Post subject: Hack approval: do we need an appropriate FAQ section for it?
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Basically, I'm writing this for two separate reasons. First, I want to try resolving the question of hack approval: if some of them get approved as exceptions, there must be some reasons for that. And they surely can be stated in a more or less defined official form at the appropriate FAQ section. Second, I want to bring some attention towards the recent Super Metroid hack runs event. As some of you may know, "Super Metroid: Redesign" hack (SMR for short) has been released recently, and there was some (rather passive, I'd say) discussion on whether it is good enough for approving it as a possible exception in addition to Metroid Legacy, another SM hack already approved here. Having two hacks of the same game approved here at once seems highly improbable in the current state of rules concerning hacked games, especially considering the fact that the exceptions are not justified in written form. Furthermore, they aren't justified in any form. Those hacks are just approved without any obvious (that is, for a person who is not familiar with the hack or the circumstances of its appearing here, let alone the original game) reasons. For me, and most other people, approving both of aforementioned hacks would be a win-win (or at least "win/not lose") situation. Leaving out SMR would mean the community will lose a very potentially entertaining and also very high quality run, as Saturn is already up to it once he finishes his RBO project. Swapping it with Legacy is not so good either, at least for ethical reasons, not to mention that the community will (yet again!) lose another very high quality run — catnap222's new and improved Legacy TAS may already be underway, and its creation will surely take much less time than creating a well-optimized TAS of SMR, which is about twice as long compared to the 100% Legacy run. Here, I want to discuss the possibility of such hack approval criteria that would let the community itself choose which hacks to be considered worthy, which will be advantageous for the next reasons: • less overall bias towards/against the specific game; • for each hack out there, there already are some experienced players whose opinions the rest may rely on; • sometimes it's easier to communicate with the general mass of the community than with its specific members, especially the administration (also less strain for them); • some more freedom of choice, after all. The system will be very similar to the submission judging one: first someone will inform the community of the hack (if it wasn't discussed on the forums ever before), then, if some of the TASers declares their will to TAS the hack, and the hack itself is considered worthy by the aforementioned criteria, and there seem to be any interest towards it, the permission is granted. So, here is the example of a demo of a pre-test of a temporary alpha-version proposed judging criteria for all the future hacks to be approved here:
    I. The original game must be well-known. That would ensure that the general mass will spot the difference between the original and the hack. For TASers, that would also ensure that the speed tricks possible in the original may also be exploited in the hack TAS.
      A. The hack itself must be considerably well-known. That is, it must get known (and possibly appreciated) both here and within a community dedicated to the original game (that is, the fans). B. The hack must be interesting enough for a TAS. The TAS of the hack must show something not seen before in the TAS of the original game (for example, doing some good looking move that is infeasible in the TAS of the original game timewise, but made mandatory in the hack), must not have any overtly dull ingame moments or cutscenes lasting for a long time and preferrably no parts the speed of which can't be controlled by the input (ie. autoscrolling; scripted scenes). Given the highly subjective factor of this criterion, it's always better to make a test run showing the walkthrough for others to decide.
    II. The hack must be mature. There mustn't be any [serious] troubles applying, playing or running the hack.
      A. The hack must be stable. Only the final, thoroughly tested versions are approved to be TASed, possibly with the special approval from the hack creator/lead tester. Hacks with malicious bugs not present in the original game or features not working with our emulators are not allowed without any exceptions. B. The hack must be conceptual. It must revolve around some different scenario or a totally new idea. The level design should also be new and fresh. Changes to the game engine (new/changed player character abilities, physical model adjustments, object interaction model adjustments) are highly desirable, as long as they are consistent and don't introduce bugs. To sum it up, the more different the hack is without losing its quality, the better. C. The hack must be complete. The hack must be consistent from the beginning to the end, without any out-of-place scenarios and design features. All the new/changed abilities and adjustments must be put on a good use and be noticeable throughout the conventional play.
    III. The chosen hack must be the best one for a given game. To avoid squandering talents on trifles, only the best hacks should be approved. If there are no hacks for the given game that are worthy enough to be approved on TASvideos (judging by the aforementioned criteria), then neither of them can be chosen.
      A. A special exception can be granted if a hack deemed best at the moment of approving becomes superceded later by a new one, outperforming the previous by a significant margin. This is an extremely rare (especially for the games about 15 to 20 years old), yet possible case, in which the new hack should get thoroughly tested and judged by the same criteria against both the approved hack and the original game*. If it shows itself competitive, yet different in its concept and realization, an exception should be granted. *) — That also implies that a TAS of the new hack should look different enough from both the original game and the previous hack, as mentioned in I-B. B. The same applies to any future hack of that given game. That way, each new hack should withstand a competition against both the original game and the other approved hacks of it, making such a competition dramatically harder, up to the point of being impossible, each time. It's worth mentioning that the game itself should be versatile enough to allow for creating more than 1-2 outstanding hacks, which is an extremely rare quality.
    IV. There must already be someone willing to TAS the chosen hack. There is no sense in permitting the hack to be TASed and submitted here on TASvideos.org without someone to actually do the run.
It's also worth mentioning that this set of rules will not change the current number of approved hacks dramatically even a little bit (sadly, good hacks are damn rare), but will allow more freedom and distinctness in discussing, judging and TASing them, especially when it comes to new ones that could emerge in the future. That way, we would also get rid of that "voting no/meh cause it's a hack, I like the original game more" attitude more easily. Right now, I'm not seeing any possible drawbacks with this suggestion, and if there are some, they should be discussed. (Note that discussing SMR itself and its worthiness should preferrably take place already after we settle this issue alone.)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3574)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Some sort of published criteria for accepting hacks would be nice. As far as the metroid hacks are concerned, I think there should only be 1 allowed. It seems metroid redesign is the superior one so it should be accepted and legacy should not be allowed. I guess my opinion could chang if there were aspects of metroid that could be featured in legacy that could not be in redesign.
The TAS of the hack must show something not seen before in the TAS of the original game (for example, doing some good looking move that is infeasible in the TAS of the original game timewise, but made mandatory in the hack)
I feel this is the most important requirement for any hack.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
adelikat wrote:
I feel this is the most important requirement for any hack.
Here I agree with you absolutely. And SMR really wins here, with its massive amount of changes.
adelikat wrote:
It seems metroid redesign is the superior one so it should be accepted and legacy should not be allowed.
But Legacy is already approved… I just don't know if it would make much sense to strip it of the assigned approvement (well, at least until the SMR TAS would get completed, which may take up to year to do).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
adelikat wrote:
It seems metroid redesign is the superior one so it should be accepted and legacy should not be allowed.
Legacy already got a special permission in the Rules. I think accepting both hacks (Legacy and Redesign) would be the best solution, otherwise as moozooh said TASvideos will miss a entertaining TAS for one of them. Also there is already a permission for 2 hacks from the same game (Super Demo World, and SDW - The Legend Continues) although they are not that different (especially in physics) as the mentioned Super Metroid hacks. So what is the difference in this case compared to the Mario hacks?
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
Saturn, SDW and SDW - The Legend Continues are the same game. We only have one accepted SMW hack. Personally, I don't understand what you are suggesting, moozooh. Those criteria you described are already used by Bisqwit when he is determining whether a hack is good enough to be accepted or not. As you said, good hacks are extremely rare, so it's not like there are many hacks left out because they have to be manually accepted by Bisqwit. I guess my question is this: what's wrong with the system we have at present? If you want to introduce a hack to the community, make a thread. If you want to TAS a hack, ask Bisqwit either in the thread, in a PM, by e-mail or via IRC. Good hacks almost always stick out of the crowd and I don't think it's hard for Bisqwit to see what hacks should be accepted and what shouldn't. Borderline cases are rare. In my experience, if Bisqwit doesn't know the original game very well, he will ask for help from people on the site (as in the case of Metroid Legacy, where a lot of people recommended it to be accepted).
Joined: 10/24/2005
Posts: 1080
Location: San Jose
Kyrsimys wrote:
Saturn, SDW and SDW - The Legend Continues are the same game.
Actually, I think SDW was an earlier version of SDW:TLC. I think we often refer to SDW:TLC as SDW because we are lazy, and we don't care about the older game.
<agill> banana banana banana terracotta pie! <Shinryuu> ho-la terracotta barba-ra anal-o~
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
We have SNES Super Demo World - TLC (1.1) in 2:13:18 by Fabian (?) & JXQ (?) and SNES Super Demo World - TLC (1.1) in 19:33 by JXQ (?). If there is a difference, the respective movie entry should be modified to show it. I still can't see the difference though, and I think the movies even run using the same rom and patch. EDIT: Scratch that, I see what you mean now. What's so different in SDW and SDW:TLC though to warrant two different movies? I'm not sure I ever even tried SDW 1.0.
Joined: 3/26/2006
Posts: 42
Location: Germany
The original SDW had only a few levels demonstrating what can be done when hacking Mario World (e.g. ASM modifications -> new block types etc.) so I doubt a TAS of it would make much sense nor interesting to watch since we have already got the more elaborate and full hack SDW:TLC.
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Kyrsimys wrote:
Saturn, SDW and SDW - The Legend Continues are the same game. We only have one accepted SMW hack.
I have tried both hacks and Super Demo World v1.00 isn't the same as SDW-TLC. The first levels I tested were different and most noticeably the World Map isn't changed in SDW 1.00 at all.
Kyrsimys wrote:
I guess my question is this: what's wrong with the system we have at present? If you want to introduce a hack to the community, make a thread. If you want to TAS a hack, ask Bisqwit either in the thread, in a PM, by e-mail or via IRC. Good hacks almost always stick out of the crowd and I don't think it's hard for Bisqwit to see what hacks should be accepted and what shouldn't. Borderline cases are rare. In my experience, if Bisqwit doesn't know the original game very well, he will ask for help from people on the site (as in the case of Metroid Legacy, where a lot of people recommended it to be accepted).
We already have a thread in which I even offered a demo to show how variating and entertaining a TAS for Redesign could be. We discussed this problem in this topic without any progress and we also asked Bisqwit in IRC about this but since he don't know this game well there is only a way to contact someone who actually does (like BoltR for example). It's obvious that Metroid Redesign is the by far best hack for Super Metroid so far. It's just not well known yet in our community because of its recent release and because not many have played it yet and therefore don't know the quality of it.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Kyrsimys wrote:
Those criteria you described are already used by Bisqwit when he is determining whether a hack is good enough to be accepted or not. As you said, good hacks are extremely rare, so it's not like there are many hacks left out because they have to be manually accepted by Bisqwit. I guess my question is this: what's wrong with the system we have at present?
Basically, that's what is wrong: there's no system. Relying on single person's opinion is not a system in the least. To the new people who come here (and to many of the "old" ones), it's not obvious, why there is a movie of say, NES Air on a site which doesn't generally allow hacks nor where it has got a special permission. Can you explain it? I can't. So, to TAS SMR we need to: 1) bother Bisqwit to get acquainted with it, which is already hard to do; 2) somehow get him to like it good enough to approve it in addition to Legacy, which is even more hard to do, concerning his private disposition towards SM and SMR, and every little aspect that could affect his decision. I certainly don't think this is the best option we have.
Kyrsimys wrote:
If you want to introduce a hack to the community, make a thread. If you want to TAS a hack, ask Bisqwit either in the thread, in a PM, by e-mail or via IRC. Good hacks almost always stick out of the crowd and I don't think it's hard for Bisqwit to see what hacks should be accepted and what shouldn't.
See Saturn's post for details. It's not like none of us were doing anything, but it's just too difficult to simply start TASing without certainty that your hard work wouldn't get rejected only because of some obscure and totally unstated rule. That's why I just want these rules stated to have that certainty, that distinctness. You may discuss, object or comply to the rules. But you can't do the same to the personal opinion.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
adelikat wrote:
As far as the metroid hacks are concerned, I think there should only be 1 allowed.
Why only one? And why only one "as far as the metroid hacks are concerned" - maybe two for Zelda and three for SMW? I'd treat each hack as its own game, as long as the gameplay is changed, ie. new physics or new levels etc. Unpopular (ie. unknown) hacks are not different than unpopular games. The levels of interest are comparable. EDIT: See romhacking.net for an extreme example: Dragoon X Omega II is a hack of Final Fantasy AND a completely new game. </$0.02>
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
It seems people have been looking for me to post a response to this thread. I haven't been avoiding this thread, i've just been away on vacation over the summer. To begin; I don't see what people have against having multiple hacks of the same game. Let's hypothetically jump back to 1986 and pretend that we were making TAS back then. In a few months SMB2j is coming out, and because the previous game provided such fierce competition, people are anxious to get their hands on the game to make a TAS. The two game engines are nearly identical, and it gives the SMB fans a chance to look at series of new levels, with a few new tricks, and start up a fresh competition. Would SMB2j be accepted on this site? You bet it would. Fast forward to present day. Super Metroid has been out for a while, and a new hack called Super Metroid Legacy comes out. It's got basicly the same engine as the original, but with a new map and a few new tricks. It's accepted on the site and people start making runs of the game (I can't wait to see the next version of the run catnap). A few months later a brand new never seen before hack is released, by the name of Super Metroid Redesign. This new hack follows the same basic lines as the original game, however it's got new sprites, new items, new maps, and new phsyics. There has been substantial asm changes to the game (I could draw parallels here to SMB3, but I think you get my point). Why would we NOT accept it? If no one had a published run of SMB2j, would we disallow runs of it because SMB3 came out? Of course not. That being said, I do not suggest that we accept ALL hacks for ALL games simply because there is new content to be seen. Both Legacy and Redesign are of a high enough quality and are different enough from the original that if they had been release in 1995 you could have probably sold them in a store (and if the difficulty of the two hacks wouldn't hurt the sales would probably sell quite well). Most hacks this is certainly not the case. If a hack is good/different enough to considered a new game which someone might buy, why not treat it as such? After all most games don't have hacks worth 'buying', and if they do, they mostly likely don't have more than one.
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Just for the record, I imply a positive nod towards Moozooh's ideas. Moozooh has studied the situation carefully and his analysis is correct. "Criteria III" is however something that I fear is observer-dependent. Which is not to say it can't be used, but it means that it may be impossible to get an unanimous opinion in every case.