck so that all addresses take the value of 7 in order to see 5 Alkaline appears. And fortunately, it's quite easy to do that luck manuplation, since they have the same value every one minute. Here is the list of all combinations of the values in one minute.

66666,66666,66666,66667,66677,66776,67767,77676,76766,67667
76676,66766,67667,76677,66777,67777,77776,77767,77676,76766
67667,76677,66777,67777,77777,77776,77767,77676,76766,67666
76667,66677,66776,67767,77676,76767,67676,76766,67666,76667
66676,66766,67666,76667,66677,66777,67776,77766,77666,76666
66667,66676,66767,67676,76767,67677,76776,67766,77666,76666

As you can see, it is only once a minute that they all take the value of 7.　Perhaps, there are several errors in the above list, but that won't be much problem, I think. Also, as for the later three boss battles, Heckran, Zombor and Masa&Mune, I am planning to use somewhat different strategies from the one hero and I used. I guess the new strategies could save 10 seconds in total at least. Anyway, some test will be needed to find it out.

Posted: 8/29/2007 4:26 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

That is a great discovery you made at the end of time, and yeah that is much more exciting than watching boring text. It is pretty cool that you were able to figure out the patterns for the acids and alkalines. This one fight is such a significant improvement over mine. I am looking forward to seeing what new strategies you have made for those upcoming bosses. Does this mean you will keep the same nizbel strategy?

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 8/30/2007 3:36 PM

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inichi

Player (48)

Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan

I just found a new trick at the Residence in Medina Village which makes it possible to escape from the two imps in the middle of the conversation with them and saves about 190 frames. Here.

hero of the day wrote:

Does this mean you will keep the same nizbel strategy?

Yeah, probably. Of course, I'll try hard to see if there is anything new which might be a timesaver on that battle as well as any other boss battles. However, I'll almost certainly stick to your strategy, since it is very well thought out and seems flawless. And also, the Nizbel strategy has been my favorite of all your boss fights since I first watched your run.

Posted: 8/31/2007 9:00 PM

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Blaise

Joined: 12/28/2004
Posts: 210

Great new techniques, this run is going to have alot of surprises.

Posted: 9/4/2007 10:09 PM

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inichi

Player (48)

Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan

Thanks, Blaise! Yeah, I'll do my best to discover another suprising time-saving technique. A new Heckran and Zombor strategy worked very well as expected, so I'll release WIP of the test run around those battles. Here it is. Melchior's Hut -> Heckran's cave, The battle of Zenan bridge Please let me explain about the new strategy for those battles. As you can see, a key part of the new strategy is to drop in at Melchior's hut and buy a Red Katana from him. It costs about 700 frames to do that, so it may seem a considerable delay occurs there. However, Red Katana boosts Crono's magic power +2 and his attack power +6, which would be a great timesaver for upcoming boss battles. For example, on the Heckran battle, it allows you to use Antipod once even when he takes the second counter-attacking style, because Red Katana can increase the damage of Slash by about 10pt, and for that reason, Heckran has few HP left at that point. Also, on the Zombor battle, it makes the fight much shorter than to use a Berserker, since Slash from Red Katana does almost the same damage to the bottom body with a physical attack of Crono with a Berserker, and has a shorter animation than that. By the way, I have managed a way to skip most of the conversation between the Chef and the Maid in the Guardia Castle kitchen, which shortens the time to wait at the bottom of the stairs and saves 100 frames at least. It also may add a little bit of entertainment to that event, since it seems like the Chef gives a shout at Crono, who has come all the way to the castle to let him know about starving his brother;) here As usual, if you have any feedback, please feel free to let me know.

Posted: 9/11/2007 12:06 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Not much to say other than excellent work with these new strategies. Any idea how much faster your test run is than my run up to this point?

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 9/11/2007 1:55 PM
(Edited: 9/16/2007 8:47 AM)

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inichi

Player (48)

Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan

Thank you, hero! I'm glad you liked those new strategies. In fact, I'm almost finished developing a new solid MasaMune strategy which would be faster than your one by about 30 seconds. I'm going to post it within a few days. I wish you would like it too. As for the time difference between my run and yours at that point, it would be around 5 minutes and 30 seconds, though, it is a very rough estimate. Because I was so lazy that I went through events around the trial in a very sloppy way by holdng a fast forward key. When I make a final run, I'll make an effort to provide you a precise time difference on important points. By the way, what would you think if I said I have managed to use a Barrier on Ayla before Lavos uses the first Laser Beams?

Posted: 9/11/2007 8:59 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

inichi wrote:

By the way, what would you think if I said I have managed to use a Barrier on Ayla before Lavos uses the first Laser Beams?

Really!?! That sounds like it would make the lavos battle happen a lot sooner in the story line. A barrier would allow her to survive the initial attack, and then revive the entire party. No more green dream required?

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 9/11/2007 11:06 PM

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inichi

Player (48)

Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan

Yeah, as hard as it may be to believe, I actually did. here To be honest, it was done by pure accident, and I have no idea at all why such an unnatual thing is possible. Perhaps, it is related to that I equipped a Berserker with Crono on the fight with the real form of Shell Lavos. I think more test will be needed to figure out its mechanics. Anyway, There is no doubt this leads to gigantic changes of the later part of the run. First is, as you said, no more GreenDream. You still need to visit to Fiona's Shrine, since it is impossible to stand Chaos, Obstacle and Shadow Slayer without Vigil Hat. But, you don't have to finish the GreenDream quest anymore, and about 2 minutes and 40 seconds would be saved!!! Second is, you have to search for an alternative to Twister. Twister is a tech that I abused at the fights with each form of Shell Lavos in my run, but, it is not available this time, because Robo is still laid to rest in Fiona's shrine. I'm thinking Fire Whirl is a reasonable way, since Fire Whirl also generates a massive damage, and it has less animation than Twister. Probably, I have to thoroughly rethink my leveling-up strategy at Tyrano lair, which means now I have much more work to do than before, but it's a welcome thing.

Posted: 9/11/2007 11:51 PM

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mmbossman

Experienced player (822)

Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong

I just wanted to let you know that while I may not have been following your current progress inichi, I'm greatly looking forward to seeing it completed. I know it's an incredibly long game, and to go through it with the dedication you're showing is very commendable. I hope you have the patience to finish this!

Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page

Posted: 9/12/2007 2:49 AM

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Floogal

Joined: 2/14/2007
Posts: 127

In case you're wondering, Robo still appears at the ending like normal if he's still at Fiona's Shrine. At least, he does in the ending where everything but reviving Crono is completed (heh, finishing with a party of just 4...), so I'm assuming that in your ending it will also be so. I guess the programmers didn't expect you to abandon poor Robo like that... Anyways, I'm glad that your runs are emphasizing the usefullness of Twister and Fire Whirl -- 2 very powerful attacks for when the last and second-last techs aren't yet learned. The only other real contender would be Glacier, but I doubt that you've given Frog or Marle enough tech points, and it only hits single targets. Now, a few times for fun, I've fought Lavos with my maxed-out file while only equipping Haste Helms, Beserkers, and the best weapons/armours. Surprisingly, any party has a decent chance of succeeding, but Crono + Lucca/Frog + Ayla works best. Anyways, often one character gets off an attack before inner-Lavos initial Doors of Doom attack -- sometimes all 3!

Posted: 9/14/2007 3:36 PM

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inichi

Player (48)

Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan

Thanks for the encouragement, mmbossman! Yes, Chrono Trigger is a relatively long game in SNES, and it's true I sometimes get depressed just thinking about how many are left. But CT has been my favorite game for a long time, so I'll definitely finish this run unless an unexpected accident happens to my real life.

Floogal wrote:

In case you're wondering, Robo still appears at the ending like normal if he's still at Fiona's Shrine. At least, he does in the ending where everything but reviving Crono is completed (heh, finishing with a party of just 4...), so I'm assuming that in your ending it will also be so. I guess the programmers didn't expect you to abandon poor Robo like that...

Thanks for the tip. IIRC, Robo shows up twice in the "What the Prophet Seeks" ending, Leene's Square and Crono's house. So, I'm looking forward to see him, who should not be there in that Ending.

Now, a few times for fun, I've fought Lavos with my maxed-out file while only equipping Haste Helms, Beserkers, and the best weapons/armours. Surprisingly, any party has a decent chance of succeeding, but Crono + Lucca/Frog + Ayla works best. Anyways, often one character gets off an attack before inner-Lavos initial Doors of Doom attack -- sometimes all 3!

Sounds interesting. I haven't heard of All 3 can sometimes precede the inner-Lavos' first attack. Then, it may be within the realm of possibility that Crono, who is not equipped with Berserker and Haste Helm, and whose speed is 15, does the faster action than inner-Lavos. By the way, I've finally made the Masa/Mune and Masamune battle done. here. As you can see, a new strategy is to equip Crono with Berserker. It may seem somewhat reckless to give Berserker to him in the battle, since Crono with Berserker can't use Slash to prevent Masamune from using the fatal Tornado. However, that's not a big problem, because, unlike usual strateies, Crono's sword is now Red Katana, which makes it relatively easy to cut his HP in half by the time he starts to store an energy. As a result, I have saved about 45 seconds from hero's run in the both fights alone. Also, regarding Masamune's strange behavior, hero's movie was really helpful to reproduce it. Thanks, hero!