Although you had alot of benefits from my demo, and very likely wouldn't match my Zebes times without studying it carefully, I'm highly impressed of your optimization level.
Really nice WIP Saturn! I'm amazed you were able to beat Saturn's frame perfect Zebes, way to go Saturn!
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
I know this sounds crazy, but the difference between a 24 end game time and a 23 end game time is much much closer than we all could have imagined. Even with my specially designed realtime route, I think the 23 is possible. I am going to be submitting my run soon, so we will know then how much more time needs to be saved. It would be a great day when we see a real time oriented run, achieve the best in-game timer also.
This is indeed crazy. I really have a doubt this will ever be possible though, as you would basicly need to save ~30 more seconds over the currently known standard. But if the possibility indeed exists to get a 0:23 with that route, then I'm all for optimizing everything for ingame time as much as needed (without pause screen abuse). A 0:23 with the realtime route would just be the ultimate!
Btw hero, do you already have some rough estimates how close you can get to 0:23 judging by your current WIP?
Tub wrote:
just like they had to closely study your escape demo to barely match your time. right.
Keep in mind that Ceres was only about optimizing subpixels at doors. Taco had his advantages here since he (and probably everybody else) monitors the subpixel values, where I did it blindly all the time. Zebes on the other hand requires alot of strange techs to get perfect times, and without the help of my smv, it's a safe bet that most of them would be missed, which would lose them far more than the amount saved in Ceres. Even I missed a few frames there as you see, which just proves the Zebes difficulty again.
Cpadolf wrote:
Yes, I guess the reason that it was overlooked by so many is that you can't gain the distance needed to save a frame here by better speedmanagement (A rough guess is that with the best possible you would be maybe 2-3 pixles away) but you can shoot the door earlier with better speedmanagement as the needed distance to gain is obviously smaller.
Exactly. It's all about the shot, not Samus distance. And only because you have to skip a few pumps when the door opens anyway, you can regain the missing distance to finally save the full frame when entering it.
Cpadolf wrote:
Well I found out that you can actually delay the last shinespark by a good deal of time (I have not checked but I think I do it by 1-2 seconds) and still get the drops at roughly the same time (my guess is that he dies faster if he is closer to the middle of the room) , I use it to spam healthdrops from him which allows me to do an extra shinespark later in the run and in a realtime run it would mean that you are able to skip the drops from him completely, bombjumping up to the door skipping two pause screens and still have enough health for the shinespark in the big room without making huge delays to get refills earlier.
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. You get alot of important refills without losing any time at all that way. ;-)
I think the extra shinespark will be the one before entering the grey door that leads to the Plasma area, right? Should save around a half second.
Cpadolf wrote:
I estimate my any% to land somewhere between 23:45 and 23:50 so that would mean (if it is possible) that the realtime route is much much closer to the ingame route timewise than I thought.
Same here. I seriously have some doubts the realtime route can be close enough to the ingame one to warrant a high 0:23 as of now. Let's see what hero will come up with his run to clear this mystery.
Cpadolf wrote:
Also watch Kriole/Taco go insane in the big diagonal room when searching for perfection :P I'll be really disappointed if you are slower than 290 frames in that room.
Indeed. This is the room that is made exactly for TASer like Taco, as it depends entirely on subpixel optimizations, which no other can handle as good as him.
I think the extra shinespark will be the one before entering the grey door that leads to the Plasma area, right? Should save around a half second.
Yes that is the one, and the gain IIRC is quite precisely half a second.
Also I have to redo my run from kraid... I was all the way up to the gold pirate shaft in LN and now I have to redo that because of one small miscalculation in health and absolutely no good way to get more health between kraid-LN. I hate this part of the run, last time I had to redo about 4 times for different reasons in the interval of plasma and icebeam.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Saturn,
I have already broken the 24:30 mark, and I still have all of maridia to do. When considering the amount of fixes I have left to implement, my final time could be 24:15.
4-5 seconds on draygon
1-2 seconds on the well bugs in the top of maridia
1-2 seconds in the Catnap style wall breaking method
1 second maybe fixing up the botwoon exit
1 second shinespark fix on Zebes escape sequence
1-2 seconds on baby metroid escape
1 second on the Metroid room 1
1 second in the room above the redbrinstar elevator
2-3 seconds on other general optimizations
I have little doubt that the 23 can eventually be achieved.
It is impressive that you are already done with LN (at least it sounds like it), last time we spoke you where heading for Kraid and that was like 3-4 days ago...
Cpadolf:
Thats why you should "always" plan your runs ahead before working your ass off to optimize them just to find out that there are some inaccuracies in the ammo/health management.
Hero:
Well, 15 seconds despite a already near to the limit optimized run are still alot. This are 900 frames after all. Even with optimizing the entire route for ingame, it wouldn't be enough without a major new speed-trick. A pity that it is so close, but on the other hand you can fully concentrate to optimize the run for realtime (other than the escapes) even if it requires larger ingame sacrifices.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Cpadolf,
Yeah, I am done with that scumbag ridley :P I am at the green bubble room en route to maridia right now. I am just working to get a couple decent item drops on the way, and the rest of the run should go quickly with the exception of botwoon and draygon. It sounds like you and I might finish our runs around the same time. It will be awesome to see the overall time real/in-game time differences.
Saturn,
Yeah 15 seconds is a lot, but for some reason I feel like it might be possible. Once I submit my run, feel free to dissect it and point out every little mistake in it.
Thats why you should "always" plan your runs ahead before working your ass off to optimize them just to find out that there are some inaccuracies in the ammo/health management.
Well I did plan very very carefully, I spent a lot of time to think about the best possibilities for the kraid-LN part and so on. However misinterpreting a 44 as a 14 or a 14 as a 44 at one point in time (the time table looked something like 14:44:14 and the other one 14:44:44 and I only looked at the times hastily, foolish) made me think that I could save some energy on a shinesperk in LN without loosing time and then my run crashed... hard.
hero of the day wrote:
It sounds like you and I might finish our runs around the same time
15 sec to improve from a new hero-run? Unrealistic, sorry. ;-)
But I admire your positive attitude to still believe in it. This is a important quality a TASer should have, as it can urge one to make impossible things happen someday.
I'm also glad you progressed so quickly in the last days. Did you manage to get a similar Ridley KO-grab like I did in the RBO demo?
Also a hint for Botwoon exit without HJ-Boots:
Try to not use a walljump from the breaking wall like you did in v1, but rather clear the wall with a momentum-full jump, even if it would require you to wait for the 2nd block to blow off. It would still be faster in the end than what you did before.
But very important (assuming you don't know about it yet):
Make sure to not exit Botwoons room too quickly, because if you do so, you won't trigger his death. When you return to that room, he will be alive again, which would mean that you'd have to redo everyting again from his fight on. Delay just as many frames as needed when exiting the right door after the fight, and be sure to check back the room whether he is really dead before continuing the run.
Cpadolf:
I see, bad luck. At least you got some beta run to compare to that way, which 1. eases the redoing part alot, and 2. allows you to eventually find even more improvements having more knowledge in this rooms already.
And about which run should be published, I think both would deserve it, as they both achive their unique goals, and will be of extremely high quality. Hero's one will be more appreciated here, but yours gets a 0:23 the first time ever in SM's history, which is a special thing as well.
And about which run should be published, I think both would deserve it, as they both achive their unique goals, and will be of extremely high quality. Hero's one will be more appreciated here, but yours gets a 0:23 the first time ever in SM's history, which is a special thing as well.
Well yes, though I was just pointing out the fact that my own has absolutely no chance.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Saturn,
haha, thanks man :)
Anywho, the botwoon escape in my first run was horrible. What you described is what I had planned for my new run. It should more than save the amount of time lost for not using the wave beam combo.
My Ridley KO is not really great, but I had to delay to get good item drops. This is a critical time for collecting stuff, since I will need many more super missiles without using the wave beam combo on botwoon.
Sigh, I'm finally back in LN. I gained some 5-6 frames though lost ~30 because of necessary delays. I'll try to finish up the rest in the time of 2-3 days.
EDIT: Friggin gawd yes :) I got a damn close to perfect KO grab from ridley after a lot of hard work, there is basically almost no room form improvement. Between his hp reaching 0 and the first small explosion on him getting visible it takes only 59 frames (would be interesting if Saturn could check how long it took in his RBO). The lack of one PB in his drops will slow me down by a small amount of frames later but the second best I got was 7 frames slower and had very few super which would likely slow me down more.
After getting out from LN the rest of the run (except for some metroid rooms and the escape) is a cakewalk.
I got a damn close to perfect KO grab from ridley after a lot of hard work, there is basically almost no room form improvement. Between his hp reaching 0 and the first small explosion on him getting visible it takes only 59 frames (would be interesting if Saturn could check how long it took in his RBO).
Saturn could check how long it took in his RBO run. It was 54 frames. Doing it with Plasma is more difficult though, because you have less time to manipulate Ridleys position before killing him due to the much stronger shots. 59 is really really good in this conditions. Respect.
Damn 5 frames slower :)
Well it is so random that it would be almost impossible to do it any faster, you would have to get him to do a similar grab (only that is almost impossible, it is super rare to get one that looks like this) at a totally different position without loosing any time doing so, and even then it is completely random how fast it will be, it could be a few frames faster or a few frames slower.
I predict that a sub 45 frames KO will never happen.
Also I'll probably post the run in a few hours. I'm past baby metroid 18 seconds ahead of my old run :)
Incredible!
But don't rush too much to finish it. Let you time for the last parts, to not risk unnecessary mistakes in them. It doesn't make a difference whether you finish it 1 hour earlier or later now.
I know, I tried to make the MB fight as good looking as possible, I think it is quite nice now. Also I'm 18 seconds and 45 frames ahead now after MB 3rd phase. Only the escape left now :)
The last two room might take some time though, I hate steam...
Hah, who could have though that the escape clock was improvable by almost 30 centiseconds, that sure came out of nowhere for me :)
Anyway the run is finished, new time is 23:45:00 which is 19 seconds and 22 frames faster than the old run. I'm gonna go write a submission text and then it will be up.
guess this topic is more fitting for a reply.
Cpadolf wrote:
I will use a realtime oriented route (though the route might be the fasters ingame route too, but I'm not 100% sure on that) but I might end up optimizing door-entries for ingame time (not sure yet) since 00:36 is very tantalizing
don't forget that you'll get around 25 seconds just by skipping the torizo, so you'll need only ~30 seconds of gameplay improvements. Since JXQ didn't use many CWJs, you'll get a lot from that. Then there are all the newer room strategies that have been found. I'm just guessing here, but are you sure 0:36 is impossible when going strictly for real-time? Just look at the amount of time you managed to save on your old run, or hero saved on his.
There's also been talk a couple of pages back about a route change, delaying Kraid until you have PBs, thus doing the first norfair part suitless. IIRC there was no conclusion if it's feasible / faster, but maybe it'll turn out to save you another couple of seconds.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
JXQ's run was very tightly optimized, I wouldn't expect to find too many "loose" frames floating around. I do think the 36 is possible, but it will no doubt be very close. The run would have to put an emphasis on doing the doors in favor of in-game time.
I think the route that will be used is the new wavebeamless route I recently designed. Skipping the wave beam until the end of the removes two door transitions, as well as makes my varialess norfair route much easier to manage. If energy is managed well enough, Kraid can be saved for after Draygon. This route however has a big emphasis on real time, the in-game consequences are hard to tell at this point. Both of the pause menu visits can also be removed. If the zebetites are skipped using the speed booster, much in-game time will be lost.
As for my any% run, I am almost done :)
Draygon is just sucking the life out of me. I desperately need him to drop a super missile. Apparently the odds of that happening are like 1 in 10,000. I have been shooting his little gray blobs for a while and only got it to drop once. Once I kill him, it will be smooth sailing.
