In Angel Island 2, after going through the S-curve, if you press jump when you're precisely level with the ground, you can do a controlled jump. This should enable you to avoid the wait for the rising platform.
I tried this many, many times and could not get it to work. Can you make a GMV showing how you do it?
The first special ring in each Hydrocity act seems to take a long time to recover from. Perhaps you should skip those rings and use others?
As far off my path as those rings are, if I skip them, my emerald collection is incomplete until ice-cap. I think the early super knux is worth it. At least it's worth the first giant ring in act 1. If I only get 1 in act 2 I could get the 7th without losing too much time as early as... carnival night act 2.
EDIT:
Wait, I could still make super in Marble Garden Zone 1. it would require a few seconds of backtracking, but not nearly as much as HydroCity Zone 2 does. I'm a dumbass. I think Hydrocity Zone 1 is still worth getting both giant rings, though.
Mr. Pwnage wrote:
In Special Stage 5, you're traveling backwards through the room with 4 blue spheres, and after you get the second one and turn, I notice you pressed forward, causing redundant steps into a bumper and back. Is there a point to this?
If I jumped at the first possible frame without hitting that bumper, I wouldn't be able to turn on the next blue sphere. Which would cause two extra squares worth of redundant movement, instead of the current slightly-under-half a square
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
I found* a big time saver: When you exit a tunnel vertically, such as at frame 14740 in your movie, there is 1 frame where you can jump directly out of the exit, if you entered the tunnel in just the right way. That means instead of going straight up, you can leave it at an angle and perform a glide out of that. In that one location alone it saves 400+ frames because it means you don't have to wait for that platform to come back down to get onto it. It could save time in other places by allowing you to immediately stop and spindash at the exit.
EDIT: Here is a demo movie, which is your last WIP until that part.
*EDIT2: I swear I did not see Mr. Pwnage's post above. However, he didn't mention that in both of upthorn's movies, he never became precisely level with the ground for even 1 frame.
If you spot any errors, now is the time to let me know.
Very well, I don't normally comment on test runs because I'd rather just let the person get on with it and get used to the mechanics of the game rather than questioning everything that happened.
1. After you get the first emerald was there a good reason for Spin dashing left then right instead of spin dashing right. You probally wouldn't be able to get out from the postion with a full dash, but I sure that a partial spin dash would get you out faster than a two max spin dashes withing a short period of each other.
2. Was taking damage really necessary during the first two boss battles, I thought at first you were trying to reduce the end stage bonus, but its a 50,000 countdown. I'm sure that getting damaged causes lag because of all the calculations required to work out where the rings will go.
3. I hope thats the optimal time to hit the switch after Robotnik.
4. I understand why the HC boss was slow, since the elavator on the next stage wouldn't be positioned correctly.
5. Was that the optimal way to perform the water slide glitch in HC.
6. Was there a good reason for doing a full 180 at the start of the special with the blue tiles.
7. I think where you take damage on the spikes could of been better, I think you glided and then fell half-way to take damage. Surely it would be better to take a minimal jump and maximum distance to damage boost to the right at the earliest opertunity and then spin dash when you land. The spikes do have favourable physics in Sonic 2+3.
Well you asked me if you thought I saw any errors (even if I wasn't sure myself) and there you go.
I'm starting to think that the boringness of the special stages and repetitiveness of the super music will jeopardize the chances this run has of being published. Nobody has said that, but not many people have posted their opinions, and it's not uncommon for everyone to say "wait, this is boring" only after a run is done and submitted. (If only the bonus stages gave emeralds... those look a lot more fun.)
EDIT: I should clarify that this is turning out to be interesting enough that I would actually like to see this done, although I think a Knuckles run that doesn't collect the emeralds would also make for a good movie.
I found a big time saver: When you exit a tunnel vertically, such as at frame 14740 in your movie, there is 1 frame where you can jump directly out of the exit, if you entered the tunnel in just the right way. That means instead of going straight up, you can leave it at an angle and perform a glide out of that. In that one location alone it saves 400+ frames because it means you don't have to wait for that platform to come back down to get onto it. It could save time in other places by allowing you to immediately stop and spindash at the exit.
EDIT: Here is a demo movie, which is your last WIP until that part.
Awesome, thanks for the help.
nitsuja wrote:
I'm starting to think that the boringness of the special stages and repetitiveness of the super music will jeopardize the chances this run has of being published. Nobody has said that, but not many people have posted their opinions, and it's not uncommon for everyone to say "wait, this is boring" only after a run is done and submitted. (If only the bonus stages gave emeralds... those look a lot more fun.)
Well maybe it will, but I'm doing my best to force people to ignore that the special stages are boring by breaking the game in as many ways as I can.
Like... zipping, falling through solid obstacles, and bypassing the events that load boss music.
If it doesn't get published, it doesn't get published, but I can live with that.
AKA wrote:
1. After you get the first emerald was there a good reason for Spin dashing left then right instead of spin dashing right. You probally wouldn't be able to get out from the postion with a full dash, but I sure that a partial spin dash would get you out faster than a two max spin dashes withing a short period of each other.
It's not a max spin dash, it's a partial spin dash. While a partial spindash would get me out sooner, it wouldn't get me out with the same amount of speed, and I'd lose time overall, or I'd have to stop and spin-dash again. So it's a quick left and a full right vs a quick right and a full right later.
AKA wrote:
2. Was taking damage really necessary during the first two boss battles, I thought at first you were trying to reduce the end stage bonus, but its a 50,000 countdown. I'm sure that getting damaged causes lag because of all the calculations required to work out where the rings will go.
The invincibility time allows me to attack the boss and jump through him so I can bounce on top. Knuckles doesn't jump high enough to bounce on top of the boss without jumping through. Sonic 3 has a cap on the number of rings that spray out to prevent lag.
AKA wrote:
3. I hope thats the optimal time to hit the switch after Robotnik.
As much as I wish it weren't, that is the first possible frame to hit the switch.
AKA wrote:
5. Was that the optimal way to perform the water slide glitch in HC.
I didn't test extensively, but I copied it from SprintGod's run. Maybe with Knuckles' low jump height an extra rev would be in order.
AKA wrote:
6. Was there a good reason for doing a full 180 at the start of the special with the blue tiles.
A full 180 takes slightly less time than walking forward to the bunch that's 4 squares away and straight ahead.
AKA wrote:
7. I think where you take damage on the spikes could of been better, I think you glided and then fell half-way to take damage. Surely it would be better to take a minimal jump and maximum distance to damage boost to the right at the earliest opertunity and then spin dash when you land. The spikes do have favourable physics in Sonic 2+3.
... Good point. I only really tested two ways of doing that. There are probably a few faster ones.
Since I have to redo HC2 anyway (skipping the first ring, picking it up in MG1 instead) it won't even be that much of an issue to test a bit more exhaustively.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
3. I hope thats the optimal time to hit the switch after Robotnik.
As much as I wish it weren't, that is the first possible frame to hit the switch.
However, you can save about 90 (out-of-level) frames by hitting it on that frame from a regular jump instead of a spindash jump, because that allows you to turn around instantly before gliding, allowing you to land early enough to spindash to the right before the Knuckles does the victory animation.
3. I hope thats the optimal time to hit the switch after Robotnik.
As much as I wish it weren't, that is the first possible frame to hit the switch.
However, you can save about 90 (out-of-level) frames by hitting it on that frame from a regular jump instead of a spindash jump, because that allows you to turn around instantly before gliding, allowing you to land early enough to spindash to the right before the Knuckles does the victory animation.
When I tried this in the test runs I was unable to get enough left-ward velocity to hit the button.
Then again, I wasn't perfect about testing exhaustively in the test runs, as I was concentrating on routes.
Edit: so waiting for the capsule to double back a bit is faster than waiting for knuckles to turn around mid-glide.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Edit: so waiting for the capsule to double back a bit is faster than waiting for knuckles to turn around mid-glide.
Yes, but you can get it while it's still moving left without spindashing there. You have to stand all the way on the right then jump and move left in the air, and jump again at the very edge.
I've tested this, and it seems like the increase in speed in the bonus stages happenes at a fixed interval after you start moving. I tried running in circles and watching my speed in memory, and it always increased at the same time as the WIP, with a few frames of error (<6) probably from lag and/or being in the middle of a turn when the speed would have increased.
It's not exactly an optimization, although it's possible that turning earlier or later could result in a minor speed increase, if it you ensure that you're not turning at the wrong time.
In HC2, you can get through the 2nd blue slide that you go down at about 1:10, with out stopping. If you need an example you can view http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2070/S3kknuckles.gmv,
but you have some unoptimized crap to fastforward through.
Its pretty simple anyways, just jump and hold left and when you get close to the slide glide for a frame and you'll go right through it.
I'm not really sure if its faster but it eliminates a stop and a spin dash so it might be.
offtopic: maybe I should name my files better...
edit: thanks Idea
I've tested this, and it seems like the increase in speed in the bonus stages happenes at a fixed interval after you start moving. I tried running in circles and watching my speed in memory, and it always increased at the same time as the WIP, with a few frames of error (<6) probably from lag and/or being in the middle of a turn when the speed would have increased.
It's not exactly an optimization, although it's possible that turning earlier or later could result in a minor speed increase, if it you ensure that you're not turning at the wrong time.
Holding up seems to decrease this interval by 1 or 2 frames. Just enough that if you start the stages at the same time, the one that holds up will gradually pull ahead, and finish about half a second earlier.
Dustin wrote:
In HC2, you can get through the 2nd blue slide that you go down at about 1:10, with out stopping...
Thanks for the tip, but I've already redone my route in HC2 to skip the first giant ring, and follow SprintGod's route (up until I grab the second one, anyway). You'll notice that SprintGod's route falls straight through that same blue slide. Though it might be even faster if I jump down and glide through, I'll have to test.
Edit: Yup, it is. Yet another minor route revision on HC2.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Dustin, you can give the file any name you want once it's uploaded to Microstorage. Microstorage gives you the file based on the number in the URL, not the name.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/2070/xyz will still give you the same file, although it won't be as clear what it is.
Upth: I'll have to look more closely at this. From the values I found in memory, it appeared that the speed increased by 4 (probably 4px/frame) every 1770-1793 frames, with the interval being fixed for each bonus stage.
edit: Here are the values I found, although they may not be valuable (har) without a memory viewer.
e423 special state x-major
e422 special state x-minor
e425 special state y-major
e424 special state y-minor
e433 special state z-status
e429 special state speed
WIP updated. Revised second special stage route, Angel Island 2 post-boss antics, and hydrocity 2 route.
Additionally completed Marble Garden 1 and 2, as well as completing the first set of emeralds.
IdeaMagnate wrote:
Upth: I'll have to look more closely at this. From the values I found in memory, it appeared that the speed increased by 4 (probably 4px/frame) every 1770-1793 frames, with the interval being fixed for each bonus stage.
All I can say is that turning at all the same locations, the gmv which held up while moving forward consistently completed every special stage a few frames (10-30) faster than the one which did not, and was moving one increment faster at the end about 3/4s of the time.
There are certain other situations where I've observed the time between speed increases to vary somewhat, so I suspect that the 1770-1793 values you're showing are the base values for each, and some calculations are run on them depending on a variety of factors.
I am also 90 percent certain that knuckles recieves the speed boosts slightly more frequently than sonic (which is consistent with Knuckles being the "hard mode")
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Sorry to bring up improvements pretty early on again, didn't notice them before but they're adding up to quite a bit and I'm sure most things, at least the special stages, can be hexed back in.
The jump on frame 5278 only slows you down, and you can get slightly better jumps from the top of loops by rolling at the top of the loop as you start going down and then jumping a few frames later, at the optimal frame for each of course. The speed should show at least 4300 running up that log, and 5000+ on that ramp jump over the water before the spring, for about 10 frames faster to reach the level transition.
When you fight the boss at the end of act 1, taking damage is definitely not fastest. Beating it about 45 (maybe 50) frames faster is possible by repeatedly spindashing at it.
You can jump around frame 13564 to get running and jump again from the platform to come to a stop under the spikes ~5 frames sooner.
The triple loop around 13935 can be done much faster (~13 frames) by doing more jumping and less rolling. Rolling has a speed cap.
Sorry to bring up improvements pretty early on again, didn't notice them before but they're adding up to quite a bit and I'm sure most things, at least the special stages, can be hexed back in.
Hey, the sooner you bring them up, the less work I have to redo if they cause desyncs.
So far, though, I've been very successful at hex-editing changes in. The only thing I'm worried about is that if you find improvements in Marble Garden 1, it may desync Marble Garden 2.
...Or that the changes in Angel Island 1 will desync Angel Island 2's moving platforms, causing me to have to re-do most of the stage.
Oh well, at least it's a short one.
nitsuja wrote:
The jump on frame 5278 only slows you down, and you can get slightly better jumps from the top of loops by rolling at the top of the loop as you start going down and then jumping a few frames later, at the optimal frame for each of course. The speed should show at least 4300 running up that log, and 5000+ on that ramp jump over the water before the spring, for about 10 frames faster to reach the level transition.
The jump on frame 5278 got me to the log 2 frames faster as compared to not jumping. The log seems to have a speed cap -- no matter how fast I was going before I hit the log, I don't make better than 4023 running up it.
5000+? Were you testing with Sonic? I haven't hit speeds that high even with Hyper Knuckles.
EDIT:
Done and done.
nitsuja wrote:
When you fight the boss at the end of act 1, taking damage is definitely not fastest. Beating it about 45 (maybe 50) frames faster is possible by repeatedly spindashing at it.
Oh. I just kind of assumed it would be, because on every other boss, repeatedly spindashing is markedly slower.
EDIT:
Done.
nitsuja wrote:
You can jump around frame 13564 to get running and jump again from the platform to come to a stop under the spikes ~5 frames sooner.
Okay, I'll try that.
Edit:
Done.
nitsuja wrote:
The triple loop around 13935 can be done much faster (~13 frames) by doing more jumping and less rolling. Rolling has a speed cap.
I tested every frame where it was possible to jump after the jump I did, and they each caused me to complete the loop I was on slower by at least 1 frame. I haven't tested now that I have the speed watcher, but I suspect that even if I get higher speeds doing that, they'll drop faster, And the jump will end up slower.
But I'll try it, it seems I'm usually wrong about these things.
Edit:
After the high jump it's only saved 7 frames. But hey.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
>I tested every frame where it was possible to jump after the jump I did, and they each caused me to complete the loop I was on slower by at least 1 frame.
Every jump delays you for one frame (in Sonic 1 and 2 at least), can't that be the reason? Perhaps the increase in speed doesn't make up for it.
I'll check the new WIP in short while, but I doubt that I can come up with more improvements than nitsuja.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Finally took the time to view your wip. For the first time I got entertained watching someone TASing the bonus stages. I especially liked when you walked backwards. Never played with Knuckles or seen him (is he a hedgehog too?) in action so now I could see his limitations, such as he cannot jump high, which was evident in your boss battles.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Never played with Knuckles or seen him (is he a hedgehog too?) in action so now I could see his limitations, such as he cannot jump high, which was evident in your boss battles.
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
No, he is a spiky Mickey Mouse!!
Actually, knuckles is an Echidna, which is a species of anteater with spines and behavior similar to a porcupine/hedgehog.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
I don't know how much of this you've already changed your mind about (judging by the edits), but:
upthorn wrote:
5000+? Were you testing with Sonic? I haven't hit speeds that high even with Hyper Knuckles.
The ramp speeds you up a lot. SprintGod hit 5459 there with Sonic, and Sonic isn't inherently faster than Knuckles. Knuckles could be at a disadvantage here since his jumps aren't as good, but I've still seen him reach ~5040 there.
upthorn wrote:
The jump on frame 5278 got me to the log 2 frames faster as compared to not jumping. The log seems to have a speed cap -- no matter how fast I was going before I hit the log, I don't make better than 4023 running up it.
Getting there a little sooner is no good if you're going slower when you get there. The log doesn't seem to have any speed cap. 4300 isn't too hard to reach getting there as long as you don't jump up the loop there and you do roll(?) and jump from the top of the loop. I didn't test extensively so more than that might be possible. Look at SprintGod's movie there; Knuckles ought to handle those loops very similarly.
upthorn wrote:
I tested every frame where it was possible to jump after the jump I did, and they each caused me to complete the loop I was on slower by at least 1 frame.
In this case it's better to compare which one gets through all 3 loops and hits the upward slope faster (it's hard to find a good frame to compare speeds on in loops). The speed cap for rolling is 4096, so once you reach that it's best to jump out of it on a steep downard slope to start going even faster, and only running and sometimes jumping after that point.
Truncated wrote:
I'll check the new WIP in short while, but I doubt that I can come up with more improvements than nitsuja.
I stopped looking once he reached Hydrocity zone.
Found another one in Angel Island 1: After you get the 2nd emerald, you can land on the ledge with the star post directly from the spring (you were 1 frame away from doing it), and from there go through the spikes and spindash away past them before they even start to retract.
Found another one in Angel Island 1: After you get the 2nd emerald, you can land on the ledge with the star post directly from the spring (you were 1 frame away from doing it), and from there go through the spikes and spindash away past them before they even start to retract.
You're kidding!
I gave up on that after about 50 tries, and appearantly the 50th try is only 1 frame away from being successful.
Oh man.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Hydrocity 1: After breaking through the first wall, you can glide left and wallclimb until you can glide over to the 2-propeller block. Also, Knuckles glides faster than he moves along those conveyor belt things even when they're moving in the right direction. Saved about 220 frames here.
Keep these improvements coming, I'm taking a break for the rest of the day to get some IRL stuff done, and I'll incorporate any improvements you find before I continue.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Edit:
After the high jump it's only saved 7 frames. But hey.
Here's 14 frames saved there: S3KWipV3_demo2.gmv
But I'm done looking for improvements for now.
Random question about special stages: If holding up saves a small amount of time, doesn't that mean walking backwards wastes time because you're not holding up then? What about holding down when you're walking backwards, does that help? Also, I am guessing that holding up only helps for 1 frame of each turn you make; if it constantly changed anything it would save more than 30 or so frames, and turning is the only action you do that few times throughout the stage.
