Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
That red katana has sure made some incredible new tactics possible. Great job as always Inichi, glad my movie could provide you with some help :) 45 seconds is an awesome improvement. I predict the nizbel battle will now be reduced to 2 rounds due to having the red katana.
I predict the nizbel battle will now be reduced to 2 rounds due to having the red katana.
That's a good point, hero! I was just thinking about that. Considering the fact that RedKatana boosts the damage from Crono's physical attack by about 15% compared to LodeSword, it's very possible. I think whether it will work or not probably depends on how many critical hits I can get in the battle. I'll give it a try, anyway. Thanks for the good suggestion!
I've been watching these mini files for some time now and I have to say, darn impressive! Just a few questions...
1) At what point in the story are you going for Lavos? I'm guessing just when you get Epoch so you can crash into it and not have to battle the outside (saving valuable levelup time).
2) Continuing from that, would getting Black Vest/Mail be too much of a delay? I seem to remember a lot of Lavos's damage being Shadow type... Still, dropping off at 2300 AD to steal it from Son of Sun (even if you can run away instantly, which I doubt) might be a bigger delay than any leveling-up ;)
3) What's (generally) involved in manipulating critical hits in this game? Is the formula clear yet? Does it change with Berserked characters? I noticed you had "only" two critical hits with Crono in the Masamune battle. Or do the other characters' battle gauges and actions compensate for the additional animation in a critical hit?
After the prophet kicks him out of 12000 BC, he's going to do Fiona's sidequest in order to purchase Vigil Helms. After that, he's going directly to Lavos without getting Epoch. Waiting to get Epoch and then making it fly (in order to crash into Lavos) would take longer than the necessary leveling up. For the same reason, he can't even reach Son of Sun to steal anything.
As for critical hits, it seems (from what I've heard) that the RNG is only used when needed, and unmanipulable except by changing the number of times it's used.
Thanks for your comments, Ren. and Thanks a lot Nitrodon for making a quick and precise answer for Ren's question.
1),2). Nitrodon is quite right. I'm going to fight Lavos in the "Break the seal" chapter without getting Epoch. So, it is impossible to steal Black Mail from Son of Sun, besides that, it is actually less helpful for the Lavos battle since Lavos doesn't use a Shadow attack except when it takes the Magus or Giga Gaia mode. On a related note, other than Vigil Hat, I'm going to pick up Gold Earring and Lumin Robe at Aris Dome to survive inner-Lavos' Doors of Doom. Also, if you are interested in how I beat Lavos at such an early stage of the game, you might want to watch a segment 32 and 33 of my CT run at SDA.
http://speeddemosarchive.com/ChronoTrigger.html#norm
3). Nitrodon is exactly right again. As far as I know, when you can get a critical hit in a battle is already decided when a previous battle finishes, and it is absolutely impossible to manipulate it except for inserting another battle between them. As for the above Masamune battle, Crono's critical hit occurs only when you use a 4th and 18th physical attack, and it never changes whatsover. I'd guess some table about critical hits may exist and it may be used in order every time you use a physical attack, I could be wrong though.
By the way, I have just discovered a new MASSIVE timesaver. The fight with two Blue Imps or two Imp Aces at Truce Canyon can be avoided!!
here
I'm going to go through Truce Canyon four times in my run, so I think 50 seconds wll be saved at least. Also, I have to mention that I'm thinking about redoing the battle of Zenan Bridge, because I reached the conclusion that the strategy using Berserker is actually much faster than the one using Slash after having some tests. So it will take a while before I'll release a WIP around the Nizbel battle.
Joined: 7/8/2007
Posts: 27
Location: North Carolina, USA
Just wanted to say that I have been closely watching your progress and have loved all of the tricks that you have found so far. Keep up the great work!
All right, the Zombor battle has been dramatically improved by combining RedKatana and Berserker. Moreover, I have developed a new strategy for three bosses up to Zombor. Here it is.
Guardian battle v2R series battle v2Heckran battle v2Zombor battle v2
Surprisingly, those new strategies don't influence on the next battle at all. Crono's critical hit still occurs only twice in the Masamune battle and generated damage numbers are totally the same with the WIP I posted before. So, I'll probably be able to add them to the final version without a hutch.
Please let me explain about the logic behind the new strategies.
Guardian: I replace Lucca's normal attack to the left bit with Flame Toss, because it enables to use one more Marle's attack in the countdown time without losing Crono's critical hit. Poor Guardian breaks down before even reviving the bit. about 300 frames saved.
R series: Lucca with Berserker and Plasmagun is capable of killing R series in one shot after you use Cyclone, which decreases the number of R series' attack in the front row from three times to once. Also, even though the battle itself is shorter than the previous one by 220 frames, unfortunately, it costs 195 frames to equip Berserker and Plasma Gun with Lucca in advance, and 6 frames are needed to remove Berserker at Melchior's Hut. But it would be still 20 frames faster than usual strategy.
Heckran: If you give Bandana to Marle, she can get enough speed to attack twice between Heckran finishes the counterattack mode and it uses second Cyclone, which enables to use Ice as a final blow and make it with Mid Tonic instead of Aura Whirl as the second healing. Aura Whirl has a longer animation than Mid Tonic as it looks, so you can gain another 200 frames here.
Zombor: Back to a strategy which is similar to hero's. Crono with Berserker and Red Katana does the massive damage to Zombor that you don't have to use Fire at all. PlasmaGun is also useful here because it makes it possible to replace Crono's one physical attack with Lucca's one shot. Also, I delayed the timing to use Crono and Lucca's attack in the fight with three Rancers in order to move up the timing that critical hit occurs on the Zombor battle. This is why Crono's critical hit happens at the best timing. About 1270 frames saved. Even if you subtract the time it will take to equip and take off Berserker before and after the battle, it's still at least 900 frames faster than the previous strategy.
By the way, I have noticed that the intro scene of CT desyncs on Snes 1.43. In other words, The demo movie finishes before the music ends. I'd guess that Snes 1.43 doesn't accurately emulate the fade-out lag on console, because I found that the opening scene normally syncs on 1.51 like the console, and the fade-out lag on 1.51 is usually longer than the one on 1.43 by 2-5 frames, I may be wrong.
I'd personally prefer to use the emulator which emulates the console more accurately even if it gets slower by a minitute or two. However I have heard that the desync frequnetly occurs on 1.51. So now I'm unsure whether to use 1.43 or 1.51 in the final run.
If you have an opinion, please feel free to post it.
Thanks.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Very nice strategies inichi :D
As for using the 1.51 version of snes9x. I managed to make a 10 minute long movie of Chrono Trigger without experiencing a desync. Apparently not every game is plagued with the desync issues. If 1.51 is more accurate to the actual snes timing, I would be all for using it. I guess more testing may be needed before we know for a fact that CT is not one of those desyncing games, since I was able to get past 10 minutes in my Super Metroid run before experiencing my first desync.
Very nice strategies inichi :D
As for using the 1.51 version of snes9x. I managed to make a 10 minute long movie of Chrono Trigger without experiencing a desync. Apparently not every game is plagued with the desync issues. If 1.51 is more accurate to the actual snes timing, I would be all for using it. I guess more testing may be needed before we know for a fact that CT is not one of those desyncing games, since I was able to get past 10 minutes in my Super Metroid run before experiencing my first desync.
Thanks for the info, hero. It's good to know that you didn't experience any desync in 10 minutes on 1.51. Then I'll make a movie until the trial as a test on 1.51 before I resume the testrun, since I just feel the need to check how the two battles in Guardia forest changes because of skipping the battle in Truce Canyon and I also have a new idea to try on the trial. It will be about 20 minutes and I think it's enough length to decide whether the desync happens or not on 1.51.
Everybody, I have managed to entirely skip Guardian, Zombor and Nizbel 2 by abusing the menu screen . Here it is.
Guardian skipZombor skipNizbel 2 skip
Other than those bosses, this trick makes it possible to break a lot of sequences and save a ton of time. I'll post some of them later.
!!!!?
Incredible find! Although I'd love to see a run abusing this, I hope there's still room on the site for a 'real' playthrough with all the necessary bosses whacked. But anyway, for a run aiming purely for time, this is awesome!
Haha, this guy keeps finding strats one crazier than the last one faster than hero on Super Metroid, and that's a lot. :D Then posting all this like it's no big deal.
Damn really. Insane find!
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
I bet he's still in the testing phase and will find even more tricks. :-P
I think what inichi has shown so far does indeed deserve a ninja rank already. Amazing stuff man!
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
microstorage finally started working for me..
Crazy stuff you have discovered inichi :) This trick seems like it can be applied to almost any situation in the game. It is a shame at the same time too, because the awesome strategies that your made for some of the boss battles will never be seen. Have you decided for sure that you will be using this trick in your run?
Thanks, everybody. Here are some sequence break that the trick makes it possible.
The info center Crono, Lucca and Marle decide to change history without watching the video of Lavos.
Melchior's Hut Melchior repairs Masamune without using Dreamstone.
Forest Maze You can get Kino out of the way without chatting with him.
These are just a part of which I have found that this trick can be used. I'll post the rest of them later.
Also, if you don't limit the occasion to use this trick to timesaving purposes, you can cause more chaotic thing to the game. For example, if you use this trick at the Telepod area, the second Marle appears there, and you can go to mid era with one Marle following the other Marle, the game crashes soon though.
laughing_gas wrote:
Inichi have you started recording yet or are you still in the testing phase?
I have not started yet. I think I'll be able to make a decent quality run if I should start the recording right now. However, I feel more test will be needed in order to make a highly optimized run. It will take a couple of months at least until I start to make the final run. Sorry for my laziness.
hero of the day wrote:
It is a shame at the same time too, because the awesome strategies that your made for some of the boss battles will never be seen. Have you decided for sure that you will be using this trick in your run?
I'm glad you liked my boss strategies. Then, I think you'd like this new Zombor strategy, which is 634 frames faster than previous one.
Zombor battle v3
As for using this trick in my run or not, well, I have not decided yet. I think I may use it except the boss battles. The reason is that boss battles are usually most entertaining in any RPG run, and it is significiant change that three boss battles disappear from the run. On the other hand, as I showed above, you can make the boring events shorter and more entertaining by using this trick. Anyway, I'd like to hear everyone's opinion about this issue. Thanks in advance.
As for using this trick in my run or not, well, I have not decided yet. I think I may use it except the boss battles. The reason is that boss battles are usually most entertaining in any RPG run, and it is significiant change that three boss battles disappear from the run. On the other hand, as I showed above, you can make the boring events shorter and more entertaining by using this trick. Anyway, I'd like to hear everyone's opinion about this issue. Thanks in advance.
As much as I would like you to use this trick some more, it's a good point that boss battles are pretty much the only interesting thing in RPG runs, especially in Chrono Trigger, since there is no insta-kill spells available to characters in it (which is very good). It would be ok with me if you leave the boss battles intacts.
Btw, great discoveries. I'm very much looking forward to this run (though I'm not fond of RPG runs in general, this is definitely the one to look for).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Lol, good luck having "fights optional bosses" as a separate category.
Anyway, my point is that shortening a 3.5 hour long run by a few minutes by removing the more entertaining parts of it is kind of… bad.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I would have to agree with everyone else that Inichi is definitely a ninja. I have been following this board since inichi hopped on and have been extremely impressed with all the findings. I felt obligated to finally say something after this discovery of major sequence breaking. As for use of the sequence breaking...I would say it would be ok some of the time but as it has been said before a major portion of the entertainment from this game comes from the boss battles. It would get a lil boring watching this technique used all the time. I would have no problems with some speed/entertainment trade-offs.
