Post by meepers

Posted: 9/18/2006 6:59 PM
(Edited: 9/18/2006 7:37 PM)

Post subject: Question regarding 30Hz autofire?

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Mitjitsu

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Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

This is not a question regarding whether or not 30hz autofire is possible, but what is the likely human limit in realtime. Its impossible to produce it for several reasons which are mostly mathmatically based. 1. You must over come the force of the button caused by the weight of the button (this may seem laughable but its true) 2. The button must travel a few centimeters to touch the metal plates inside the controller 3. The finger must be released and then a human must build up enough power again to be able to overcome the force of the button (think of the human thumb like a capacitor) 4. Humans actually get tired by the stress caused by this. Activites that take the most energy are the stop start ones. On average I without making too big a deal of it, I can produce maybe 11-12 Hz, but someone who speacialises could probally mange 16-17 Hz and maybe with a special setup i.e. hand in freezer for an hour. It may be possible to get 20Hz. Although there must be calculations that could actually prove what a human could do. I brought this up out of a matter of interest.

Posted: 9/18/2006 7:09 PM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1099)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

This is interesting, i can't think how to go about the physics of it (perhaps an equation involving pressure in relation to what a human can actually accomplish, i.e average reaction times, returning momentum of the thumb). It would also depend on console; the handsets can be thinner on some and so i assume that the distance between the button and metal plate would vary.

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 9/18/2006 8:43 PM

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P.JBoy

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If you smash the button down so it springs up quicker and alternate hands that takes 2 factors down

Posted: 9/18/2006 8:44 PM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (297)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

I've heard there's someone who can do 20 Hz. Can't back it up with references now though.

Posted: 9/19/2006 12:23 AM

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BillBull

Former player

Joined: 5/22/2004
Posts: 462

The fastest I've heard is 16 Hz, however I can't find a references either :P I remember it was a Japanese guy who recieved a bit of publicity for being able to button mash so quickly on the NES.

Posted: 9/19/2006 1:06 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Posts: 5712

Well, you don't have to let the button pop all the way up... Just keep it right next to the "down" position for the shortest distance and therefore the highest rate. That's the challenge.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 9/19/2006 1:34 AM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Reminds me of this thread about button mashing. The fastest mentioned there I'm willing to believe is 16 or 17. (32 per second, yeah right.)

Posted: 9/19/2006 2:16 AM
(Edited: 9/19/2006 2:38 AM)

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JSmith

Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 428

There's another issue; Once you get above about 20 Hz, you have to worry about hitting them at a constant rate. If you don't keep even intervals between hits, the machine starts combining your button presses and registers <10Hz if your a bit off or as low as 4Hz if you're way uneven. I used to have that problem on Mario Party games.:( I'm sure that 40Hz is within the range of human ability, if 2 hands are used. EDIT: I recall one time playing some gamecube game where I was mashing as fast as I could (about 16 Hz, might have been with 2 hands). Then most of thte way through the minigame a spectator says I'm losing and I look up and sure enough I'm hardly going anywhere. I slowed up to an even ~9 Hz one hand and it actually sped me up by almost a factor of 2.

Trying 127.0.0.1... telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused telnet: Unable to connect to remote host

Posted: 9/19/2006 2:18 AM

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4matsy

Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 498

Article regarding old-school button masher. Super-awesome video of said old-school button masher (from some 80's movie).

Posted: 9/19/2006 2:02 PM

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2479)

Joined: 4/8/2005
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Mike Mangini can perform more than 1200 strokes in 60 seconds (with drum sticks). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Mangini

Posted: 9/19/2006 4:00 PM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1099)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

The reason that 20Hz is so unlikely is due to human fatigue. If anyone could possibly do it over one second they certainly couldn't maintain it. Anyone who has ever survived the MGS torture scene (without turbo-fire of course) knows what i mean. It is extremely painful; for the first couple of rounds you can keep your health relatively full, however, for the last one you can visibly watch your healthbar sink away and if you do make it it is by a whisker. I only ever did it by forming a fist and battering the control-pad through my desk. However, i don't reckon that even this torture scene will require anything above 10Hz (does anyone know? someone could TAS it to find out). I think anything above 10Hz sustained is a lot to ask of any human being. However, there will be people who can do it (Bisqwit makes reference to this in the Turbo use section of the FAQ), and how DO these people do it? Do they (like me) form a fist and batter away? Or can such feats be accomplished by the conventional fingers and thumbs?

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 9/19/2006 4:31 PM

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Mitjitsu

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Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

Actually I find the arm wresting in Shemue 2 really painful, it hurts my wrist and makes it go all floppy. Me and a friend needed to alternate because it had to be mainted at roughly at roughly 10 Hz (I think) just to be able to keep the the contest steady. I think 12-13 is needed to actually push the momentum against the computer in order to win, but you certainly have to maintain it for ages.

Posted: 9/21/2006 1:42 AM

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JSmith

Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 428

Mukki wrote:

The reason that 20Hz is so unlikely is due to human fatigue. If anyone could possibly do it over one second they certainly couldn't maintain it. ... I think anything above 10Hz sustained is a lot to ask of any human being. However, there will be people who can do it (Bisqwit makes reference to this in the Turbo use section of the FAQ), and how DO these people do it? Do they (like me) form a fist and batter away? Or can such feats be accomplished by the conventional fingers and thumbs?

Here's how I do it: 1)Spread fingers on one hand as widely as possible 2)Bend fingers and keep them rigid 3)Slide hand back and forth so that the fingers push the button as they pass over it, and the button has the space/time to pop back up in the middle. Using this method, maintaining 10Hz is easy, 15 is doable and 20 is barely possible. Large hands required. Tips:It's more important to keep it even and hit the button every time than to do it fast, since it's quite possible to hit the button twice in a frame. If 5 fingers is too difficult, try 3+thumb or even just 3.

Trying 127.0.0.1... telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused telnet: Unable to connect to remote host

Posted: 9/21/2006 5:16 AM

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pirate_sephiroth

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I remember I could make "bunny" mario float in Super Mario Land 2...

"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate

Bisqwit wrote:

Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.

Posted: 9/21/2006 8:14 AM

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SpiDeY

Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 317
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

a good technique is to instead of moving your fingers, moving your gamepad. It works well for me :P

Posted: 9/21/2006 8:40 AM

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BillBull

Former player

Joined: 5/22/2004
Posts: 462

4matsy wrote:

Article regarding old-school button masher. Super-awesome video of said old-school button masher (from some 80's movie).

This is the guy I was thinking of. Thanks for clarifying who he was!

Posted: 9/23/2006 12:53 PM

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Xkeeper

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Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850

This is making me want to make a small QBASIC program that just tracks how fast you hit a button... That way I could actually find out what it is.

Perma-banned

Posted: 9/23/2006 6:36 PM

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Tafatt

Joined: 12/10/2004
Posts: 82
Location: Ruotsi

http://people.csail.mit.edu/paulfitz/plank/s19980801_i_clicker.html Here is a game you can click the mousebutton as fast as you can. I got 14 on best rate in a given second.

Posted: 9/23/2006 6:45 PM

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Mitjitsu

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Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

I could only get 7 although its not the best way to test it because mouses are designed differently. You could do it with a spacebar, which is what I use for frame advance. I use a staircase method with my middle three fingers, then again I have a low lying flat spacebar which would give a high rate. Even that isn't fair because of the way different keyboards a are designed. The best method would be rubbing method, but thats not possible with the mouse I have.

Posted: 9/23/2006 8:09 PM

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OmnipotentEntity

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Posts: 2630

Well, you can use the spacebar, mouse and the Enter key. I got 22 doing that.

Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.

Posted: 9/23/2006 8:33 PM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

That sort of thing doesn't work too well in an actual game that checks input at 60Hz, as too many presses happen on the same frame as another press, making it detect a much slower rate.

Posted: 9/23/2006 8:46 PM

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