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Experienced player (859)
Joined: 11/26/2007
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Finally got around to get the Disc Armor, the elevator was an excellent place to manipulate RNG. I'm currently 233 frames ahead of myself when entering the Lightning Doll room. Unfortunately I wasn't lucky this time around - the soul is nearly 40 random numbers away, which sucks ass. Gonna see if I can't do something about that without wasting too much time. Pie
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Wow, glad my suggestion proved useful. Looks a lot more fluid now! I expect over 15 seconds' worth of saving over Yrr's WIP by the time you finish Death. Can't wait. :)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Experienced player (859)
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moozooh wrote:
Wow, glad my suggestion proved useful. Looks a lot more fluid now! I expect over 15 seconds' worth of saving over Yrr's WIP by the time you finish Death. Can't wait. :)
Indeed, I never thought Disc Armor would save so much time O.o. The improvements are pretty apparent though, which is really cool. It's really close to 15 seconds, assuming perfect delays for Lightning Doll and no improvement on Death, I will be 885 frames ahead. But Yrr did a slight mistake in Death's 2nd phase which hopefully might save a couple of frames.
Yrr
Joined: 8/10/2006
Posts: 289
Location: Germany, Bayern
Very good work! Looks very smooth now. Have you tried this way of moving? 1. turn around 2. L + A 3. - 4. A 5. - 6. Down + A 7. Wait for land, then repeat Iirc, this method is slightly faster.
Experienced player (859)
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Posts: 400
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I found a 20 frame improvement on the Bone Pillar fight in the Study, so I decided to redo from there, given that the Lightning Doll got me nowhere. But I also noticed some errors in the Creaking Skull fight and was generally discontent with the level of luck manipulation in the earlier parts of the run, so I redid the entire run. I have saved 50 frames until the first Graham conversation, with a massive amount of tiny improvements. Here's the WIP: Pie The bigger improvements really stand out, so hopefully I don't have to point them out. The smaller improvements consist of better stairclimbing and massive amount of glitched backdashes (not really sure if this is the correct term... maybe a slightly higher speed was intentional during a weaponswing).
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Whoa, that was unexpected. The level of polish you're aiming for with this run is amazing, best of luck in redoing it! I guess I don't have anything left to suggest because this looks perfect.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Yrr
Joined: 8/10/2006
Posts: 289
Location: Germany, Bayern
Amazing o.O This time, there is nothing I can bitch about. Your luck-manipulation skills surpass mine by far. Incredible job!
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moozooh wrote:
I guess I don't have anything left to suggest because this looks perfect.
Thanks. The only thing I'm gonna do different this time is that I'm gonna try to get my hands on a Bone Pillar soul, which will be equipped when changing to Disc Armor.
Experienced player (859)
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I just got the Bone Pillar soul, no doubt worthy of a WIP. Sadly, I had to kill the Giant Ghost to find the right RNG. The delay is very small, I'm still 18 frames ahead of my old attempt, even after the soul-collect screen. Here's the WIP: Pie I gain frames like everywhere over my old run. Can't really pinpoint any major improvements. I managed to get another Skeleton Knight soul without delay, and 3 Hammers from Rock Armors without delay, which I thought was pretty cool. Still pretty excited about Catoblepas/Minotaur. The Catoblepas can be improved by quite a lot, 14 frames to be precise. Hopefully I'll get luckier this time around.
Yrr
Joined: 8/10/2006
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About Bone Pillar... wouldn't that allow to skip Catoblepas completely? Besides, amazing work!
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I also think it would make more sense to skip Catoblepas. It's very unlikely mana problems will sum up to over two seconds of killing it and switching to and fro' between the souls.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Experienced player (859)
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It does indeed make more sense, but sadly it won't be possible. The time gained will be lost later, because of not being able to use Disc Armor on a Werewolf. I'm very certain Bone Pillar won't make it out of the Study without reaching 0 mana. Well... you cannot use Bone Pillar under 2 mana, so I guess that is impossible, but that doesn't really change my point. Regardless, I'm going to use Bone Pillar against Great Armor though, the fight turns out nearly 53 frames faster, which has his soul drop nearly 200 frames earlier... no doubt very much worth the 5 frame delay it takes to change to Catoblepas. Also, I finally found a good tactic against Graham. I had the idea a while ago, but I never got around to test it. Not really sure how much faster the fight is, around 700-800 frames I guess. Hopefully I'll be able to oneround his first phase on normal, due to the difference in attack power (This is played from my 100%). Here is the fight: Pie Here is the current WIP: More Pie The Minotaur was a bit scrooge, it dropped my like 200 Battle Axes but never any soul. Luckily, I found a good solution. By throwing a spear at the Catoblepas it backs up and avoids turning around (it doesn't change RNG at all when it is turning around). This saved me nearly 40 frames on the Minotaur soul, which was really nice. The first Catoblepas has 0 delay, which is awesome. It was pretty easy though, given that I could delay the Arachnes without losing time.
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I like it when Kriole posts Pie. Keep the Pie coming.
<adelikat> I've been quoted with worse
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Pie is good. M-m-m, pie.
Kriole wrote:
It does indeed make more sense, but sadly it won't be possible. The time gained will be lost later, because of not being able to use Disc Armor on a Werewolf. I'm very certain Bone Pillar won't make it out of the Study without reaching 0 mana. Well... you cannot use Bone Pillar under 2 mana, so I guess that is impossible, but that doesn't really change my point.
You mean even if you manipulate more [big] hearts from the candlesticks? Is mana concern the only reason you won't be able to use Disc Armor on the Werewolf?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Experienced player (859)
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Who doesn't like pie :3
moozooh wrote:
You mean even if you manipulate more [big] hearts from the candlesticks? Is mana concern the only reason you won't be able to use Disc Armor on the Werewolf?
Well, Big Hearts from candles are fixed, nothing you can manipulate there, unfortunately. But, it is not impossible to have some of the monsters drop Big Hearts. Although even if I manage to make it to the warproom, the biggest issue is from the Castle Corridor to Floating Gardens - not a single reasonable mana refill. Mana is bound to run out, so switching between Catoblepas and Bone Pillar is kind of mandatory, if you want to save time in the Clocktower and Floating Gardens.
Yrr
Joined: 8/10/2006
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Location: Germany, Bayern
Can't watch the Graham fight for some reason =/ You could have gotten the big heart after getting catobelpas soul in the same room, like I did in my run. Did you think of that? I don't think it's wasting too much time.
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Yrr wrote:
Can't watch the Graham fight for some reason =/
It seems the problem is that I record all my things on VBA v22. I tried an older version, but I got several error messages.
Yrr wrote:
You could have gotten the big heart after getting catobelpas soul in the same room, like I did in my run. Did you think of that? I don't think it's wasting too much time.
Indeed that is an option. Although I won't need any mana at the moment, so it is a poor choice opposed to taking any of the more convenient refills on the way out of the Study.
Experienced player (859)
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I redid the Graham fight with Final Sword, this time on normal mode. Also, I did everything in frame advance, to create a perspective on how much time it would save. It looks it will be around 800 frames, give or take some frames for not being able to use Red Minotaur. There seems to be nothing you can do about having to slow down because of Graham's molten rocks getting in the way, but the delay is not that massive. Here is the new fight: Pie Played on VBA v22 Here it is on Youtube: Woo
Joined: 7/2/2007
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Holy crap. Graham got shown just how little he means to Soma's plans. Nice!
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Experienced player (859)
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It is possible to skip Disc Armor with Bone pillar (extremely small window of success), but it requires one to get Black Belt before the Kicker Skeleton. This gives you 1 major perk: you can use the last elevator to manipulate the Lightning Doll. This is indeed better than praying for good luck. Pie It is actually a little slower, but the breakable wall is _much_ faster, ultimately saving nearly 50 frames. The elevator rides are pretty boring to watch, that is because there is little you can do without messing up the RNG. I want to keep them all this way, so that I can change the RNG in case the Lightning Doll doesn't work out. I killed some extra enemies on the way out of the Study, so I can skip one of the Bomber Armors. Preferably the first one. Interesting note. The Zombie Officer drops a Combat Knife, and the Ghost Dancer drops a cup of tea. I also had the time to confirm one of my hunches - every enemy of the same kind in one room share the same loottables. It was easy to test really, I froze the two Lightning Dolls (petrified enemies never change RNG) in the Mystletain room and they always dropped a soul on the same random number.
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Why is the wall breaking faster without the Disc Armor? Anyway, nice find.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Experienced player (859)
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden
moozooh wrote:
Why is the wall breaking faster without the Disc Armor?
Mostly because you need to be so close with the Disc Armor to have all the 3 hits connect. And also because it only hits 3 times, you need to wait for the spellcast animation to fade before you can hit and that costs alot of time.
Experienced player (859)
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Finally... Pie I had to delay 1 frame on the Lightning Doll, any additional hits outside of the Lightning Doll room made the soul disappear. No clue what was going on. I'm still gonna toy around to see if I can't save that frame, shouldn't be too hard I believe... also, I'm pretty sure it's possible to improve the wall somehow. Gonna have to poke around there too. Regardless, I am 341 frames ahead of my first attempt. Sweet.
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I just finished Death. I gained 124 frames on the Death fight over Yrr, thanks to the Bone Pillar. The first phase was only 10 frames faster, since I wasn't able to use Lightning Doll twice. Regardless, Death was very kind to me, so manipulating him wasn't as hard as he usually is, luckily. Die I did not manage to gain any extra frames on the Lightning Doll. Also, I'm thinking of skipping Hippogryph. If anything, pick it up after Black Panther. It actually only saves time in Chaos, gonna run some tests there to get some perspective. Red Minotaur will also be skipped until after Graham, it is completely useless until Chaos. Also thinking of getting Nightmare; No doubt one of the best bullet souls there is. Cannot really decide just yet. Laevatain will be skipped aswell, I've been thinking about it and Muramasa should be slightly better still. I'm really look forward getting Muramasa/Lubicant in one go without Imp...
Experienced player (859)
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The first take on the Lubicants is done. I would never imagine it going this fast. Pie I believe there are many frames to be saved on soul travel and pulling the 2nd Lubicant earlier, and maybe avoiding jumping down on the lower level. The problem with pulling the 2nd Lubicant earlier is that the 1st one becomes much harder to kill in time before he flies out of reach. Avoiding jumping down to the lower level just has the 2nd Lubicant attack a little higher, shouldn't be too hard to compensate for that. The cog-trick after Death actually only saves 3 frames... Regardless, I'm about 13100 frames ahead of Atma.
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