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Posted: 5/30/2006 2:37 AM
Post subject: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
I've recently started a TAS of Fire Emblem 8. My WIP is currently up to chapter 5 and is available here. Some things to note: The goal of this run is not minimum frames, but minimum turns. I decided that this would be a more accurate measure of speed for a fire emblem game. Plus, I'm probably not up to the taske of a minimum frames game anyways. After careful consideration, I decided to do the run in normal mode. While the guidlines reccomend playing the game at the hardest difficulty, it takes on the order of 15 frames to advance the RNG by one number, so a hard mode run would be much less enjoyable to watch in my opinion. I have no idea whether Ephraim's route or Eirika's is faster, and I suspect they only differ by a few turns. Unless somebody figures out which is faster, I'm continuing on to Ephraim's route, as both easier to TAS and probably more entertaining to view (it has what are in my opinion some of the most memorable chapters in the game). Although my goal is minimum turns, I still aim for frame perfection in menu navigation and unit movement. However, it is entirely possible (though, I believe, unlikely) that I am off by a few frames. I will probably not correct such mistakes unless they are glaring, simply because they do not affect either my stated goal or viewer enjoyment.
Posted: 5/30/2006 4:27 AM
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Nitrodon
Active player (283)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
It does not take 15 frames to advance the RNG by one. In the worst case scenario, it takes 2 frames. Select the character, then press up-left and down-right (or up-right, down-left) in alternate frames. If you use the memory viewer, keep an eye on 03000000-03000005 to see the RNG advance. Also, the cursor moves faster if you hold B, and the enemy attack cursors (for lack of a better term) can be cancelled with A. L should be used on the map and in battle. For more advice, I direct you to my partial test run of the other US-released GBA Fire Emblem game. The run may be found here, and the relevant thread is here.
Posted: 5/30/2006 4:37 AM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
Really? I didn't realize that doing that would waste RNs (though I did know where RNs were stored in memory). I thought I had to circle around the character; I completely forgot about going diagonally. With that knowledge (plus the other things you reccomended), I'll probably start over, and do hard mode this time in accordance with the guidelines. EDIT: I take that back. Upon trying a hard mode run, I quickly realized that even with this much faster method of RNG abusing, the run would contain long segments of me trying to engineer double criticals and a dodge from Vanessa and Tana. Even two frames stack up if I'm wasting hundreds of RNs (presuming I even had the patience for that).
Posted: 5/30/2006 6:04 AM
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Nitrodon
Active player (283)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
That's just the simplest way to force the game to choose a path, not the fastest. The fastest way is to move the cursor to the end of the unit's movement range and move diagonally between two spaces. On a flying unit or cavalier with nothing blocking it, this gives an average of 4.8 RNs per frame.
Posted: 5/30/2006 5:03 PM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
I've gotten back up through chapter 2 and wanted to post my WIP early to see if I'm missing any other huge time-saving measures. It can be found here.
Posted: 5/30/2006 7:16 PM
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Molotov
Joined: 5/30/2006
Posts: 39
While I wouldn't call this a huge thing, I'd like to mention that the Prologue scene that displays Renais castle is skippable. That should save a few seconds, since you can't do anything while the location box is there. I like your use of Vanessa's critical hits (flying unit strategies are fun to watch, especially in a TAS). I must admit that I'd prefer pure speed (Normal/Hard), but minimum turns should be pretty interesting. The only problem is that to really achieve minimum turns, Tower abuse is probably necessary. This is only if you want to be technical about it, since I guess there would be a different category for such a thing...if it would be allowed at all (Tower abuse would be seriously boring). Speaking of a different category, would the control enemy glitch be possible in every chapter for a TAS? I've tried it with frame advance on Chapter 4 I think, but had no luck. Anyway, sorry to go on a little ramble there. The improvement you made looks good to me, and I wish you luck with this project. I'll be looking forward to it. I can also attempt to help with basic strategy ideas if you want. P.S. Nitrodon, I watched your practice run a while back and just wanted to say I found it amazing. O_o
Posted: 5/30/2006 7:21 PM
(Edited: 5/30/2006 10:11 PM)
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
I should say that I would count turns spent in the tower in the final total--thus making it not worth it. Also, the control enemy glitch is possible, but so cheap as to make a run completely pointless. Also, I did some testing, and I thought the Renais caslte could only be exited the first frame that the soldier was moving. I'll try again, though. Shouldn't be that hard to hex-edit in. I hex editted faster skipping of the chapter title display in my previous run when I discovered a faster method--pressing start on both the 1st and 3rd frames (either one by itself won't do anything). EDIT: you're right. I just had to press start before the location even appeared. Hex-edited in, and will be present in the next WIP.
Posted: 5/30/2006 8:15 PM
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Molotov
Joined: 5/30/2006
Posts: 39
I guess you're right about the Tower turn count, it's just that it doesn't show up in the final listing. Even if it wasn't counted, I doubt many people would want to watch super RNG abuse for good level ups for about 8+ characters. The control enemy glitch is something I think would be neat to watch, mainly because it's a difficult trick to do without PWASE. Seeing someone nail the trick on the first try every chapter would at least be a bit amusing, as you laugh at the enemy and their inability to win. Myrrh with Wretched Air and an early Naglfar might be added bonuses. As for Renais castle, I skipped it by mashing Start and A repeatedly, if I remember correctly. I doubt the A button really did anything though.
Posted: 5/30/2006 10:13 PM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
Leon doesn't even have Naglfar in the appearance in Narube river, and the first wretched air is held by the boss of that chapter 20 (at least I think it's 20...). My strategy for late levels will basically amount to: bolting the boss, have someone carry Ephraim (or Eirika, if someone can demonstrate her route is faster) in.
Posted: 5/31/2006 12:52 AM
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Nitrodon
Active player (283)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
It would be useful to get better stats on each levelup, at least for the characters you plan to use. HP: Don't bother manipulating this, as you get enough naturally. Str/Mag: Get this every level. It helps defeat enemies in fewer turns. Skl: Get this when it's not too much trouble. It makes it easier to manipulate critical hits. Spd: Get this every level. It helps you double enemies, defeating them that much more quickly. Def: More useful than it sounds. Helps you survive crowds of enemies. Don't worry about this too much, but take it when it's convenient. Res: Mostly useless in a FE7 TAS. I'd guess the same is true in FE8. Luck: I don't find this very useful, but it does help slightly. Of course, if you're manipulating some crazy sequence of dodges and criticals, that takes precedence over manipulating the levelup in the same turn.
Posted: 5/31/2006 1:36 AM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
I've been trying to abuse for levelups, but unfortunately nearly all of my levelups have fallen at times where I ahve to abuse for criticals/dodges. If I'm trying to critcal, I'll look ahead for another critical RN which may give me a better level up, but no such luck so far. I am only working on chapter 3, though. Plenty of time left for stat ups.
Posted: 6/1/2006 4:57 PM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
New WIP (up to chapter four) is available here.
Posted: 6/4/2006 6:18 AM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
WIP up through chapter six is up. I had a lot of fun on chapter 5x, with all the javelin hijinks.
Posted: 6/13/2006 10:15 PM
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captainobvious
Joined: 7/1/2005
Posts: 56
Location: Central Pennsylvania, USA
I'd say your progress was great, a chapter every few days, but then I realized it's been a week with no update... Oh no! Another abandoned speed-run!
That's what she said!
Posted: 6/14/2006 10:02 AM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
Not abandoned. I'm up through eight, but chapter nine is looking quite...challenging. I had finals last week, and I've been spending more time on Tales of Legendia (I've had it for three or so months and STILL haven't gotten around to beating it...). With your (much appreciated) prodding, I'll get to work on chapter nine now.
Posted: 6/14/2006 6:19 PM
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Sketchie
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 141
'kay. *prods you with a sharp, pointy stick* Get to work, slave! X3;
Posted: 6/14/2006 8:57 PM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
Chapter Nine is taking longer than expected (I got about half way through when I realized I had forgotten to bring along Forde and Kyle), so I figured I'd post my WIP (through chapter 8) here.
Posted: 6/18/2006 7:42 AM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
Have I mentioned yet that I hate chapter nine? Well, it's done, and I'm not redoing it unless I get a suggestion that will save at least two turns. I was a bit sloppy, using Tana once to RNG abuse despite the fact that I wasn't having her move that turn, but I was tired of redoing that turn. Here's the WIP. Note: Ordinarily I wouldn't have let Forde use the vulnerary, and would have opted for RNG abuse instead, but this method gave better level-ups. Chapter ten should go by quickly, being a defend chapter where I can beat the boss to end it early, but Chapter eleven will be a pain, considering it's a fog of war defeat all enemies chapter. I might have to look for a code that turns off fog of war, and hope that using it doesn't cause desyncs.
Posted: 6/18/2006 9:25 AM
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Nitrodon
Active player (283)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
RNG abusing with a character you don't intend to move isn't sloppy per se; it is quite useful when the last character to move needs to attack. In this instance, however, RNG abusing with Vanessa (the last character to move that turn) would have been better. The only idea I have for finishing the chapter in fewer turns is to let Seth carry a cavalier at the beginning. This will allow you to kill the door guard before Seth arrives, gaining one space. If you manage to maximize Seth's move for the rest of the turns, this should provoke the archer to attack Seth and be killed, thus saving another turn. As for fog of war, I don't have a code to eliminate it, but I have the next best thing. Note that anything affecting fog of war will cause timing desynchs, but this will not affect the RNG in any way. All units get vision +15 (side effects: status always normal, pure water ineffective) 4202BE7C 0F00 00000089 0048
Posted: 6/18/2006 7:39 PM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
The unfortunate thing about that is that I have to be careful to only attack enemies in their usual vision range, or else I will cause something that can't be duplicated without fog of war. As for chapter nine, I'm fairly sure that turn four is the earliest you can unlock the door, and Seth's moves were optimized after that (his penultimate move was only two spaces, but this did not effect the final turn count).
Posted: 6/28/2006 9:34 PM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
Major problem! I finished chapter 10, and began chapter 11, when I realized I needed more javelins. If this were FE7, I'd have to restart, but this is FE8, so I decided to just hex-edit in some shopping on the world map. Accordingly, I had Moulder (I picked him because he was never touched again, thus decreasing chance of desynchs) by 3 javelins after chapter 2. The movie played perfectly up until chapter 8, where I had problems. When I originally created the movie, Ephraim's group arrived in this formation: However, when playing back the movie after hex-editing, he arrived in this formation: Note that the RNG remains unchanged, as there are no desynchs at all up until this point. I've played around and have been unable to figure out the conditions for reverting Ephraim's group back to how it was. If neccesary, I'll hex-edit them moving back to where they ought to be, but that's a rather ugly solution. Hence, I'm putting it out to the other forum-goers here to help me out. Here is the desynching movie. If you can get it the resynch, you'll notice it completes chapter 10. Thank you in advance. PS: The discovery (by me at least) of a program which converts vbm's into readable txt files has motivated me to go back and fix the RNG wasting with Tana, once this problem is out of the way.
Posted: 6/28/2006 11:13 PM
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Nitrodon
Active player (283)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
There is a second RNG in the game, which until this post I assumed only affected the items in the desert and various graphical effects. That RNG (at 03000008-0300000b) is advanced when you do your shopping, causing a desynch when the game chooses a formation. The only way to advance that RNG before Ephraim shows up is to go into the item menu during your turn. I tested, and doing this 4 times will make Ephraim's troops arrive in the desired formation.
Posted: 6/29/2006 5:09 AM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
I found the RNG you're referring to, but it doesn't seem to effect this. I'll play around with having Moulder buy more or less items, and see what happens. If nothing else, I can alwaysredo the chapter and try to realign the RNG with my previous movie.
Posted: 6/29/2006 1:57 PM
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Nitrodon
Active player (283)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
I made it not desynch by simply making Eirika enter the item menu 4 times on her first turn that chapter. The formation you encountered the first time is the less common of those two, which may be why you didn't think that RNG affected it. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1308/FE8Speed.vbm
Posted: 6/29/2006 5:51 PM
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cheetah_7071
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
Thank you! I must have accidentally skipped from entering the menu three times to five when trying it out. And the real reason I didn't think it was affected by this RNG is that the RNG didn't advance when Ephraim appeared. It must use old values or something.
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