Topic by Thomaz

Posted: 1/30/2009 4:04 PM

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Thomaz

Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands

I think I remember having around the 45+ segments in my old route. My last game ended at Seafoam Islands, I was 2 hours into the run. And yes, I'm gonna SR for Zapdos to get certain Pokemon from Ditto + Trainer/Fly. Omanyte too, Aerodactyl too I think. And Magneton. :P You can watch my run upto segment 24 I think. It's on my Youtube account. Beware that the route will be changed a wee bit so I'll definitely do some things different (and faster) because of the new route.

Posted: 1/30/2009 6:01 PM

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tymime

Joined: 5/27/2006
Posts: 82

p4wn3r wrote:

I don't know much about missingnos, but a friend of mine reported that he caught one and it evolved to kangaskhan, could this save some time?

'M is the one that evolves into Kangaskhan, and I wouldn't recommend catching one of those.

SMILE DARN YA SMILE http://tymime.tumblr.com/ http://tymime.deviantart.com/

Posted: 1/30/2009 11:38 PM

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p4wn3r

Player (42)

Joined: 12/27/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Germany

@Thomaz 45 parts isn't bad at all. My biggest problem with segmented runs is because SDA apparently has something against zipping all videos into one file =P. While some things in this thread might not be useful for your run, others like how to level your pokemon up fast may give you a hand. Good luck! @tymime thx for telling me it's 'M that evolves to kangaskhan, I suggested catching it because it'll be necessary to fight a glitch pokemon to get lots of rare candies anyway, and catching and evolving it is probably faster than running from it and catching kangaskhan later. Why wouldn't you recommend this?

Posted: 2/1/2009 5:40 PM

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tymime

Joined: 5/27/2006
Posts: 82

p4wn3r wrote:

thx for telling me it's 'M that evolves to kangaskhan, I suggested catching it because it'll be necessary to fight a glitch pokemon to get lots of rare candies anyway, and catching and evolving it is probably faster than running from it and catching kangaskhan later. Why wouldn't you recommend this?

Well, I don't think 'M is as dangerous as most reports, but it would probably glitch parts of the game you don't want it to. But thinking about it now, maybe the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. :/

SMILE DARN YA SMILE http://tymime.tumblr.com/ http://tymime.deviantart.com/

Posted: 2/1/2009 7:31 PM

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wazkatango

Joined: 7/27/2007
Posts: 38

This has a lot of detailed info on 'M. http://trsrockin.com/dex_m.html Most likely it would mess up important parts of the game relating to the run

TAS: to beat a game faster than Sonic can blink.

Posted: 2/1/2009 8:35 PM

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Snake

Joined: 6/27/2007
Posts: 137
Location: Germany

Isn't a "Catch ALL pokemon" run is impossible? I mean... You can only get ONE starter... And one of the fossils. Or do you plan on getting these trough glitches? Whats with the pokemon that only appears in the specific versions like Growlith in Red or Magmar in Blue?

Posted: 2/1/2009 9:17 PM

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Thomaz

Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands

Just glitch them. :)

Posted: 2/1/2009 9:38 PM

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p4wn3r

Player (42)

Joined: 12/27/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Germany

wazkatango wrote:

This has a lot of detailed info on 'M. http://trsrockin.com/dex_m.html Most likely it would mess up important parts of the game relating to the run

The page you supplied has a lot of useful information. I don't think the parts 'M scrambles are important to the run, the 128+ on the sixth item is actually useful. To start off, it messes up the hall of fame PC, which can't be accessed until the game is finished, and looking at it is unnecessary anyway. Depositing it causes some harm, but you just give it one rare candy and it'll evolve to a Kangaskhan and you can deposit him. The sprites only get glitched if you put 'M in a battle, which isn't necessary, and you can fix this by looking at a normal pokemon in your team.

Snake wrote:

Isn't a "Catch ALL pokemon" run is impossible? I mean... You can only get ONE starter... And one of the fossils. Or do you plan on getting these trough glitches? Whats with the pokemon that only appears in the specific versions like Growlith in Red or Magmar in Blue?

In a "glitch-free" run, yes it is impossible, because you'll need to trade from other games and go to a Nintendo event to get Mew. However, due to a couple of glitches in the game (namely, Trainer-Fly and the Old Man), it's possible to get all of them. About the version exclusives, their data is on the game where it can't be caught. It just can't be accessed without abusing the glitches.

Posted: 2/2/2009 12:37 AM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

Over the last few days I've tried to update the route. It's still far from done, but it irons out a lot of what was wrong with my last and throws in some interesting new strats. It is purely based on the best times to catch different pokemon. I'm going to take into account items/money/ec for the next version. The last half of the route is labelled TEST because that's what it is, I was more interested in how I would glitch all the pokemon rather than doing so in a perfect manner. Also, my DV resources stopped working at the last minute so some encounters may not be possible. Any feedback is welcome. http://files.filefront.com/Route+v2txt/;13170270;/fileinfo.html Q1: I've again chosen to start with Squirtle, although in an ideal world I'd start with Charmander and manipulate a Squirtle but I've yet to find any way to do this faster. So the name thing hasn't changed since Primo's WIP: Name: CDDEV?z L131 Mewtwo DV:7; Spc:426; => Porygon DV:9; Spc:432; => Charmander L132 Alakazam DV:0; Spc:361; => Vaporeon DV:1; Spc:364; => Ekans DV:8; Spc:382; => Machamp L230 Oddish DV:2; Spc:359; => Flareon DV:7; Spc:382; => Machamp DV:C; Spc:409; => Bulbasaur Annoyingly, a L131 Mewtwo with DV:A would give a special of 434, 1 too many to manipulate a squirtle. Also, I have some doubts about these numbers, they use the formula [Stat = level * ((Base Stat + DV)/50) + 5]. This takes into account that each DV proportionally adds + 1 to the relevant stat for every DV point on a level up, but doesn't this value increase by 2 when a pokemon levels to L100? Does the fact that these pokemon are already many levels above 100 affect this in any way? i.e are these numbers proven/good? Q2: I did some half assed testing and it seems that skipping Pewter Gym takes a little longer than just TASing it (especially with Squirtle), I may be wrong though and I'll test it properly when I get there. Q3: I'm making gengar choice pokemon for the first part of the run. Firstly, it's a pokemon I have to glitch anyway, unlike Gyarados which I can quickly evolve from a L15 magikarp later and so will be quicker over all. Secondly, night shade will kill every pokemon in one hit up until I get mew (as will lick for that matter which will probably do 70-90 dmg). Q4: I haven't decided how and when I'm going to take the poison for walking through walls yet so the rest of the route from safari zone/koga is subject to change Q5: It may be faster to pick up one of the fighters in the dojo rather than elsewhere. Worth testing. Q6: For the glitched pokemon I'm going to use the linked trainer/fly technique, it should be much faster than normal trainer/fly. For testing sake I'm splitting it between these three trainers, but I wouldn't rule out it being faster to throw in a few more as soon as I find them. Q7: In-Game trades cause missingno. effects (thanks p4wn3r). I did some testing and found that it works only if the area they take place in is [D887 = 0] I will investigate more for non-essential trades if they are faster than using the old man. Q8. The glitching process at the end looks pretty chunky, but I hope to incorporate this part with the other main parts of the quest to make it look as seamless as possible. It may turn out slower, but not by much, and this run will have a few speed/entertainment tradeoffs anyway.

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 2/2/2009 1:04 AM

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Kuwaga

Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1248

From what I recall catching 'M and evolving it to Kangaskhan is perfectly safe, just keeping it, depositing it or moving with it to the hall of fame (why would sb do this anyway? - except for checking if it messes up the game, lol) causes problems.

Posted: 2/2/2009 7:51 AM

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Tilus

Former player

Joined: 9/24/2004
Posts: 177

More ideas: - Rare Candy-ing Mankey -> Primape, Machop -> Machoke, maybe Geodude -> Graveler: Have you considered flat out catching them in Victory Road? (Remember, you can enter from the Indigo Plateau side.) Shouldn't be very far out of the way, and you won't need WTW by that point anyways. - You sure Trainer/Flying both Omanyte and Kabuto is quicker than reviving the fossil of one of them? - That's a lot of Rare Candies to dump on Ivysaur and Charmeleon to obtain Venusaur and Charizard. Maybe Trainer/Fly one or both of them?

Posted: 2/2/2009 9:19 AM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

Tilus wrote:

More ideas: - Rare Candy-ing Mankey -> Primape, Machop -> Machoke, maybe Geodude -> Graveler: Have you considered flat out catching them in Victory Road? (Remember, you can enter from the Indigo Plateau side.) Shouldn't be very far out of the way, and you won't need WTW by that point anyways. - You sure Trainer/Flying both Omanyte and Kabuto is quicker than reviving the fossil of one of them? - That's a lot of Rare Candies to dump on Ivysaur and Charmeleon to obtain Venusaur and Charizard. Maybe Trainer/Fly one or both of them?

- I think you may be onto something with the geodude and machop. They'd both be about 7-8 candies so it'd definitely be worth some testing. As for Primape I'd be running it on the blue version so I couldn't encounter one at all, which is a shame as 21 candies will take a while. - I do pick up the dome fossil and revive it immeadiately after aerodactyl (sorry if I never made it clear in the route). It may still be subject to change as both could be glitched (kabuto=90, omanyte=98) and another revived, but I've still not decided on the best place to do this yet. - I know what you mean about venusaur and charizard and if I could I definitely would. Unfortunately Charizard=180, venusaur=154 so finding a pokemon to trigger it may prove very difficult, but I still think it's worth investigating

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 2/2/2009 10:42 AM

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Thomaz

Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands

At least you guys can. I have to catch a Zapdos to trigger the higher Poke's. I do use Aerodactyl for Machamp and Omanyte/star or various other Pokemon. Manipulating non TAS is annoying. Not neccesarily because of the luck involved, but rather that I need to check the Pokemon each time, to check for stats. :/ Btw, I timed the difference and while I don't know the frames, catching an evolution takes as much time as it takes to evolve the pre-evo with one Rare Candy, at least, seconds wise. So catching a level 21 Zubat + RC = Golbat. The time difference will be bigger in TAS I imagine, because of being able to get everything on the first step. However, if it's more levels, you are better off catching the evolution. Just worry about Box amount I guess. :P I better start working real hard on run. I don't want you guys beating me to the punch. :P

Posted: 2/2/2009 11:36 AM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

Hmm, I still need to get definite comparison times for RC v catching. If you are right then going back through victory road is a must for machoke, graveller, golbat etc. but that too will have to be weighted with box withdrawal and travel time etc. Also, I still think catching the Zapdos at L50 is a good idea, mainly because I will skip the pokeflute so a L50 Zapdos (DV:2) is the only way to trigger a snorlax (132) encounter. EDIT: Ok, I ran some quick tests. These times are very approximate i.e. they will differ slightly due to different pokemon names etc. and luck manipulation time, but other than that they give a reasonable idea. I think you are right Thomaz that we should catch rather than evolve. Rare Candies 5 : ~ 1100 (~18s) 10: ~ 2200 (~36s) 15: ~ 3300 (~54s) 20: ~ 4400 (~1min 12s) 25: ~ 5500 (~1min 30s) 30: ~ 6600 (~1min 48s) Evolution Animation: ~ 941 (~ 15s) Encounter/optimal capture: ~ 1500 (~ 25s)

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 2/2/2009 5:12 PM

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Thomaz

Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands

Pretty much no use in comparing both runs, I guess. I use Zapdos for a lot of different triggers, by leveling it. Same as with Omanyte/star. Stuff like Squirtle, Bulbasaur, Arti, Tres, Kabuto and others. Manipulating random Pokemon with random encounters would probably too hard, but it should be possible. For me at least. In TAS, everything is possible. >_>

Posted: 2/2/2009 6:15 PM

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p4wn3r

Player (42)

Joined: 12/27/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Germany

OK, it's gonna take quite a while for me to examine Mukki's route and find possible improvements. Anyway, here it goes: Q1 - I haven't tested to see if the formulas apply to pokemon above level 100, but I don't see any reason why they wouldn't work. Q4 - The best place is probably on Cycling Road, on a trainer you're fighting for Trainer/Fly purpose, or in Koga's gym. Why aren't you considering getting exp from E4 or high level pokemon? I mean, you'll have to fight them anyway, and, if faster, it'll be more entertaining than feeding a chunk of RCs down their throats.

Posted: 2/2/2009 11:16 PM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

I'd like to include levelling up the old fashioned way but I don't think it has as much applicability as you would think. It should definitely make it into the final route, the problem is deciding what pokemon to use this on. The best choices would be the pokemon that take more than 10RC to evolve. I've also calculated the amount of expience points they need to grow to evolution level (from the level they will be caught at): Drowzee (11RC) -> Hypno = 14201 EXP Meowth (12RC)-> Persian = 17856 EXP Rhyhorn (16RC)-> Rhydon = 70640 EXP Dratini (15RC) -> Dragonair = 29532 EXP Cubone (21RC) -> Marowak = 27012 EXP Gastly (21RC)-> Haunter = 17006 EXP Charmander (29RC) -> Charmeleon -> Charizard = 39771 EXP Bulbasaur(25RC) -> Ivysaur -> Venusaur = 26785 EXP Mankey (21RC) -> Primeape = 21609 EXP Elite Four EXP Lorelei 2035 EXP 2305 EXP 1897 EXP 1644 EXP 2628 EXP = 10509 EXP Bruno 1225 EXP 1650 EXP 1638 EXP 1296 EXP 2398 EXP = 8207 EXP Agatha 2280 EXP 2052 EXP 1485 EXP 1827 EXP 2442 EXP = 10086 EXP Lance 2659 EXP 1728 EXP 1728 EXP 2596 EXP 2895 EXP = 11606 EXP Rival 2247 EXP 2350 EXP 2665 EXP 2796 EXP 2875 EXP 2896 EXP = 15829 EXP Total = 56237 EXP Total/2 for piggybacking = 28118 EXP High Level Pokemon Mewtwo L131 = 4117 EXP / 2 = 2058 EXP Oddish L230 = 2563 EXP / 2 = 1281 EXP Alakazam L132 = 3507 EXP / 2 = 1753 EXP * 2 = 3507 EXP (NOTE: this would mean glitching Machamp from the Alakazam, not the Oddish) Total = 34964 EXP Across the high levels and elite four I would earn 34964 EXP for the piggyback pokemon (assuming Mew does all the battling). If I were to battle Mewtwo once more I could evolve both Gastly and Primeape which would save about a minute. I can't see it saving a huge amount of time elsewhere. I'm going to try and start on the v3 route tomorrow. The main differences will be a longer Seafoam Island section as I can catch a lot of pokemon there which I would otherwise have to RC. Also, I will catch Bulbasaur and exp underflow an ivysaur to get venusaur rather than RCing. Also, I will go back into victory road to catch a few things. On another note, my current route uses linked trainer/fly glitches. I remember Primo saying once that it wasn't possible, but then gia seemed to find out that it was. I read back through the thread today and it didn't state whether it was only possible under certain conditions (which I'm guessing is the catch). If this is true does anyone know what the conditions are? Or am I just imagining that linked trainer/fly is possible at all?

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 2/2/2009 11:51 PM

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gia

Player (109)

Joined: 5/3/2006
Posts: 223

you can glitch any number of areas, then recover your start button one last time and harvest all of them, as long as you dont battle a trainer and recover start then the glitched areas will remain glitched when you go back to them if you like you may also glitch 3, harvest two, glitch three more and then harvest the four left since you do more than one in a row you can "link" the battles so that one glicthed pokemon triggers the next, or you may battle a wild pokemon or trainer battle and use it for the next glitched area, whatever you prefer. for some reason i recall there was a "catch" when saving (i think the glitched areas get saved, or maybe they dont), but you won't save anyway

Posted: 2/3/2009 7:09 AM

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Thomaz

Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands

The glitched areas are saved as long as you used a battle to regain control.

Posted: 2/9/2009 4:55 PM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

I'm hitting a bit of a snag with the route since I feel as if I'm missing something with linked glitches. You say that I can harvest all areas after recovering start one last time, but without battling a trainer or saving. Is there another way to recover the start button other than battling a trainer or changing box -> reset?

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 2/9/2009 8:15 PM

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p4wn3r

Player (42)

Joined: 12/27/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Germany

Dying from poison also restores your buttons, but the area will remain glitched and you'll still need to battle a trainer to trigger the pokemon encounter. And if you walk next to a trainer and he notices you without walking to you, your game will freeze.

Posted: 2/10/2009 12:26 AM

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gia

Player (109)

Joined: 5/3/2006
Posts: 223

I dont understand correctly what you said so just in case, I did not say you dont have to battle a trainer (although I dont rule out you might do it without, bad memory), and thomaz clarified that you can save. What happens when you talk to the guy that takes you to brock? I dont remember.

Posted: 2/10/2009 1:55 AM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

Actually, I'd completely forgotten about that. If the guy takes you to Brock you no longer need to have a trainer battle (iirc this is shown in FractalFusion's Yellow run). If he is skipped when Pewter is first entered then he should remain there for the entire game (I haven't actually tested this, but hopefully he should) and could be used instead of trainer battles. I wonder what causes this effect (auto-walking?) but it may be interesting to see if it can be triggered by other in game events. In any case, apologies if you misunderstood me, you answered my question correctly the first time :-)

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 2/10/2009 3:42 AM

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Tilus

Former player

Joined: 9/24/2004
Posts: 177

One other possible timesaver you might want to potentially look into is, for some of the evolutions that begin at very low levels (like, less than 20 or so), you might want to consider supplanting some of the lower level Rare Candy uses with piggybacked trainer battles that you encounter along the way instead of using Rare Candies to pick up very small amounts of EXP to level up. Be sure to also spread out the E4 EXP as much as you can and divert it to the easiest to acquire levels as you can, the more levels you can get out of the E4 by piggybacking, the fewer Rare Candies you eventually have to use, and the quicker the run will be.

Posted: 2/10/2009 8:20 PM

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p4wn3r

Player (42)

Joined: 12/27/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Germany

The guy in Pewter City is only removed if you defeat Brock. If you don't do this, he'll remain there for the rest of the game. Using him means you'll have to fly to Pewter as you perform Trainer-Fly, since your menu will be disabled after that. The only other auto-walk events I recall are the Oak dialog at the beginning and the cutscene where you are taken to the Hall of Fame PC, but both of these can't be used. Besides, the event in Pewter seems to be unique, since you can bring up the menu after the text messages, while you can't do this in the others. EDIT: I remember you can skip the guy that stops you in cycling road when you don't have a bike with a similar technique, maybe that works for Trainer-Fly purposes?