I was thinking about where the line gets drawn, exactly. Where does human end and machine begin? Well, I came up with an idea that I think is nifty.
I remember hearing Mario runners say they studied the TAS to find out exactly where to jump. Still, for them, knowing when to jump in the game is a matter of their memorization and reflex.
Well, no longer. My idea is to create a DDR-styled inputs display. Just press the button when the shape lines up, just like in DDR. Here is a 2-minute MS-Paint to give you an idea.
The shapes going up the screen give you the expectation to press them. Often times holding down a button is necessary, such as in Mario1, where right and B are constantly held down.
There are people who are very very good at DDR, and can get perfects nearly always. If you begin an NES and the DDR-output of the TAS button presses, a DDR pro could set a new human SR record. Does this count as tool-assisted?
Well, you couldn't really prove that they did DDR-like input. I don't really know anything about DDR, but do you need to be accurate within 1/60 of a second in that game?
@jimsfriend: accuracy gives more points in DDR, perfect accuracy isn't needed to hit the arrow though.
@topic:
the DDR-style input has a high probability of 'desyncing' - if you are off even a little when replicating the input sequence, the suggested input will become useless later. A fixed input sequence cannot react to different game situation.
I guess a skilled game player will be more succesful than a skilled DDR player in the end. It's a cute idea though :)
It depends on the game, of course. Mario jumping a frame too soon or a frame too late does not make a difference. Well, unless the TAS maker made it so Mario jumped at the last possible moment. A TAS could be made that allows more flexible inputs.
This idea would work well with enemies that are fixed, rather than enemies whose placement and behavior is determined by your actions.
I don't think it's unreasonable to presume a human can maintain 1/60th of a second precision for the duration of a short TAS, but with DDR there are a combination of aural and visual cues, and music / dance / etc. have a very rigid structure and pattern. A TAS would be completely without structure, rhythm, pattern, predictability, etc. This is a cool idea, for sure, but I personally don't see how it would give someone an edge over those using traditional speedrunning techniques.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
Awesome idea!!! but hear me out:
I think this would be cool if there was a TAS video playing in the back, and the player would just try to copy the TAS movement in the controller. The game would then tell him the score he got. This isn't interaction with the game itself, let's say, super mario bros. The player in this case is just dancing to the TAS, much like what DDR is about. You don't actually compose the song, but you dance to it. So, you choose a movie, the game starts and you try to do the input, but you don't change what happens in the screen.
The input you have to copy is exactly that which happened in the movie.
This would be awesome if you could have multiple TASes to choose, and classified in difficulty levels. I think this would be a great game.
Awesome idea!!! but hear me out:
I think this would be cool if there was a TAS video playing in the back, and the player would just try to copy the TAS movement in the controller. The game would then tell him the score he got. This isn't interaction with the game itself, let's say, super mario bros. The player in this case is just dancing to the TAS, much like what DDR is about. You don't actually compose the song, but you dance to it. So, you choose a movie, the game starts and you try to do the input, but you don't change what happens in the screen.
The input you have to copy is exactly that which happened in the movie.
This would be awesome if you could have multiple TASes to choose, and classified in difficulty levels. I think this would be a great game.
In a sense, you're creating a Mario theme for DDR. ;-)
It's a good idea, I like it.
If you begin an NES and the DDR-output of the TAS button presses, a DDR pro could set a new human SR record.
I disagree with this. I am doing a Mario non-tool run right now, and I can tell you that you'd be much better off relying on your reflexes and memorization of the game than trying to press a button at the exact right time when it fits inside a little square like in DDR.
I really like FODAs idea though. It'd be cool if in addition to giving you a score/rating on how closely you followed the TAS you could watch a video of yourself playing to see how well you did. You might fall into a hole or something at the beginning and then the video would be pointless, but oh well, better luck next time.
EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, a new human record could be set if they followed the TAS button presses, but only on a game that doesnt have a situation with a one frame window for success, or something like that. I doubt it would be possible in Super Mario World, I dont know about other games. Getting a record this way would be really cheap though and I wouldnt give it any credibility.
If you begin an NES and the DDR-output of the TAS button presses, a DDR pro could set a new human SR record.
-Actually, now that I think about it, a new human record could be set if they followed the TAS button presses, but only on a game that doesnt have a situation with a one frame window for success, or something like that.
- Getting a record this way would be really cheap though and I wouldnt give it any credibility.
- Right. But a sup-par TAS could be made just for the aid of humans.
- Thus the title "blurring the lines..." How could you falsify whether someone used DDR-inputs or not?
If i knew how to jump through walls in sbm1, I wonder if I would be able to do it... most likely not considering you probably have to make like 1 frame turns and slow down perfect amounts.
you know since i've played so much, i go by the music of when to jump for the most part. you dont have to be 100% accurate in all your jumps.
how would pressing a button extremely fast be displayed.
wouldn't the arrows block the screen?
someone explain to me how to jump through walls exactly in smb1.
weird thing about this topic is that i hjad thought about this idea.... like if i knew exactly when to jump and what to do all the time. my best idea to improve my record was to have a video playing smb1 as good as i wanted, and then have it play about half a second faster than my gameplay. this way i would know exactly how and when to jump.
EDIT: but do the people who play DDR well play welll with a controller? on a dance pad you would not be able to hold the right and B button and then press A. i dont think a person could obtain TAS level unless it is actually easier than i thought to jump through walls in smb1.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
Isn't jumping through walls banned by all record-keeping organizations?
You can check the FAQ (there is a link to help for specific games) on how to jump through walls.
yeah, it's weird some things are banned while others are not.
jumping through walls might be allowed, but walljumping and using a pipe that usually takes you somewhere else in the game is usually their problems with it.
i'm sure i could not jump through a wall, if i can i could make a video VERY close to the TAS record. :)
how does TAS time the smb1 run? from when you get control of mario, or when you press start.
EDIT: "Currently we don't know how exactly this is done. You just need to try thousands of times until it happens to go right…"
jumping through a solid wall then walking through it...
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
yeah, it makes the most sense i guess. so I a still confused about jumping right through walls. i probably would not attempt it if i were doing very well in a speedrun. i've come up with a good way to use the pipe in 4-2 tro get to the warp zone without jumping through a wall.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjavík, Ísland
Forget about making the player have actual control of Mario - it would be impossible to do without it desyncing almost immediately.
If this were done, the buttons LEFT and B would be inversed, ie in order to not press them in the game, you would press them on the dance-pad-thing. Othwewise you'd be holding them down all the time, making you unable to press any other buttons.
Also, if this is done, the movie used for this should not be the best-time movie we have on this site. Instead, a new movie should be created where Mario 'dances' to the ingame music by jumping, ducking, braking (holding the opposite direction for a bit) and shooting fireballs (making sure enemies dye in sync with the music too).
Something like this is very possible (but not exactly trivial) to implement on a game like Stepmania. It supports 6 buttons, though I think most people only play with 4.
Unfortunately, I have a feeling that the final result would be kind of dull and stupid and ultimately unfulfilling. MAYBE if you used some nice remixes instead of the in-game music of the game. Maybe.
- Looking at the game is unimportant. It's seeing the arrows that's important. That is, you don't jump because you see a pit, but because DDR thing told you to push B.
- It doesn't have to be the best TAS if the best TAS has 1 frame margins. Also, if whatever organization doesn't accept whatever glitch (like jumping through a wall), a TAS can be made according to that organization's rules.
- As for actually implementing it. I imagined the DDR thing would run on a seperate monitor, and someone would start the Mario game at the same time on a real NES and television. Then he just watches the monitor. I don't see
"- Looking at the game is unimportant. It's seeing the arrows that's important. That is, you don't jump because you see a pit, but because DDR thing told you to push B. "
you mean press "A"
anyways.... i'd be really mad if my record were broken by someone who just used a program to get the record. I still think the reflex of a person would not be good enough, I mean i know exactly where to jump and what to do, yet i still haven't created the perfect run. well, i guess i dont know EXACTLY what to do.... like the exact timing. with something like that you would, so i dont know.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
I'm quite sure this is an unfeasible method. (synching DDR with NES unit primarily, and playing it completely perfect all the way) But you go ahead and try if you think it's worth it.
I could definitely go for some TAS DDR if it was just a game for points. It shouldn't be impossible to code...
Joined: 2/15/2005
Posts: 246
Location: Torquay, England
This sounds cool.
But you would have to make it so that the emulator played the pre-recorded movie file and only used your key/button presses for the "scoring". It would desync if it used real-time key/button presses.
This would also make idle time much more fun. I always press buttons in idle time, sometimes to make the character dance to the music, sometimes just an easter egg for those who turn on the option to view key/button presses on the screen.
The shapes going up the screen give you the expectation to press them. Often times holding down a button is necessary, such as in Mario1, where right and B are constantly held down.
There are people who are very very good at DDR, and can get perfects nearly always. If you begin an NES and the DDR-output of the TAS button presses, a DDR pro could set a new human SR record. Does this count as tool-assisted?
I apologize.
