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Active player (284)
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The end of that looked a bit ugly, but I suppose that's because any one of those gargoyles could have easily killed Vanessa in one hit at that point, and/or the boss was too hard. I have some solutions for that. Vanessa with an axereaver can kill the boss in one critical and one normal hit. If you do exactly the same until this boss kill on turn 6, then the enemy phase will merely consist of dodging all 4 gargoyles with three hit rates at 52% and the other at either 62% or 47% depending on how the AI deals with one-hit kills (and depending on Vanessa's position, which may depend on whether the bonewalker moves). All counters will be fatal without manipulation, except that one of them (which may not even be possible to counter) will need an extra point of speed to double with the axereaver. The gargoyles are actually triggered by stepping into a certain area. (The most succinct and unambiguous way to put it is "use any command in the trigger area, including 'Wait'"; being dropped/warped/rescued doesn't count.) I've mapped out the trigger area, but it doesn't seem to be avoidable without losing time.
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Joined: 5/29/2006
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Vanessa levelled up five times. EDIT: Disregard this, I'm sure I can do better. I'll see what I can do tonight.
Former player
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Active player (284)
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You should be more careful. Frames 127846-127870 (while Tana is manipulating the RNG) have no input, wasting 25 frames for no reason. Other than that, it looks good.
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
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Nitrodon wrote:
You should be more careful. Frames 127846-127870 (while Tana is manipulating the RNG) have no input, wasting 25 frames for no reason. Other than that, it looks good.
...wonder how that happened. I must have accidentally pressed down frame advance without paying attention. Guess this is what I get for not watching it before posting it. I'll post the next version after finishing the next chapter.
juef
He/Him
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Joined: 1/29/2007
Posts: 207
Location: Québec, Canada
I'm not posting much in this thread, but I'd just like to say that this run interests me a lot, so, thanks! :)
Former player
Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
juef wrote:
I'm not posting much in this thread, but I'd just like to say that this run interests me a lot, so, thanks! :)
More viewers are always appreciated. Here's through chapter 13. Not much to see there, but it amuses me that Vanessa is now capable of OHKOing armors with javelin criticals.
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Posts: 341
Why did you do all that switching in the formation screen? The one-turn victory works just as well if you only switch Vanessa and Saleh. Also, this is mainly a curiosity, but I happened to notice that you can win in one turn with very little manipulation. Saleh gains HP+def+res that way, so the manipulation you did might make it faster.
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Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
Nitrodon wrote:
Why did you do all that switching in the formation screen? The one-turn victory works just as well if you only switch Vanessa and Saleh. Also, this is mainly a curiosity, but I happened to notice that you can win in one turn with very little manipulation. Saleh gains HP+def+res that way, so the manipulation you did might make it faster.
Switching fixed. I'm not sure I see how it can be done with little manipulation. Vanessa can critical with none, sure, but then Saleh has to waste ~80 RNs himself. I decided that Vanessa wasting 100 followed by Saleh wasting 20 was probably faster, due to a pegasus being the fgastest RN-waster. If the levelups worked out faster, well, I guess that just confirms it asd faster for sure.
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When I tried the one-turn victory for fun, I made Seth kill the first knight with his silver lance, which didn't need a critical hit. That would explain why I didn't need much manipulation.
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Posts: 200
Nitrodon wrote:
When I tried the one-turn victory for fun, I made Seth kill the first knight with his silver lance, which didn't need a critical hit. That would explain why I didn't need much manipulation.
Ok, that makes sense. Well, given the different levelup, this is probably the faster strategy. I'll go ahead and keep the atrategy I've used.
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Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200
Here's through chapter 14...sort of. I'm less confident about this chapter than most. Notable issues that may need fixing/complete rethinking: --Whether going along the right path is really faster (I'm fairly certain about this one, though, and it nets me a very nice spear) --What to do about Vanessa/the cavalier reinforcements. I considered just letting them attack her without charging at them, but I decided against it. Another possibility is to take longer getting into the first door, but not bringing Vanessa/Colm/Tethys along. Though then, each cavaliuer would move every turn, which I'm fairly certain is slower. --Whether there's a way to deal with the cavaliers that doesn't require Vanessa to manipulate a critical and her own levelup/survival at the same time. --Whether there's a faster way for Seth to waste RNs on the final turn. So, yeah, I really had no idea what I was doing there and just sort of went with educated guesses. Well, I guess I'll find out if Nitrodon's still smarter than me sometime soon.
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Posts: 341
I should be able to write a more coherent post in the morning, but for now I'll just type a few things. The only entrance to the throne area is the door in the top right corner, so the only reasonable path is the one on the right. I suspect the fastest way to deal with the cavalier reinforcements may be to put an unarmed unit in the way. Kyle and Dozla have the highest defense (11) out of all of your units except Seth, and either of them would easily survive in that position. The cavalier with a javelin is the third one to move, so he should be blocked by his own allies and unable to attack you. EDIT: I knew I should have gotten some sleep before posting. Of course, this is a TAS, so anyone can dodge one attack per turn easily. The other easy possibility I thought of later is to have 3 units there to kill them, but it's probably faster to just block them instead. There's no general way for Seth to waste RNs faster from that position. There may be a sequence of cursor movements that will waste that particular set of RNs more quickly, but I'm too tired to try to find one. Molotov's run beats this chapter in 8 turns, compared to 9 in your run. I haven't checked to see what he did differently, but I have noticed that it's possible to win in 8 turns if Seth is one space ahead of your run after opening the door.
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Posts: 200
Nitrodon wrote:
I should be able to write a more coherent post in the morning, but for now I'll just type a few things. The only entrance to the throne area is the door in the top right corner, so the only reasonable path is the one on the right. I suspect the fastest way to deal with the cavalier reinforcements may be to put an unarmed unit in the way. Kyle and Dozla have the highest defense (11) out of all of your units except Seth, and either of them would easily survive in that position. The cavalier with a javelin is the third one to move, so he should be blocked by his own allies and unable to attack you. EDIT: I knew I should have gotten some sleep before posting. Of course, this is a TAS, so anyone can dodge one attack per turn easily. The other easy possibility I thought of later is to have 3 units there to kill them, but it's probably faster to just block them instead. There's no general way for Seth to waste RNs faster from that position. There may be a sequence of cursor movements that will waste that particular set of RNs more quickly, but I'm too tired to try to find one. Molotov's run beats this chapter in 8 turns, compared to 9 in your run. I haven't checked to see what he did differently, but I have noticed that it's possible to win in 8 turns if Seth is one space ahead of your run after opening the door.
It looks like he got the fewer turn by dancing for Seth on turn 1. I'll see how I can mimic the result without dancing, or if I can find a way to dance for Seth in my current plan.
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Hm...it seems that attempting to speed up by a turn results in me missing the spear unless I recruit Rennac, which has other issues speedwise (enemies start targetting him, I need L'arachel/Eirika to talk to him, etc). I'm ultimately not convinced that reducing the turn count is actually faster here. Any thoughts? Of course, I'd still want to redo the chapter for just tanking the cavaliers.
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So, the reason I've been procrastinating on this is that I'm really unsure how to proceed. The overall strategy I had before (minus the stuff with Vanessa) was fairly quick, and netter me a spear, but was at least a turn slower than optimal. Going with the faster route doesn't get me a spear, which could be useful later, and was certainly critical in how I did this chapter--but could be replaced by hex-editting more javelin purchases (and then trying to work around any potential desynchs). If I don't buy any more javelins, and grab the spear, I might be able to make it through the game--Ephraim's carrying the one from 5x, and I think Syrene comes with one. But then again, chapters 16 and 18 are going to be fairly long chapters with probably heavy javelin usage. There's also the fact that the "obtained a spear" dialogue is probably slower than just buying some more javelins and trading for them. But the spear is also more powerful, and it might be worth it to grab it even if I do buy more... Basically, I'm just thinking aloud here, and have really no idea what I should do. Anybody out there in the peanut gallery have ideas before I go with what is at best going to be an educated guess. Ultimately, even if I pick wrong, it's only a second or two lost in a 30-45 minute or so movie.
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Chapters 16 and 18? Personally, I'd be more worried about having enough javelin uses for chapter 15. With the amount of javelins/spears you currently have, you'll probably have to rely on Saleh a lot in that chapter (which is probably a good idea anyway, since he and Vanessa are the only good units you have who aren't slowed down).
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Ok, so I guess I'll go back and buy some more javelins. Whether or not dancing for Seth is faster even then I don't know (I seem to recall deciding that Molotov was able to pull it off only because he used a lot of units, but I'll take another look), but I shouldn't need the spear, as I can grab the silver sword currently on Forde. Trying to guess the number of javelins (as I really don't want to have to do this twice, not least because I lose potentially dozens of frames every time I hex edit due to different timing on the cursor cancelling when an enemy targets me which is a pain to find and fix)...Right now I have 22 uses total, with Ephraim bringing 17 more, and Syrene bringing another 20. I'm actually guessing only 2 more, but I might need three... I really don't want to do this (especially with the going through and trying to cancel all the enemy attacks earlier) without being sure I have the number of javelins right. So I'm currently leaning towards buying three (wasting, what, half a second if I'm wrong? A large amount of time in a platformer, not so much in an RPG), but if Nitrodon (or somebody else) has some compelling evidence that two will be enough (not that I'm asking anybody to go through the enemy stats and calculate it out exactly, as that'd take as long as just running through the game), then I'll go with two.
Joined: 5/30/2006
Posts: 39
cheetah 7071 wrote:
...cursor cancelling when an enemy targets me...
...especially with the going through and trying to cancel all the enemy attacks earlier...
I just thought I'd mention that holding A (as I think you should've been doing all along, but only noticed during Chapter 10) cancels the stuff with ease. Perhaps there is some frame thing I don't know about, but that's what I've always done and it works just fine. I imagine it would make things a lot easier to fix. As for your Javelin issue, I have no idea. I'm not good at the specifics like this, but I just know I bought 10 and managed (1 extra?). Obviously doesn't help you much, but oh well.
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Molotov wrote:
I just thought I'd mention that holding A (as I think you should've been doing all along, but only noticed during Chapter 10) cancels the stuff with ease. Perhaps there is some frame thing I don't know about, but that's what I've always done and it works just fine. I imagine it would make things a lot easier to fix.
... Wow. That's amazing. I wish i had known that before... With that, I can fix the entire thing in one go (by just holding A 2-3 frames longer in either direction of where I currently just press it for one frame), and still not have to worry if I have to hex-edit a second time. It's less clean (I tend to prefer to press buttons the absolute minumum amount), but it fixes my problem, so I'll go with it. With that being known, the only potential problems with hexing in more shopping would be with formation issues like I experienced before, but those can (probably?) be fixed by waiting a few frames in the shop dialogue. So, thank you, you've saved me a lot of trouble. EDIT: I might still lose a as much as a dozen frames by various other timing issues happening during the player phase (like how long exactly it takes for the screen to scroll, and when exactly the turn begins), but this'll work for most of it. I can also add some consistency (and make things easier on me) by holding A throughout the entire enemy phase, instead of just for the 2-3 frames surrounding the attack itself.
Active player (284)
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I checked Molotov's run to see how many javelin uses might be required. Chapter 15: The TAS strategy will differ greatly from the console strategy, so I can't say anything useful. Chapter 16: No ranged counters are necessary throughout the entire chapter. Gerik attacked a couple times with a bow during the player phase though. Chapter 17: Myrrh was the only one to get into a battle. Enough said. Chapter 18: I suspect that the number of javelins will be more relevant than the number of javelin uses here. They'll mainly be used to reach gorgon eggs more quickly, instead of the usual counter massacres. Chapter 19: Molotov's run uses a javelin on turn 1, then doesn't bother to unequip it, but there aren't any ranged attackers to counter. If someone other than Myrrh has the swiftsoles, that unit can follow exactly the same strategy without a javelin. Chapters 20, 21-1, 21-2: No javelins necessary. In conclusion, I expect that after you pass chapter 15, you'll have enough javelins for the rest of the game. I would therefore suggest that you find a strategy for 15, and then determine how many javelins you need for it. A general route for 18 might also be useful.
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Nitrodon wrote:
I checked Molotov's run to see how many javelin uses might be required. Chapter 15: The TAS strategy will differ greatly from the console strategy, so I can't say anything useful. Chapter 16: No ranged counters are necessary throughout the entire chapter. Gerik attacked a couple times with a bow during the player phase though. Chapter 17: Myrrh was the only one to get into a battle. Enough said. Chapter 18: I suspect that the number of javelins will be more relevant than the number of javelin uses here. They'll mainly be used to reach gorgon eggs more quickly, instead of the usual counter massacres. Chapter 19: Molotov's run uses a javelin on turn 1, then doesn't bother to unequip it, but there aren't any ranged attackers to counter. If someone other than Myrrh has the swiftsoles, that unit can follow exactly the same strategy without a javelin. Chapters 20, 21-1, 21-2: No javelins necessary. In conclusion, I expect that after you pass chapter 15, you'll have enough javelins for the rest of the game. I would therefore suggest that you find a strategy for 15, and then determine how many javelins you need for it. A general route for 18 might also be useful.
Well, this makes things a lot easier on me. If it turns out 39 uses spread across 4 javelins is enough for chapter 15, then I'll probably end up fine for 18 as well, then, especially considering I do have hand axes. I'll take a peek at chapter 15, then, and see how whether I think it'll be enough. EDIT: Looking at chapter 15, I'll need very little in the way of javelins. Seth can take Caellach, needing two spear/javelin uses for the two mages, plus two more for unlurable fighters. Saleh will plow straight south, slaughtering everything, and picking up the swiftsoles along his way. They'll probably go to Vanessa, but I haven't decided yet. Vanessa with clear out the northeast, then each turn two pegasus reinforcements appear. She kills the one with the javelin during the player phase, and the one without on the enemy phase. When Ephraim arrives, Duessel might or might not be needed to help out Saleh. If so, he may use Ephraim's Javelin a few times. Saleh will need a few fire tomes from Lute/Ewan, so this may be the oinly time so far where it's faster to use the "list" command rather than the "trade" command. We'll see. As for chapter 18...well, as it stands, I'll have 3-4 javelins left over, and possibly a spear. Together with magic on Saleh, a hatchet and at least one handaxe, I should be fine. Well, I feel better now. Time to decide whether getting the spear is faster in the long run than just killing those few enemies in chapter 14 with a javelin.
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The units you have blocking the door could be one space closer to the enemy. Because of scrolling, I'm not sure if this would save or lose time. You can win in 8 turns simply by moving Seth one space further on turn 3, then moving him as far as possible on the next 3 turns. Two enemies will be killed by counters rather than normal attacks (one on turn 3, and one on turn 5), but the middle area will probably be faster. If you want to break the silver lance under the same circumstances as the current WIP, you should equip it on turn 3 for this strategy. I should probably say something about Vanessa's options. If/when she promotes, she'll need 85 additional lance exp if she plans to use Vidofnir (and get that ever-important 5% critical hit bonus). This may or may not require giving her a steel lance. If she doesn't reach S lances, you'll lose about 12 seconds by letting Fomortiis counter, and you would also need more manipulation for that battle. If you don't promote her at all (the animation takes about 20 seconds in FE7), killing Lyon in the final chapter will require a double critical from Seth with 2 more strength than he has now, and you'll lose 22 seconds because you would need to attack Fomortiis twice. Also, chapter 17 could be annoying without a promoted Vanessa, but I suppose you could use Myrrh under those circumstances. P.S.: You don't really need to make your entire post a link.
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