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Posted: 6/25/2008 10:53 AM
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kirbymuncher
Player (36)
Joined: 10/8/2006
Posts: 284
Starting a level on a staircase should be faster by a couple frames, but I'm not sure, that's just what I think it would be. Why don't you run it?
Posted: 6/26/2008 1:34 AM
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N._Harmonik
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Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada
kirbymuncher wrote:
Starting a level on a staircase should be faster by a couple frames, but I'm not sure, that's just what I think it would be. Why don't you run it?
Oh, I forgot to mention; you can change how fast you're walking (still slower than running). I don't have the time, patience or know-how.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Posted: 5/13/2010 11:38 PM
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MarbleousDave
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Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1559
I would like to see two separate TASes of this game. The story (play from start / power on), make sure you end the movie right before the credits start (approximately). And after the story (play from reset / SRAM), use wonder mail mission to unlock Sky Blue Plains, enter it before you press continue. Randomness! Avoid traps by walking around them unless they fail. Warping can be manipulated. (Teleporting with Gardevoir and/or Alakazam FTW) Use the Warp orb to warp the enemies around the map. Monster Houses! If 4 or more items in a room are found (excluding shops) Luck Manipulate where Mew appears in the Buried Relic. Purity Forest is the hardest dungeon in the game EVER!!! Be sure you're holding a friend bow and you're at least level 30. Go for level 90.
Posted: 5/14/2010 1:11 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Someone TASed Pokemon Mystery Dungeon and put the run on YouTube. Someone else decided to beat Purity Forest with a Pidgey at level 1 the whole trip. Hopefully, pointing to part 1 of each TAS is enough to find the rest of the parts on your own.
Posted: 5/14/2010 11:03 AM
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Mastania
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Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
I'm really not sure about his team choice. I know that later on lowering Defense becomes important in order to be able to damage things at all, but Ground isn't a very good type choice against most of the bosses and Chikorita doesn't really offer anything at all as far as I can see. He could have picked another starter with Leer, or recruited something with Screech/Fake Tears. The slow-down for having a third recruit seems pretty negligible on Mt Freeze, and should be more than made up for by the extra damage output. Picking up a few Oran Berries would probably save more time than using Growl over and over again, and I don't even think I saw him get Power Bands for his team. Manipulating some TM's wouldn't have done any harm either, although Cubone can't get Rock Tomb because it got converted to the Rocky Orb item. I always though Squirtle would be a good choice; he gets Bubble at Lv7 for powerful ranged damage and Water Gun later on, as well as Tail Whip. An Ice Beam TM would also be really useful for Rayquaza, and Water hits a lot of the bosses better than Ground. I know Cubone gets STAB on Bone Club (and can also learn Ice Beam), but it still leaves his damage weaker overall. A Mawile could be recruited in Magma Cavern for Fake Tears, in addition to a more useful partner. Maybe Pikachu; Thunder Wave and Double Team I could see being really useful, in addition to Tail Whip and Quick Attack (to hit from second position/range). Wouldn't do much good against Groudon but then neither did Chikorita really.
Waddle Waggle Wattle
Posted: 6/27/2013 7:32 PM
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riking
They/Them
Joined: 2/27/2013
Posts: 23
Location: United States
Here's something interesting I noticed when watching the movie: The loading screens where it says stuff like "Tiny Woods | 2F" - the entire waiting time is lag frames until the fade-out. I get the feeling that it's generating & loading into memory the next floor, so that's probably where you want to look if you want to start manipulating predicting the dungeon layouts (because you want to be evaluating possibilities based on the layout of the whole dungeon, not just the first few floors). Also, based on other people's comments, I'm going to say that you should expect at least 2 RNGs - one for the dungeon level, and one for the AI movement. Honestly, I can't figure out how to do a "one-line CPU step" in the disassembler, so I can't really help with figuring out where the RNGs are or what input they take. Sorry~
Posted: 2/14/2014 5:58 PM
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Eszik
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Joined: 2/9/2014
Posts: 163
Ok, I don't know if it's a good idea to start TASes tasing a fully rng-based game but well, I really love this game so no matter the RNG. I started a kind of testrun but I'm actually thinking about the best Pokémon combination. I know that the most used in speedrun is Squirtle as leader and Charmander/Cyndaquil as teammate, Squirtle because of early STAB (Bubble), and Charmander/Cyndaquil because of Smokescreen. But theorically, Smokescreen would be useless if we manage to get all foe's moves missed, or at least get enough Reviver Seeds to survive to late boss fights (such as Groudon or Rayquazza). Anyway, Squirtle seems to be the best leader because of powerful STABs (Bubble, Water Gun) and ability to learn Ice Beam thanks to a TM found in Sky Tower. So, as we don't need Smokescreen, we can choose another teammate. I thought about Pikachu because Electrik-type is powerful against legendary birds. Finally, I don't know anything about luck manipulation and RAM search as I am really new in TAS milieu (does this word suit in this context ? my english is too bad xD). Someone more experienced might help me for this ?
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
Posted: 2/14/2014 10:11 PM
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ais523
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1029
I haven't tried to TAS this game, so I don't know for sure, but I've heard that this is a game where "the RNG hates you" (i.e. there is no way to luck manipulate during a dungeon). If that's the case, manipulating attacks to miss may be difficult or impossible, which could be why people tend to give up on the game. (Also, I should mention that boss-disabling seeds exist; many status effects will prevent bosses attacking, which makes them much easier to beat.)
Posted: 2/14/2014 10:41 PM
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Eszik
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Joined: 2/9/2014
Posts: 163
Even ennemies' moves are determinated before entering the dungeon ? I was thinking it was only floors map and ennemy spawns. But when there is a rest floor (with the Kangashkan statue), where is RNG determinated ? Good question. But yes, we could use Sleep Seeds or items like that to neutralize bosses. Sadly, we can't use Orbs during boss fights, which would have been really useful. By the way, I made a testrun of the quizz and understood quickly some things : - First question is determinated by your imputs before launching a New Game - Following questions are determinated by the number of frames you wait AFTER all question text was displayed AND by the number of frames you hold A button after chosing an answer (between 1-4 frames). I managed to get Squirtle without waiting any frames and with always chosing the first answer, except for one question. I will upload it on Youtube tomorrow.
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
Posted: 2/15/2014 10:20 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
LightBlueYoshi has produced a TAS test run of Red Rescue Team a while back. It probably wouldn't hurt to know about it. Ended at level 16, I believe. This is a very low level, and it can be seen that Rayquaza is taking one damage before all the Defense reduction takes place. You'll need ways to bypass the defensive stats or your damage output is frighteningly low, STAB or not.
Posted: 2/15/2014 11:10 AM
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jlun2
Skilled player (1741)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4981
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
GBA TASer of 2010
FatRatKnight wrote:
LightBlueYoshi has produced a TAS test run of Red Rescue Team a while back. It probably wouldn't hurt to know about it. Ended at level 16, I believe. This is a very low level, and it can be seen that Rayquaza is taking one damage before all the Defense reduction takes place. You'll need ways to bypass the defensive stats or your damage output is frighteningly low, STAB or not.
I remembered that the DS version had way less lag, so maybe that should be used?
LLCoolDave wrote:
This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.
Posted: 2/15/2014 1:54 PM
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Eszik
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Joined: 2/9/2014
Posts: 163
Honestly I don't know the differences between DS and GBA versions. I should try to make a testrun of the DS version. I think really useful moves would be constant-damage moves, such as Frustration and Sonicboom. Since Magnemite learns both Sonicboom and Metal Sound (which would allows Squirtle to deal much more damage with Water Gun/Bubble), I think it would be worth it to use it, especially for boss fights. About the Rayquazza fight : LightBlueYoshi didn't use Ice Beam, it will be really faster and easier using it. Finally, I uploaded the testrun of beginning quizz : http://youtu.be/Rt5u5FvFIK4 I managed to get good questions by holding A-button 1, 2, 3 or 4 frames. That was quite long but since I didn't know which hexadecimal adress was this corresponding, the only way for me was to test all combinations. VBM file is avaible in WIPs.
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
Posted: 2/15/2014 10:56 PM
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Spikestuff
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Flash TASer of 2022 PSX TASer of 2016
We should have both versions done. Blue has a higher chance to get a water starter. Red has a higher chance to get a fire starter. also there's this: Red: Feebas, Mantine, Plusle, Porygon and Roselia Blue: Aipom, Lapras, Magikarp, Minun and Porygon2 Excuse me if I'm wrong.
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Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Posted: 2/15/2014 11:41 PM
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Fortranm
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Joined: 10/19/2013
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The list of version-exclusive Pokémons is correct, but the difference between chances to get a water/fire starter doesn't sound right. A few version-exclusive Pokémons probably won't make much difference for any%, just like the case of FR/LG.
Posted: 2/17/2014 9:52 AM
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Mastania
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Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
Since my last post, I've refined my opinion on Cubone; because the TAS runs most of the game at such a low level, Squirtle's type bonus damage never gets high enough to make much difference. Dropping physical defence is the only option for most of the game, meaning Cubone with its doubleflinchhax opens up manipulation opportunities that nothing else really gets. I stand by everything else though, especially recruiting a Mawile (manipulating another Link Box for a Fake Tears + Bite combo wouldn't be a bad idea either).
Waddle Waggle Wattle
Posted: 2/24/2014 7:56 PM
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Eszik
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Joined: 2/9/2014
Posts: 163
After some reflection, I can only agree with Cubone choice, especially because of Double Slap. But I'm still really sceptical about Chikorita, I don't understant the reasons that led to this choice. All Grass-type moves are special in Gen III so we would find a teammate who can learn stronger physical moves (maybe Charmander with Iron Claw ?) I also tried to work on DS version, it seems to be quite faster, even in the beginning (no language choice and health/safety message). I'm not able to work on the TAS before monday but I'm still thinking about the theorical route :v
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
Posted: 2/27/2014 12:29 PM
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ais523
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1029
The damage formula in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon is different to the damage formula in regular Pokémon. I don't know what it is (finding out might be nice), but one effect is that both base power, and the special/physical split, have much smaller effects than in the main series games. (Also, the effect of defence stages appears to be to subtract from damage; after a few defence stages, everything is doing 1 damage, rather than varying amounts. The defence stat might, or might not, work similarly. I haven't tested special defence but would be very surprised if it were different.)
Posted: 2/27/2014 2:46 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
From my knowledge playing these games: - Attack, Level, and power of moves add to your damage rather than multiply. - Defense subtracts from this damage - STAB and type match-ups multiply Attack stages and Defense stages multiply the respective stats. There are different... "forms" of stages. Screech reduces Defense differently than Tail Whip from what I recall, and will actually work if the "form" that uses Tail Whip is already maxed out. ... How reliable this memory of mine is in question, but being Lv16 means you're practically guaranteed to do one damage against anything near the end, and any multipliers you use from type advantages for that one damage is still going to do no good. Your only real hope is to use ways to reduce or negate the defenses of late enemies so that your abysmal offense does more than one damage. I can confirm the formula is far different from the main series. In fact, if anything, most of the similarities between this and the main series are largely cosmetic. Effectively a Pokémon game in name only, as I see it.
Posted: 2/28/2014 1:27 PM
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Eszik
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Joined: 2/9/2014
Posts: 163
Stats lowering seemed to be really much more powerful in this game than in the main serie, so I think you're right : defence matters a lot in damage, much more than STABs. But I don't know how this is really calculted. Maybe the formula would be something like that : (base power + attack stat - defence stat)*match-up*1.5 (if STAB). In this case, STAB would matter only if stats are modified. Another possible formula would be : (base power*match-up*STAB) + attack stat - defence stat. In this case, STABs and super effective moves would be really useless during the TAS. In opinion, the first formula is the good one. But, since all elemental starters STABs are special and we can only lower physical defence, the only useful STABs would be physical STABs. Conclusion : whatever the formula, special STABs are totally useless if we are low leveled. So Squirtle was a really bad choice.
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
Posted: 3/1/2014 2:23 AM
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Mastania
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Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
The formula was on a site I used to visit, but it's not currently being hosted. Fortunately I have it written down and can recall a few other things from memory: A = Appropriate attacking stat (special or physical) + power bonus from attack used (ranges from about 0 to 15 for the strongest attacks IIRC) D = Matching defense stat L = Level Step 1: B = ((A - D) / 8) + (L * (2 / 3)) Step 2: Damage = ((B * 2) - D) + 10) + ((B * B) / 20) If this looks like a huge portion of damage comes from the user's level, then yes, that is correct. This is also why Def-buffing/-dropping is so much more efficient. Power/Special Bands still give a decent boost though, especially at the low numbers a TAS will be dealing with. Weakness/resistance then multiply damage like so: Weak to type: 1.5x Resistant to type : 0.9x (not very much) Highly resistant to type (immunity in the main games): 0.5x These do not stack for double types; my notes appear to indicate that the damage defaults to the most-resistant typing (although weakness still takes precedence over neutrality). The type bonus is the usual further 1.5x. Based on what I have recorded, stat stages can vary by up to +/- 5 (might be 6 but the difference is very small if so). It will take two double-Def-drops on the endgame bosses before the damage on them becomes worthwhile, based on the expected levels of a minimal-exp run such as the previous TAS (15-ish).
Waddle Waggle Wattle
Posted: 3/4/2014 12:29 PM
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ais523
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1029
What's the formula for the basic physical attack (i.e. not a move)? Is that the same, or different? Also, I agree that there's something weird going on with stat stages, but I'm not sure what.
Posted: 3/6/2014 12:12 PM
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Mastania
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Joined: 5/30/2009
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ais523 wrote:
What's the formula for the basic physical attack (i.e. not a move)? Is that the same, or different?
IIRC it's always 0.5x effectiveness, like a strong resistance.
Waddle Waggle Wattle
Posted: 3/6/2014 3:55 PM
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ais523
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Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1029
Mastania wrote:
ais523 wrote:
What's the formula for the basic physical attack (i.e. not a move)? Is that the same, or different?
IIRC it's always 0.5x effectiveness, like a strong resistance.
Thanks; that definitely fits in with my personal observations (against a ghost, a basic attack and Normal-type move tend to do comparable damage).
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