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Active player (276)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
It was inevitable HM would throw a map which can't be done in the same way as NM and require a whole rethink. I wouldn't necessarily worry about having to take an extra turn or two if it makes the combat more manageable - frame count is the ultimate goal here, not turn count, after all, and I've found in FE6 that often lowest turn count strategies are much longer in terms of frame count. I would assume a fair amount of enemies do not move unless a unit is in range, which means that enemy phases won't be too much longer overall than NM - most of the units you are using to fight will have Move range over the enemies, at least. Also, don't focus on the probabilities so much - check what is actually possible with the upcoming RNs and make adjustments based on that. TASing an RPG is all about dealing with slim odds after all, but that is where RNG manipulation comes in. EDIT: Suggestion for the pirates near the start - lure them to the land on turn 1, use your foot units to kill them on turn 2 player phase. You don't necessarily even have to equip your lure with a weapon if your other units can kill them safely enough - it is a way to reduce the enemy phase length a bit.
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
Is Eirika's route still definitely faster even after this? Since the next rout chapter in the route is just the ext chapter, I'd definitely peek ahead to see if that one gets significantly worse as well, and consider a route switch.
Player (99)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Prepare for a monster post, this comes out to 6 pages in word, but I’ve drafted a 7 turn plan I’m convinced will work. A 7 turn with Seth C turning through the map seems impossible. Even with Vanessa ferrying him halfway through, he simply cannot reach the the boss tile in time. He can get to 2 range from the boss, but then there are 2 archers adjacent to the boss that don’t move. Another problem with Seth sweeping the map is that he can’t get the archers shown below to suicide into him. Vanessa is occupied, so only Tana could do it. Oh wait, the archers have 4 luck. She can’t crit or double unless she uses the slim lance, which Vanessa desperately needs, and she has to dodge the other archer’s attack on enemy phase. Then, presumably her arriving on the south island will lure some of the enemies over, so she’s screwed after she kills the second archer (her combat truly sucks). Conclusion? There’s no going around having to ferry Seth to the south. And without further ado, here we go. Prep Turn 1 The combination of Seth and Eirika remove all the pirates south of them, and Vanessa critkills the pirate she’s about to attack in the picture. The level-up she requires is a bit wild: hp/str/skl/spd/def, thank goodness it’s on player phase. Tana moves down in preparation of ferrying Seth, and Kyle sits still. The only reason he’s here is to take out those 2 soldiers who don’t move unless someone’s in their attack range. The only enemy phase manipulations are making Seth land all his javelin attacks, and have Vanessa critkill the archer that attacks her. Not too bad. Turn 2 The first pic shows Tana carrying Seth, the second the ideal position for Vanessa. I want Vanessa to get attacked by the 3 mercs (she can survive all 3 hits) and the archer (required dodge obviously), while being out of range of the 2 soldiers and the myrmidon. Now, I have 2 options here. Either Vanessa critkills one of the mercs with a javelin, or she equips a slim lance. The benefit of the slim lance is that she doubles and 3HKOes, and her crit chance goes up by 5. Thus, a slim lance + javelin combination leads to a 2RKO, and any slim lance crit is an instakill. She has 9 crit with the slim lance, giving her a 17.19% chance to crit at least once in 2 hits. Her odds of critkilling 2/3 mercs on enemy phase with a slim lance are about 7%, but critting all 3 makes it fall down to 0.5%. She also has to dodge the sniper’s attack, he has about 67 true hit on her. This is getting a bit messy, probability breakdown again. Sniper dodge: 33% chance Vanessa critkills 0/3 mercs: 56.79% Vanessa critkills 1/3 mercs: 35.36% Vanessa critkills 2/3 mercs: 7.34% Vanessa critkills 3/3 mercs: 0.51% Vanessa 2 kills + sniper dodge: 2.42% Vanessa 3 kills + sniper dodge: 0.17% Before turn 2 enemy phase, Vanessa is level 7.24. She gains 11 exp from an attack, and 37 exp from a kill. 2 kills: 24 (base) + 11 (attack) + 37*2 (2 kills) + 1 (dodging sniper) = 110 exp. She levels up. 3 kills: 110 + (37-11) = 136 exp Either way, she’s levelling up, and she wants def again because it reduces 4 damage hits by mercs to 3. Str/skl/spd level-up: 11.55% Str/skl/spd/def level-up: 2.31% This sucks. Check out the modified probabilities now. Vanessa 2 kills + sniper dodge + str/skl/spd level-up: 0.28% Vanessa 2 kills + sniper dodge + str/skl/spd/def level-up: 0.056% Vanessa 3 kills + sniper dodge + str/skl/spd level-up: 0.020% Vanessa 3 kills + sniper dodge + str/skl/spd/def level-up: 0.0040% To put this into perspective, let’s look at the estimated RN burns required, and the frames lost assuming a rate of 5 RNs burned per frame. 1) ~357 RNs (~71 frames) 2) ~1786 RNs (~357 frames) 3) ~5000 RNs (~1000 frames) 4) ~25000 RNs (~5000 frames) *Bolded the outcome I consider the most reasonable for my purposes. Only the first 2 are even feasible, so that rules out Vanessa getting 3 kills. Either that, or I let her eat a bad level-up, but the consequences of that will show right away. One more consideration, Vanessa’s durability is seriously an issue. She can take 4 merc hits before she’s going to need to dodge every single hit she faces. Problem is, these mercs have a very high hitrate, 73 true hit to be precise. 0/3 mercs hit (19 hp left): 1.97% 1/3 mercs hit (15 hp left): 15.97% 2/3 mercs hit (11 hp left): 43.17% 3/3 mercs hit (7 hp left): 38.90% Yikes. At least she can survive the turn taking all the merc hits. Turn 3 Tana drops Seth and moves back to safety, nothing special. Vanessa has to kill the pirate (remember they don’t attack her, they just charge for the village). This introduces 2 options: a javelin kill and a slim lance kill. She doesn’t level up on the kill even if she killed all 3 mercs on the last enemy phase. There are serious advantages and disadvantages to both weapon choices. If she uses the javelin, that puts her out of range of 2 of the 3 mercs, and she will only face 3 attacks: a myrm, a merc, and the sniper. The drawback? Her avoid goes to hell. With javelin Sniper 81 hit Mercs 3 damage/86 hit Myrm 7 damage/73 hit With slim lance Sniper 63 hit Mercs 3 damage/70 hit Myrm 7 damage/52 hit Based on the turn 2 data, the most feasible outcomes are Vanessa killing 1-2 mercs. In particular, if she kills 2, she’s only facing one merc on turn 3 enemy phase regardless of what weapon is equipped. For this reason, I can confidently say that sticking with the slim lance is the way to go. Even with the minimum hp amount of 7 left, Vanessa can take 2 merc hits (assuming the other one is even alive). The probability of her dodging both the myrm and the sniper are a decent 14.4%. Vanessa’s exp gain now is unpredictable due to all these contingencies, but assuming she levels up again by the end of turn 3 enemy phase, she’ll have an 11.55% chance of getting str/skl/spd. Def is pointless now because she’s almost guaranteed to be 1HKOed by everything from now on. Getting hp doesn’t help either as it only increases her max hp, not her current hp. So, that gives us a ~1.66% cumulative odds of success so far, very manageable. Vanessa doesn’t have to crit the myrm because she 2HKOes with a slim lance, but killing him would make it easier to survive next turn’s enemy phase. Her crit chance is 8%. Adding in the crit makes a ~0.13% cumulative chance, still in the realm of sanity (~753 RNs or ~150 frames). The merc will die (he was already weakened), and so will the myrm (critted), leaving the sniper alive. Whoo! Turn 4 Seth critkills the boss with a javelin. Since the sniper has 8 luck, the only way I can crit him is with a slim lance (4% crit chance). To ORKO I need a slim lance double crit, a lovely 0.16% chance (~625 RNs, ~125 frames). At least it’s on player phase, and let’s pray there’s no level-up. You’ll notice that killing the sniper means the pirate goes free. That’s fine, Vanessa can take him out the next turn easily. There's supposed to be 3 soldiers in the picture, but they are no problem, Kyle can take them out on enemy phase without interfering with the other enemies that Vanessa’s taking care of. For once the enemy phase isn’t outrageous. Only the mage and merc can attack her, and there’s a very good chance Vanessa 1RKOing mercs with a slim lance now. If not, her crit chance is still high, around 19% in 2 hits. Turn 5 This archer limits how far Seth can go. If I don’t kill him, he gets left behind. This is where I’ll be moving Seth. Goodbye pirate. There’s only 1 contingency of interest here. If I kill the pirate at range with a jav, Vanessa can 1RKO the mage on a counter, but loses the 1RKO on the merc. If she attacks the pirate at 1 range, the mage isn’t even in range. Enemy phase is super easy, I might have to worry about Seth breaking javelins, Vanessa needs to dodge 1 merc, and possibly levelling up. Turn 6 Oh Amelia, how I hate you. Soldiers are cannon fodder for Vanessa, but she has to dodge all of their hits. Again, level-up possibility is always there, but that doesn’t create much of a problem. This is a little more facepalm worthy. By having him crit the mage and simultaneously going on the forest (+1 def/20 avo), Kyle's crappy combat is actually salvageable. With 2 turns he can take out the 4 enemies. There’s also the option of sending a different unit than Kyle to mop up these enemies and the 3 earlier soldiers. Movement’s not an issue at all. I’ll look at Garcia and Artur. Turn 7 No need for pics, Kyle (or whoever replaces him) finish cleaning up, and Seth kills Amelia in the most overkill fashion possible. Vanessa could kill her too, as she’s in range. She’ll gain like 6 exp to Seth’s 1, and advance her weapon level a bit, for what that’s worth.
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
I went back and checked, and Vanessa has failed to gain def in 4 of her levelups. Some of those are in ridiculous enemy phases, but some of them are in very manipulable positions. Perhaps it's worth it to go back and improve some of her past levelups?
Player (99)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
The only reason I hesitate to do that is because this would mess with the RNG and perhaps make hex editing impossible, so I'd probably lose a lot of my progress. If it's necessary, so be it. I don't think it would help much, at any rate. It makes no difference on turn 2, turn 3 she might be able to take an extra hit or two, and then beyond that her enemy phases are tame, facing only 1-2 enemies until the turn 6 soldiers. Also, every time we throw a point of def her way, the manipulations increase by a factor of 5 (stupid 20% growth), so it may not even save time at all. The idea of switching routes interests me, it would be pretty ironic to change routes because of 6 reinforcements. I'll look into it and report back.
Player (99)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Ephraim’s route Chapter 9 This map is pretty long, looks to be an 8 turn just by counting squares. 37 enemies and 8 reinforcements, 45 total. The map’s linear nature lends itself to training Vanessa though, which is a huge plus. Chapter 10 Looks like an easy 3 turn. Just need to make sure Ephraim can kill the boss. Whoa. Note that with just 1 extra point of strength, Ephraim can 1HKO with a crit. This is base level Ephraim, so it shouldn’t be too difficult. The other enemies don’t cause him a problem, and Vanessa could kill 1 anyway if they get in the way. Also, it may be possible to recruit Cormag with Tana (might cost a turn though). More importantly, if he can’t be recruited, he can be killed for a droppable elysian whip, which equals a promoted Vanessa. Chapter 11 I kid you not, a 1 turn might be possible here, though it requires Cormag. Look at how few enemies are on the map to start with. That’s a whopping 10 enemies. Though, add just 1 turn and this happens: 0_o 21 additional enemies, and if my memory serves me well, some of those monsters don’t attack you unless you’re right besides them. There’s about 4-6 reinforcements per turn until turn 6. Chapter 12 I’m glad this isn’t a rout map, otherwise this would be a serious headache. Rather, you defeat a pathetic monster boss. Taking a quick look at it, I can get Seth to the boss in 4 turns so long as nobody gets in his way. In my quick run through, 2 enemies blocked him on turn 3, but Vanessa could kill 1, while Duessel takes out the other. Scary amount of enemies, 48 on turn 2. Good thing I won’t have to face most of them hopefully. Chapter 13 Nasty rout map, 44 enemies on turn 1, and 11 reinforcements by turn 5. That’s up to 55 enemies I’ll have to KO. Thankfully, Seth, Vanessa, Ephraim, Duessel, Gerik and Tethys can cover a lot of ground fast. This map is easily superior to C12 Eirika with those stupid spiders and mountains. Chapter 14 Seems like a 5 turn by counting squares, maybe even 4 considering Tethys, though the doors are a bit of an obstacle. Another consideration, Vigarde is freaking tough. 55 hp/24 def/62 avo is insane (remember throne tiles give 3 def/30 avo). 10 luck also makes him hard to crit, you need 22 skill just to get 1 crit on him unless the weapon used has a crit boost. Seth has 19 at the moment. For a crit 1HKO, you need 43 atk. Seth currently has 20 str, with a heavy spear he has 47 atk. If he can’t crit, a 2RKO is easy. What a beast. Now let’s compare to Eirika route. Eirika’s route Chapter 9 Annoying 7 turn rout map. I’ve already covered the details. C9 Eph route might be faster due to not needing to rout. Chapter 10 A seize map that can be 3 turned pretty easily thanks to bypassing the mountain. I’d say this map ties C10 Eph route. Chapter 11 Another rout map, 41 initial enemies but only 1 reinforcement on turn 9 according to serenes forest. This took Cheetah 8 turns, though I’ll admit the last 2 were pretty uneventful. I’m almost certain C11 Eph route is faster. Chapter 12 This map should be compared to C13 Eph, since that is also a rout map. Regardless, Eph route wins easily, as this map is just absurd. Gigantic map with low move enemies in hard to reach places? No thanks. Chapter 13 This map compares well to C12 Eph, in fact it’s considerably faster since Aias can be killed on turn 1. Pretty big victory for Eir route. Chapter 14 C14 Eph wins, no contest. This map takes Cheetah 8 turns to complete, whereas I estimate Ephraim’s takes 4-5. Final Verdict Eirika Route Advantage: Chapter 13 Ephraim Route Advantage: Chapter 11 Chapter 12 Chapter 14 Ties: Chapter 9? Chapter 10 Overall: Ephraim Route In fact, I can see Ephraim route being faster even on normal mode, and I didn’t even take into consideration Vanessa’s earlier promotion, which should do wonders for her. Edit: I'm watching Cheetah's old abandoned run where he goes on Ephraim route, and he got Tana to recruit Cormag on turn 2. This makes Ephraim route even more awesome. Edit 2: 1 turn of chapter 11 (pirate ship) is confirmed to be impossible. Sucks too, only 2 enemies are out of range. Edit 3: Just had a serious look at C9 Eph. The best I could come up with is a 10 turn strategy, and Vanessa barely sees any combat. She's forced to kill 2 cavaliers late in the map, and maybe 1-2 shaman (they're less pesky towards her survival). That would get her 2 level-ups at best. Then, next chapter she sees no combat at all, as it's a 2 turn and she's occupied ferrying Ephraim. By the time she gets to C11, her combat is unsalvageable, and Cormag is superior to her in every way, except for spd/avo. Even then, a promotion brings him to 14 spd, the bosskill brings him to 15, and that's good enough to double a shocking number of enemies in the game. I know this because I remember hyping the crap out of Duessel in fire emblem debates back in the day, and he only has 12 speed. All to say, if I go Eph route, Cormag becomes my main flier, which is fine I guess. Some other considerations for Eph route: I have to trade Ephraim back his Reignleif, and also Orson's silver sword at the end of 5x. The Reignleif should be obvious, it allows him to kill the C10 boss, and the silver sword allows Seth to 1HKO enemies while carrying Ephraim, which proves to be useful right away. Also, I need to stack up on way more javelins.
Player (99)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Triple posting is for winners. Is Vanessa worth it? (Eirika route) I’m reviewing Cheetah’s run through Eirika route, taking note of everything he has Vanessa do. Chapter 9: She attacks 1 enemy archer. Chapters 10-11: She doesn’t attack at all. Chapter 12: 2 mogalls on turn 1,1 mogall on turn 2, 1 bael on turn 3 (player phase critkill), 1 bael on turn 4, 1 bonewalker on turn 5, critkills the boss on turn 6 (100 exp gain), and on turn 6 enemy phase she finally sees an assault, 1 bonewalker and 4 gargoyles. She 1RKOes all except one, which she kills on turn 7 player phase to end the chapter. Chapter 13: One armor kill. Chapter 14: Not even deployed Chapter 15: 2 mercs on turn 1, 1 berserker on turn 2, 2 pegasi on turn 3, 3 peg kills on turn 4. With this meagre combat exposure (excluding the end of chapter 12), Cheetah managed to get Vanessa to level 14. Presumably by using her the way I plan to in chapter 9, she’ll be even higher, level 16 at least. With a promotion she’s now a destroyer, no questions asked. Even if she did have problems, I watched C16 and she only combats on player phase, C17 is a 2 turn bosskill (she’s the bosskiller) and C18 is gorgon eggs chapter, aka free experience bonanza. So basically, chapter 9 travesty aside, Vanessa can definitely hold her own weight. I estimate she’ll get 4 level-ups in C9, possibly 5. Since she faces a lot of combat at the end of C12, I decided to give it a closer look. I gave Vanessa +5 in every stat compared to how she starts C9, and tested her out. Vs Mogalls: Almost 1HKOes with a javelin and doubles, ownage. They only do chip damage back to her. Vs baels: She can 1HKO with a steel lance crit, and 1RKO otherwise with a hit+crit using other weapons. Vs the boss: Can 1RKO with a steel lance hit + crit, or an axereaver crit. Most importantly, vs gargoyles: 1-3 damage away from 1RKOing with an iron lance, doubles with a steel lance when the gargoyles are weighed down. Considering she’ll level at least once before she faces any gargoyles, seems like a non-issue. Defensively, I’m not too concerned. Most of her combat is on player phase 1HKOes, and she’s only 4HKOed by iron lance gargoyles at 49-59 display hit (iron/steel lance, respectively). Steel lance gargoyles obviously kill her faster, but with lower hitrates. I didn’t see anything too worrisome outside of that. Monsters are as pathetic on hard mode as they are on normal, and all the pre-promotes (Seth, Saleh, Dozla, etc) still dominate in their roles. The only thing that might be changed is swapping Kyle for Gerik in C11. Routes compared (again) I’m not entirely convinced Ephraim route is better, so I’m going to look at some things in more detail. First off, for all rout maps, I want to know how many enemies we’re facing. Eirika route C9: 29 + 15 reinforcements = 44 C10: Not rout C11: 39 C12: 38 + 12 reinforcements = 50 C13: Not rout C14: Not rout Overall: 133 Ephraim route C9: 32 + 4 reinforcements = 36 (there’s more but that’s all Seth will face) C10: Not rout C11: 31 + 4-17 reinforcements = 35-48 C12: Not rout C13: 44 + 11 = 55 C14: Not rout Overall: 126-139 Very, very similar numbers. Hard to tell which route is better than the other without considering all the other variables at play (map size, for instance). My main concern with Eph route is C12 Eph vs C13 Eir (both bosskill maps). Cheetah completes C13 Eir in a mere 1891 frames. Looking at his older run that goes on Eph route, it takes him 12407 frames. Now, his level of play is a lot lower in the older run, and he does weird things like train Ephraim and Tana in that chapter, but even generously taking away 3000 frames for that, that still puts C13 Eir a whopping 7516 frames ahead, that’s over 2 minutes! Now let’s compare C11. Eir route: 18886 frames Eph route: 24048 frames Whoa, 5162 frame difference, well over a minute! Not so fast though. The play in Cheetah’s old run is less optimized than his published run, and he only manages a 6 turn on the pirate ship, allowing all the reinforcements to show up. Also, Cormag promotes, which costs around 1100 frames. Vanessa eventually promotes in the other run, so these 2 events should cancel out. Here’s an interesting calculation to consider: If the pirate ship can be 3 turned, then 35/48 possible enemies will show up, or about 73% of all possible enemies. Taking the # of frames to beat the pirate ship and multiplying it by 0.73 gives 17535 frames, which actually puts it ahead of Eir route. Of course this is a very simplistic calculation, but it goes to show the difficulty in comparing rout maps. Man, this is a hard decision. Let’s review the comparison: Chapter 9: The assumption is that Ephraim route is faster, despite being 3 turns longer. Seth handles ~95% of the combat, and fewer enemies are attacked overall. Whereas, on Eir route, Vanessa has to burn thousands of RNs just to pull her weight in the 7 turn strategy. The problem is, it’s really hard to know how much faster one chapter is compared to the other without TASing them both. I’ll probably test run TAS both chapters from a snapshot, and with some codebreaker codes on, most notably infinite use javelins. Chapter 10: Very safe to call this one a tie, the 2 maps are just so identical it’s not even funny. Chapter 11: Hard to conclude without seeing what turn count I can achieve in the pirate ship. Theoretically the pirate ship should be faster since the enemies are fare more condensed, and there’s much less ground to cover. C12 Eir/C13 Eph: Cheetah 5 turns this in his old run, meaning we have 55 enemies vs 50, which puts Eir route at an advantage in that sense. However, this map is way more compact than C12 Eir. It’s a 22x22 grid, or 484 squares. Eir’s map however, is a 20x30 grid, or 600 squares. Okay, perhaps not a big difference as I’d imagined, though the enemies are more centered on Eph route than they are on Eir, where enemies are all over the place in mountains and such. Once again I did compare Cheetah’s old run to his newer one, and sure enough Eir route wins again by like 10k frames. This is rather meaningless though, as Cheetah’s old run was doing very strange things like acquiring a barrier staff, promoting Gerik, having Gerik miss an easy hit on a soldier, and having Seth and Duessel stuck to each other like glue the whole time (you should spread out your units as much as possible when routing to cover the maximum possible area). This is also why I’m hesitant to make any conclusive decisions based on these frame comparisons. C14: In Cheetah’s run only 21 enemies are killed, so despite the long map, the actual amount of combat involved is very low. I had a quick look at 14 Eph and easily 6 turned it, wasn’t even trying to use Tethys or rescue chains effectively. The enemies faced is astoundingly low, in the realm of 12-17 enemies. This map WILL save a considerable amount of time. Oh yeah, I forgot to account for the route differences for C15 and 16. They’re actually kinda significant. Chapter 15 Eirika Ephraim The number of enemies seems to be exactly the same, but the placement and type of enemies varies a little. In particular, Eph route has a lot more dark mages, which makes 1-2 range more important. I read through the earlier posts in this thread, and apparently Eph route saves a turn due to better unit positioning. Chapter 16 Eirika Ephraim Counting squares on Eph gives 6 turns when you factor in Tethys and swiftsoles, which is 1 turn slower than Cheetah. Reinforcements are triggered by location, not turn count, so that shouldn’t create a significant difference. I’m more concerned about all the time lost watching status staves miss, having enemies move that won’t suicide into anyone, additional killed enemies, etc. None of that is an issue in losing a turn on a rout map like the previous chapter. I think C16 Eir outweighs C15 Eph, albeit insignificantly. Now what’s my final conclusion? Gah! My gut feeling tells me Eir route is superior even with the added difficulty of C9, but the only way to properly know would be to TAS both routes, which is insanely time consuming just to test. I kind of want to do Ephraim route because I find it more interesting, and it would add variety to me and Cheetah’s submissions, as viewers would be able to watch both routes TASed.
Player (99)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Final Verdict Coming Up! Chapter 11 C11 Eph mode (Pirate ship) 3 turn is confirmed to be impossible. In fact, the chapter is very problematic because a lot of enemies refuse to even attack you unless you’re right besides them. Some screens to illustrate: None of these enemies want to attack you. I’m dead serious. Putting a unit on each of the red tiles would kill all the required enemies on enemy phase. The ones I crossed out are killed with javelins on player phase. Even 4 turning means you have to face 41 enemies, that’s 2 more than C11 Eir route. But realistically only a 5 turn can be achieved because Tana and Vanessa don’t have the combat to take on gargoyles, or even mogalls. This adds another 5 enemies, and the losses start to become apparent. A quick test shows me that killing an enemy that has an opportunity to counter takes roughly 298 frames. Multiply that by 7 enemies and you have 2086 frames lost from killing those extra enemies. The fact that C11 Eir route is bigger cannot compensate for this difference. It doesn’t take that long to move characters (2 frames/square + lag between menus), and besides, you have to move fliers all over the place in C11 Eph route to kill some mogalls/gargoyles. So, I can conclusively say that C11 Eir > C11 Eph. Chapter 12 Eir vs Chapter 13 Eph I TASed C13 Eph and achieved a 4 turn. For this to sync you need to activate this codebreaker code: 3202BEEF 0022. This is a code that keeps Cormag’s hp at 34, I accidentally left it on after planning the 4 turn. It might be simpler for me just to encode the chapter. Some things to note: Normally Selena attacks Cormag, and has a ~66% chance of hitting him. However, for testing purposes I juiced up his res, hence why she’s attacking Seth, whom she only hits ~50% of the time. Doesn’t affect the manipulations much in the end, though. Another thing you might’ve noticed is Ephraim has more move than he should, as I hacked him up to make reaching this chapter considerably easier. Doesn’t make any difference in the actual TAS, as Vanessa could easily take over the RN burns, and I even do that on the last turn. Also, I was pretty lazy with optimization, I used auto-fire a lot for instance. This should easily be compensated for by the fact that I didn’t care about Seth and Cormag’s level-up, and even if it didn’t, it’s only a few frames here and there. The bulk of the chapter comes from enemy phase. So here’s the comparison: C13 Eirika: 22461 C13 Ephraim: 23972 C13 Eir has a 1511 frame advantage. But wait, Gerik’s promotion costs a whopping 1267 frames. That reduces the advantage to 244 frames (~4 seconds), possibly less with tighter optimization. Chapter 14 Managed a 5 turn on C13 Eph route. The only things I have to say: a lot of time will be added for RNG manipulation here because I juiced up Duessel’s hit, but more importantly Seth and Duessel’s res. This also means the berserker druids don’t target me, and they have staff accuracy in the high 80s-low 90s range. Dodging 2 in 1 turn is already around a 1% chance. Quick frame count comparison: C14 Eir route: 13397 C14 Eph route: 14977 This is… shocking. I expected C14 Eph to be much faster, it’s actually 1580 frames (26 seconds) slower! What’s worse is that each berserk attempt costs a few hundred frames, all 4 would add another 1000 frames easily, and maybe add in another 500 frames for dodging the staves and other things (hitrates, dodging damaging hits). That would put C14 Eir almost a full minute ahead. So, here’s the tally: C9 Eph > C9 Eir (unkown amount) C10 Eph = C10 Eir C11 Eph < C11 Eir (unknown amount) C12 Eph < C13 Eir (~7516 frames) C13 Eph = C12 Eir (244 frame difference) C14 Eph < C14 Eir (~3000 frames) For Eph route to win, C9 Eph would have to save almost 10516 frames (~3 minutes) by itself. That’s just not happening. C9 Eph has 8 less enemies to contend with, which would save around 2384 frames (298 / enemy in my earlier calculations). Now let’s add up some of Vanessa’ crazy manipulations required. 357 frames on turn 2 + 150 frames on turn 3 + 125 frames turn 4, and nothing significant the rest of the map = 632 frames. Let’s triple that to account for other manipulations in the chapter. That’s 1896 frames. That sums up to 4280 frames lost, not even half of the advantage of C9 Eir route. Also, C9 Eir route has a larger map, and takes more turns, which likely means more enemy movement. Also, I reviewed Cheetah’s old run, and he actually handled Phantom ship pretty well. He was 5162 frames behind compared to C11 Eir, 4062 when taking away Cormag’s promotion. 5 turning only reduces the enemy count by 2, another 600 frames roughly. There’s still a 3462 frame difference (~1 minute), and I won’t even be able to use Tana or Vanessa as effectively for killing mogalls/gargoyles. Basically, the evidence is overwhelming that Eir route is faster. That’s my final decision. Only took me 5 gigantic posts 0_o
Player (99)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Chapter 9 Complete Because of this evil chapter, I’ve gone from 2116 frames ahead to 5520 frames behind! Well, with more starting enemies, 6 extra reinforcements and wild amounts of manipulation, what did you expect? Some notes: If you’re wondering why I chose Garcia, it’s because I desperately need a 3rd attacker, and my only other viable options are Kyle and Artur. Kyle simply doesn’t have enough crit while Artur doesn’t 1HKO when critting. Nonetheless, I have to squeeze every ounce of potential out of Garcia. On 2 occasions I have to manipulate a mercenary reinforcement’s luck to be 3 so that Garcia can pull 1 crit on them. I also limit the number of attacks he’s exposed to per enemy phase, and am basically forced to stick him on a forest to give him any realistic chance of survival (his avo without it is 19). Turn 2 enemy phase was hell, as expected. I tested 2000 RNs looking for a sequence where Vanessa survives, crits 2/3 mercs, gets str/skl/spd in her level-up, and the merc reinforcement spawns with 3 luck. I can’t tell you how many times that reinforcement merc spawned with 4 luck and ruined otherwise amazing RNG sequences, too many hair pulling moments… I settle for everything I just described but with only 1/3 crits, as I get this outcome in only 488 RNs IIRC. I timed that killing an extra merc on the next enemy phase costs roughly 300 frames, so even burning 5 RNs/frame, the double crit scenario would have to take place within 1500 RNs to truly be advantageous, and 488 + 1500 ~ 2000, hence why I tested that far. It’s interesting to see how quickly Vanessa grows in a single chapter. She levels up 5 times, and on each one I painstakingly force str/skl/spd as a minimum. It pays off almost right away, as midway through the chapter she doubles and 1RKOes a myrmidon I thought she needed to crit, and 1RKOes a merc later on without needing a crit either. ============================================================= Now, to more general matters: I’m concerned with the amount of javelins I have left. Here’s the breakdown: Eirika has 9 Vanessa has 20 Seth has 4, 10, and 3 That’s it. There’s still 3 rout maps left in the game (C11, C12, C15), so there’s a slight chance I might need 1-2 more javelins compared to Cheetah due to higher enemy density. Keeping my fingers crossed I could hex that without too much trouble. I’m also keen on testing out the enemy control glitch, see if I can get it to work without PWASE, and where it would be most useful. I’m certainly going to use it in the gorgon eggs chapter, at the very least.
Active player (276)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
I'd say you've done the best you could given the circumstances. You'll make that time back as the TAS goes on, I'd think. As for enemy control, I'm only familiar with FE7's version (and I don't even think it is possible in FE6, there's likely only one place it could happen and that's a gaiden so I'll not even see it for the normal run). Good luck with finding anything.
Rolanmen1
He/Him
Experienced player (755)
Joined: 2/20/2009
Posts: 569
Location: Dominican Republic
Serenes Quote
Note: It has been reported that this also works on normal tiles, but the chances of success are very very slim.
I myself tried this some time ago, but failed, you should also try it.
Player (99)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Chapter 11 Complete Overall advantage C1-8: 2078 frames C9: -5544 frames (-7622 frames) C10: -5495 (+49 frames) C11: -7462 (-1967 frames) Chapters 1-9 Tons and tons of hex editing. I change at least half a dozen trades, all in an effort to buy an extra javelin, have Vanessa keep her door key (she uses it in C11), and to keep all my main unit’s inventories clean (no vulneraries for example). I also get rid of a lot of unnecessary trades through this process. Note that I often resort to dropping items since it’s almost as fast as a trade, and some units like Seth just can’t afford to sacrifice any slots for useless items. Chapter 10 My strategy is basically identical to Cheetah’s, except for a subtle difference. Based on how I position my fliers on turn 1, I am able to drop Eirika in a space such that she can’t get attacked at 1 range (there’s an archer to her right), which saves me from having to see her level-up. The downside is that the archer must be taken out the next turn, but it’s still a decent net gain of 49 frames. Note: I found something rather groundbreaking. While hex editing, I noticed that delaying any action by 1 frame would affect the RNG state when Seth faced the boss. By being 1 frame suboptimal with my movements, I could make 161 RNs pass before the boss attacked instead of 162, though any further suboptimal input wouldn’t change this. I’ll have to look into this more, but this should be a way to counteract the RNG “skipping” over favourable outcomes. Chapter 11 Thanks to Vanessa becoming a powerhouse in the span of a chapter, I am able to use her as a primary combatant, which allows me to save 2 turns and also avoid recruiting Dozla and L’Arachel. I also deploy 3 extra units: Franz for a javelin trade with Seth, Tana to burn RNs, and Gerik to take care of 6 revenant reinforcements. But then, why am I still losing frames compared to Cheetah? Simple, those 6 monsters Gerik faces don’t even show up on normal mode. At ~300 frames/skirmish, that alone would put me behind 1800 frames, which is very close to the actual deficit I have. Added manipulations probably take up the rest. Some final notes: Vanessa doesn’t crit the entombed enemy she faces because she can’t. He (it?) has 14 luck. This works out well anyway because Dozla steals the kill, and saves Vanessa from a level-up she doesn’t need. You might also notice that on the second to last enemy phase, I have Seth equip a 1 range weapon and fail to counter an archer. While this does cost some time, I also save a substantial amount of javelin uses I desperately need. =========================== Now, as long as hard mode keeps throwing more enemies at me compared to normal mode, I don’t have a chance in hell of beating Cheetah’s run. Most of my improvements save a matter of frames, whereas having to face extra enemies costs seconds.
Rolanmen1
He/Him
Experienced player (755)
Joined: 2/20/2009
Posts: 569
Location: Dominican Republic
It's ok anyway, this run will still be published because of one reason, there is a TASVideos rule that specifies that a TAS must be in Hard Mode if possible without SRAM, that said, your run will be published as long as it seems optimal enough on Hard Mode, and obviously, Cheetah's run will become obsoleted.
Editor, Player (94)
Joined: 5/27/2006
Posts: 239
plus it seems like you're putting a ton of effort into it and it seems pretty high quality, so it'll definitely get published.
Skilled player (1640)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Rolanmen1 wrote:
It's ok anyway, this run will still be published because of one reason, there is a TASVideos rule that specifies that a TAS must be in Hard Mode if possible without SRAM, that said, your run will be published as long as it seems optimal enough on Hard Mode, and obviously, Cheetah's run will become obsoleted.
As a judge, what Rolanmen1 said, so take comfort.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Player (99)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Yeah, I figured as much. Chapter 13 is now complete, but I've decided to stop posting WIPs because I'm confident in my ability to handle the run, and I want there to be some surprise factor once the submission rolls in. If you really want to see the WIP, I'll PM it. ===================================================== I found something very interesting when trying to manipulate a Dozla critical on a long enemy phase. It seems the RNG has a stabilizing effect the longer an enemy phase endures. This discovery was based on being very frustrated as Dozla failed to procure an 18% critical over the span of 100 RNs. I used the enemy phase script just before he got attacked, and sure enough 21 crits occurred, which is very close to the expected value of 18. This wasn’t a case of terrible luck either, as missing an 18% crit 100 times in a row is about a 2.41 x 10^(-7) % chance. So, what’s going on here? I did a test where I tracked how many RNs were burned before Dozla was attacked, advanced the RNG by 1, and repeated. Quickly I noticed a pattern: 138 137 136 135 138 136 139 134 ===== 147 146 145 144 143 142 141 140 139 138 ===== 142 141 140 (Stopped here) Notice in the 2nd column in particular, the same outcome is forced over and over again 10 times in a row! As I advance the RNG by 1 on player phase, 1 less RN is burned on enemy phase before Dozla is attacked, hence the “stabilizing” effect. So in those 100 RNs, I may have only gone through 10 outcomes. Missing an 18% crit 10 times in a row is still a minuscule chance, but at least in the realm of sanity. I hope someone can find more information on this, but I do know for certain this is going to discourage ambitious enemy phase manipulations, particularly for rout maps (C15 is the only one left, thankfully).
Active player (276)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
The RNG fluctuates depending on what actions have occurred in a given enemy phase. It mostly comes down to whether attacks miss in an enemy phase, since only 2 RNs are used there, 3 for a hit, and 4 for a crit in FE8's case. So, you are bound to get a lot of variances like this. Makes it harder for planning, since the number of RNs used are not fixed when starting EP at a given RN.
Player (99)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Just a quick question, I've reached a point where the most ideal level-up I can give to any of my main units is a 0-stat level-up. Would you guys rather see that or go the other extreme, as in getting my units excessively good level-ups (5-8 stats)? The latter costs time, no doubt, but some viewers might find it more entertaining.
Active player (276)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
I say go for small (0-2) point level ups if you can. Once units start capping the offensive stats there's not much that needs to be raised, although a bit of Luck is not a bad idea since it adds to both accuracy and avoid.
Post subject: Some Useful Lua Scripts
Player (99)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posting some useful lua scripts I've been using for a while into one convenient place. Credit goes to amaurea, FatRatKnight and DarkKobold for the scripts, and Rolanmen1 and Toothache42 for helping me a bit with memory addresses and ram searches. Download rngdisplay.lua
Language: lua

function nextrng(r1, r2, r3) return AND(XOR(SHIFT(r3, 5), SHIFT(r2, -11), SHIFT(r1, -1), SHIFT(r2,15)),0xFFFF) end function rngsim(n) local rngbase=0x03000000 local result = { memory.readword(rngbase+4), memory.readword(rngbase+2), memory.readword(rngbase+0) } for i = 4, n do result[i] = nextrng(result[i-3],result[i-2],result[i-1]) end return result end local phit = 0x0203A550 local pdmg = 0x0203E1BE local pcrt = 0x0203A556 local ehit = 0x0203A5D0 local edmg = 0x0203E1BC local ecrt = 0x0203A5D6 while true do local nsim = 20 rngs = rngsim(nsim) for i = 1, nsim do gui.text(228, 8*(i-1), string.format("%3d", rngs[i]/655)) end gui.text(210,0,"RNG1:") gui.text(210,8,"RNG2:") gui.text(210,16,"RNG3:") gui.text(194,24,"Next RNs:") gui.text(0,0,"Player") gui.text(0,8,"Hit: " .. memory.readbyte(phit)) gui.text(0,16,"Damage: " .. memory.readbyte(pdmg)) gui.text(0,24,"Crit: " .. memory.readbyte(pcrt)) gui.text(0,40,"Enemy") gui.text(0,48,"Hit: " .. memory.readbyte(ehit)) gui.text(0,56,"Damage: " .. memory.readbyte(edmg)) gui.text(0,64,"Crit: " .. memory.readbyte(ecrt)) emu.frameadvance() end
Download FE_RNGCounter.lua
Language: lua

R2u= memory.readword --***************************************************************************** local function roll(A,B,C) --***************************************************************************** return bit.band(0xFFFF, bit.bxor( bit.rshift(A, 5), bit.lshift(B,11), bit.rshift(B,15), bit.lshift(C, 1) ) ) end --***************************************************************************** local function unroll(A,B,C) --***************************************************************************** --Returns what the previous RNG was. local r= bit.band(0xFFFE,bit.bxor(A, bit.rshift(B, 5), bit.lshift(C, 11))) r= bit.bor(r,bit.band(0x0001,bit.bxor(B,bit.rshift(C,5)))) return bit.bor( bit.lshift(bit.band(0x0001,r),15), bit.rshift(bit.band(0xFFFE,r), 1) ) end local Raddr= 0x03000000 local R= {R2u(Raddr), R2u(Raddr+2), R2u(Raddr+4)} --***************************************************************************** local function RNGmatch(a,b,c) --***************************************************************************** return (R2u(Raddr) == a) and (R2u(Raddr+2) == b) and (R2u(Raddr+4) == c) end --***************************************************************************** local function AdvanceRNG() --***************************************************************************** local RR= {R[1], R[2], R[3]} for i= 0, 2000 do if RNGmatch(R[1],R[2],R[3]) then return i end if RNGmatch(RR[1],RR[2],RR[3]) then R= RR; return -i end table.insert(R,1,roll(R[1],R[2],R[3])); R[4]= nil table.insert(RR,unroll(RR[1],RR[2],RR[3])); table.remove(RR,1) end R[1]= R2u(Raddr) R[2]= R2u(Raddr+2) R[3]= R2u(Raddr+4) return false end local Count, Fail= 0, 0 --***************************************************************************** local function CountRolls() --***************************************************************************** local c= AdvanceRNG() if c then Count= Count+c else Fail= Fail+1; Count= 0 end end --***************************************************************************** local function ShowRolls() --***************************************************************************** gui.text(1,1,Count,"green") gui.text(1,9,Fail,"red") end gui.register(ShowRolls) while true do CountRolls() emu.frameadvance() end
Download Ephase.lua
Language: lua

BattleCheck =1000; -- emu.speedmode('turbo'); CharacterStore = 0x0202AB78; --CharacterStore = 0x0202BCE8; EnemyStore = CharacterStore + 0x3E * 0x48; Phase = 0x0202BCFF; key1 ={}; key1['A']=true; StartF = movie.framecount(); StatM = {'HpC','Lvl','EXP','Hp','Str','Skl','Spd','Def','Res','Lck','Con', 'X', 'Y'}; OffstC = {0x11, 0x8, 0x9,0x10, 0x12, 0x13, 0x14, 0x15, 0x16, 0x17, 0x18, 0x0E, 0x0F}; EnemyM = {'Alive','HpC','X','Y'}; OffstM = {0x00,0x11,0x0E, 0x0F}; Matcher = {}; newcount = 0; for checks = 0,0x3D,1 do Matcher[checks] = {}; for i = 1,13,1 do Matcher[checks][i] = memory.readbyte(CharacterStore+OffstC[i]+checks*0x48); end; end; Estats = {}; for checks = 0,49,1 do Matcher[checks+0x3E] = {}; if memory.readbyte(EnemyStore +0x11+checks*0x48) > 0 then Estats[checks] = {}; Estats[checks][1] = false; Estats[checks][2] = false; Matcher[checks+0x3E][1] = true; for i = 2,4,1 do Matcher[checks+0x3E][i] = memory.readbyte(EnemyStore+OffstM[i]+checks*0x48); end; else Matcher[checks+0x3E][1] = false; end; end; function nextrng(r1, r2, r3) return AND(XOR(SHIFT(r3, 5), SHIFT(r2, -11), SHIFT(r1, -1), SHIFT(r2, 15)),0xFFFF) end rngbase=0x03000000; RNGCheck = savestate.create(); savestate.save(RNGCheck); Unique = 0; FClist = {}; outsl = {}; RNGList = {}; TempC = {}; TempE = {}; Pstat = {}; outs2l = {}; OfX = 6; OfY = 42; SX = 5; SY = 5; for curord = 0,BattleCheck-1,1 do savestate.load(RNGCheck); --RNGLOOP for n = 1,curord,1 do Rtemp = nextrng(memory.readword(rngbase+4), memory.readword(rngbase+2), memory.readword(rngbase+0)); memory.writeword(rngbase+4, memory.readword(rngbase+2)); memory.writeword(rngbase+2, memory.readword(rngbase+0)); memory.writeword(rngbase+0, Rtemp); end; R = {}; for Rl = 0,4,2 do R[Rl/2] = memory.readword(rngbase+Rl); end; --PhaseLoop while memory.readbyte(Phase) == 128 do joypad.set(1,key1); key1.start = (not key1.start) or nil; emu.frameadvance(); gui.text(10,10, string.format('%d of %d done.', curord+1, BattleCheck)); end; outs = ""; for checks = 0,0x3D,1 do Pstat[checks] = false; for i = 1,11,1 do TempC[i] = memory.readbyte(CharacterStore+OffstC[i]+checks*0x48); end; if Matcher[checks][1] ~= TempC[1] then outs = outs .. string.format(' %d %dHP', checks, TempC[1] - Matcher[checks][1]); if TempC[1] == 0 then Pstat[checks] = true; outs = outs .. '-Dead'; end; end; if Matcher[checks][3] ~= TempC[3] then outs = outs .. string.format(' %d %dXP', checks, TempC[3] - Matcher[checks][3]); end; if Matcher[checks][2] ~= TempC[2] then outs = outs .. string.format(' %d +%dLvl', checks, TempC[2] - Matcher[checks][2]); for j = 4,11,1 do outs = outs .. string.format(' %d %d%s', checks, TempC[j] - Matcher[checks][j],StatM[j]); end; end; end; outs2 = ""; for checks = 0,49,1 do for i = 2,4,1 do TempC[i] = memory.readbyte(CharacterStore+OffstM[i]+(checks+0x3E)*0x48); end; if Matcher[checks+0x3E][1] then Estats[checks][1] = false; Estats[checks][2] = false; if Matcher[checks+0x3E][2] ~= TempC[2] then outs2 = outs2 .. string.format(' E%d %dHP', checks, TempC[2] - Matcher[checks+0x3E][2]); if TempC[2] == 0 then Estats[checks][1] = true; outs2 = outs2 .. '-Dead'; end; end; if (Matcher[checks+0x3E][3] ~= TempC[3]) or (Matcher[checks+0x3E][4] ~= TempC[4]) then Estats[checks][2] = true; Estats[checks][3] = Matcher[checks+0x3E][3]; Estats[checks][4] = Matcher[checks+0x3E][4]; Estats[checks][5] = TempC[3]; Estats[checks][6] = TempC[4]; end; end; end; FC = movie.framecount() - StartF; IsUnique = true; for n = 1,Unique,1 do if FClist[n] == FC and outsl[n] == outs and outs2l[n] == outs2 then IsUnique = false; end; end; if IsUnique then -- emu.speedmode('normal'); Unique = Unique + 1; FClist[Unique] = FC; outsl[Unique] = outs; outs2l[Unique] = outs2; for i = 1,25,1 do gui.drawbox(0,0,320,240,'black','black'); gui.text(1,1,"Frames:" .. FC .. " RNG Distance: " .. curord); gui.text(1,10,string.format("RNGx00 = %d RNGx02 = %d RNGx04 = %d", R[0],R[1],R[2])); gui.text(1,20,outs); gui.text(1,30,outs2); gui.drawbox(3,40,238,160, 'black','white'); for checks = 0,0x3D,1 do if Matcher[checks][1] > 0 then if Pstat[checks] then X = Matcher[checks][12]; Y = Matcher[checks][13]; gui.drawbox(OfX+SX*X,SY*Y+OfY,OfX+SX*X+3,SY*Y+3+OfY,'Green','Blue'); else X = Matcher[checks][12]; Y = Matcher[checks][13]; gui.drawbox(OfX+SX*X,SY*Y+OfY,OfX+SX*X+3,SY*Y+3+OfY,'Green','Green'); end; end; end; for checks = 0,49,1 do if Matcher[checks+0x3E][1] then if Estats[checks][2] then X1 = OfX+SX*Estats[checks][3]+2; Y1 = OfY+SY*Estats[checks][4]+2; X2 = OfX+SX*Estats[checks][5]+2; Y2 = OfY+SY*Estats[checks][6]+2; gui.drawline(X1,Y1,X2,Y1,'blue'); gui.drawline(X2,Y1,X2,Y2,'blue'); if Estats[checks][1] then X = Estats[checks][5]; Y = Estats[checks][6]; gui.drawbox(OfX+SX*X,SY*Y+OfY,OfX+SX*X+3,SY*Y+3+OfY,'Red','Blue'); else X = Estats[checks][5]; Y = Estats[checks][6]; gui.drawbox(OfX+SX*X,SY*Y+OfY,OfX+SX*X+3,SY*Y+3+OfY,'Red','Red'); end; else if Estats[checks][1] then X = Matcher[checks+0x3E][3]; Y = Matcher[checks+0x3E][4]; gui.drawbox(OfX+SX*X,SY*Y+OfY,OfX+SX*X+3,SY*Y+3+OfY,'Red','Blue'); else X = Matcher[checks+0x3E][3]; Y = Matcher[checks+0x3E][4]; gui.drawbox(OfX+SX*X,SY*Y+OfY,OfX+SX*X+3,SY*Y+3+OfY,'Red','Red'); end; end; end; end; emu.frameadvance(); end; -- emu.speedmode('maximum'); end; end;
Active player (276)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
So, dondon151 released a series of patches for 5 of the Fire Emblem games. The only alteration is that the growth rates of all units have been reduced to 0%. These would be worthy hacks to be TASed, in addition to the regular versions of the games, since the playstyle will be so different and more characters would have to be used, meaning a more tactical experience. http://www.mediafire.com/?77mupw7xc62w90k The games that have patches are: Fire Emblem: Thracia 776 (SNES) Fire Emblem: Fuuin no Tsurugi (GBA) Fire Emblem (Blazing Sword) (GBA) Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones (GBA) Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon (DS) There are a couple of oddities with the patches (Xane in FEDS is effectively rendered useless, lacking his Imitate skill), but for the most part they seem to work fine.
Former player
Joined: 11/6/2010
Posts: 88
Location: Argentina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C_Tn5pXO_o I could test that CEG can also be done with torch staves. Was this already known? EDIT: I also tested that it works on FE7 as well.
Player (99)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
What an amazing find! Unfortunately, having looked into the trick in depth, I don’t think it would save time in any of the currently published TASes. The problem is that you can only control enemies that are already revealed and you can’t affect the fog whatsoever on enemy phase. Combine that with the extremely limited torch range on your magic users (excluding Pent), the time taken to actually acquire torches, the length of the torch animation and various situational factors, and the trick is basically rendered useless for TASing. A real pity too, given how much more versatile torch PWASE are compared to other PWASE. A quick chapter breakdown: FE7 C9: Beaten before FOW appears C18: No torch staff yet C20: The 2 turn can’t be sped up by controlling the boss C23: Same logic as above C26: Would actually be useful since Pent has an impressive torch radius of 9-10 and occasionally enemies densely populate certain portions of the map. FE8 C6: No torch staff yet C11: Seems to be slower based on the sheer number of torch uses needed to save turns. (Vbm) C19: Pointless since the chapter is 1 turned already. Now as far as I know, in FE7 the torch staff can only be acquired in the C21 secret shop, which will more than waste whatever time was gained in C26 procuring more crits. Nonetheless, the torch led me to discover a few more interesting properties of the control enemy glitch. For instance, the Control Enemy Glitch faq on gamefaqs is slightly wrong in describing how the glitch is performed. It states:
To perform the trick, you need two things. An enemy that can attack your unit, and a unit who cannot counterattack. To activate the glitch, you must end your turn, allow the enemy unit to attack your ally, then AFTER the HP bars vanish, but BEFORE the foe greys out, hard or soft reset your game.
The bit about counterattacking is inaccurate. All that matters is that the targeted enemy gets greyed out on the PWASE, which means you can hit the enemy without killing it. The stated timing is also inaccurate since you can get the glitch to work even slightly after the enemy’s greyed out. It was also cool to find out NPCs (ie “Other Phase” units) can be controlled using the same PWASE reset exploit. Edit: I crossed out a bunch of misinformation since it turns out you can control enemies within the fog.
Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 84
Vykan, I remember seeing sylux's stream controlling enemies that are in the fog in FE8, even if you couldn't see them. Maybe I am remembering wrong, or it might be something only in FE7?
Former player
Joined: 11/6/2010
Posts: 88
Location: Argentina
I believe have to clear some things out: You can control enemies covered by FOW (when you place the cursor on a FOW tile you can see, if you have unit window option active, you will see the window showing enemy's life, you can also press R). By the way, the PWASE remains active as long as the torch effect is active (I mean, you don't need to use a torch every time you want to use the glitch). I don't know if it's faster but you can buy a torch on serafew (I think you can't do it in the chapter but you can do it in the map after beating C5). Maybe you can kill Novala faster. I watched Rolanmen's Ch 18/19 in FE7, It was amazing, better than I expected. Edit: I noticed an increase of lag frames when a unit grays out in a PWASE. I don't know if you noticed that too.
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