Player (98)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Are you going to use the x-ray trick to get the gravity suit faster, or are all x-ray tricks off limit? It would be sad to see that trick not implemented since it is one of the few x-ray tricks that isn't downright boring, but I guess consistency in rules is important too.
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Yeah we are not going to use it. Mainly, like you said, it would be inconsistent to use the trick there and not in tourian. Another thing about the early gravity suit trick is that the health/ammo requirements would make all rooms leading up to it look like shit. Though some/many would disagree with me, I am the type of person who likes to see the cut scenes for nostalgia purposes. I also happen to be against using the stand up trick on the mother brain, but I am pretty sure we will end up using it in the run.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Skilled player (1430)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
Well since we now know that 00:36 will, without the slightest of a doubt, be achieved without that trick I figure it would not be as important to use it. I'm willing to go either way, and most likely it will be done both ways, having the audience decide what version to publish.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Experienced player (821)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
This sounds like an awful lot of arbitrary choices for which glitches to use and which ones to avoid. Granted, I don't know what each one is, and I know that the murder beam has been skipped before despite being faster (for in-game time, I think), but how will you guys come up with clear goals that don't boil down to "Chose the fastest route unless it was less entertaining to do so"?
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Skilled player (1430)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
The only two restrictions we have are no X-ray climb and no Space/time beam, both are utterly gamebreaking, ugly and boring. The MB thing mentioned just now will be used, but a separate smv will be made that does fight MB properly, because some (many?) prefer it that way. Most likely the one that get's published is the one that does use the glitch though. I don't think this is too arbitrary, only two restrictions, both are crystal clear and without exceptions. And Space/time beam was well known already when JXQ made his runs, so really it is only one added restriction over the old run. The MB glitch we are talking about is this one by the way.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 279
Location: Finland, Lieksa
I'm very glad your run is at good speed right now, there's a lot of choices to be made due to the timesaving glitches but I believe you'll make the right ones. Good luck.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691 <BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
its so stupid to use bugs to get faster and skip xray climb to get even faster :/ i hate that ... (spacetime is hardware stuff ok you can skip that)
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
because xray climb is ugly looking, and it is considered the most boring/lame part of the recently published any% run. Why take the 100% run (which is entertaining throughout) and add sections of boring xray climbing? If we are going to use an abusive glitch such as that, we might as well just take the plasma beam and spazer beam then make the planet explode prematurely. Being a hardware glitch is irrelevant, because it is possible on the emulator and console.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
:/! i dont think its ugly looking i like it speeeeed :D
Skilled player (1430)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
Here are some random useless but funny/weird videos. Ultimate suicide ball of death! Interesting gravity statue approach And my favorite Samus goes nowhere, FAST
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
That samus on crack vid was awesome. It reminds me of that Super Metroid Insanity teaser that Kejardon posted.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 279
Location: Finland, Lieksa
Hahah I couldn't believe at first that it was all done on the actual game without cheats! Awesome
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691 <BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
OK guys, as you see moozooh just needs some time to realize that having a big mouth without anything behind it is not a good thing. If you don't believe what I said about him in the past, don't worry, time will show that clearly sooner or later anyway. I tried what I could to motivate him to start working on his run so that he could gain his own experience that is required to become a good SM-TASer (and then eventually contribute something new as long as it's not too late), but ok, he either doesn't want to, or more likely just can't get past this early learning-stage. Too bad. Cpadolf and Hero: I'm glad to hear you guys did good progress on the 100% run and support your wise decision to not use the X-Ray climb for entertainment purposes. As hero said, a 100% run should show as much as possible the game has to offer, to which the Gravity Statue walk, even though it's useless and time consuming, counts to as well. Oh, and very nice glitch demos you showed there, Cpadolf. Too bad they are once again useless for any speedrun. :-/
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Player (98)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
OK guys, as you see moozooh just needs some time to realize that having a big mouth without anything behind it is not a good thing. If you don't believe what I said about him in the past, don't worry, time will show that clearly sooner or later anyway. I tried what I could to motivate him to start working on his run so that he could gain his own experience that is required to become a good SM-TASer (and then eventually contribute something new as long as it's not too late), but ok, he either doesn't want to, or more likely just can't get past this early learning-stage. Too bad.
Do you have nothing better to do than attempt to demotivate moozooh? For whatever reasons, if he's not showing signs of producing a SM TAS, that's his problem, and there's no need to put all this unconstructive pressure on him. And if someone else with a promising SM background were to announce they were working on a TAS of the game, would you put them through this malicious bullying as well? I'm sick of seeing your colossal pride and ego clouding your judgment and making you act like an ***hole with respect to other runners of this game. You just take eliticism to a whole new level, and as much as I respect your work, your attitude is despicable.
Experienced player (821)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Vykan12: I think mostly everyone else on this site has come to the conclusion that Saturn is simply being a troll and attention whore nowadays, and it would be better off to just ignore him. Trying to talk sense into him hasn't worked at all, and he won't go away despite the fact that no one likes him being here anymore, so the next best option is to just pretend he isn't here. As for the 100% run, I agree that X-ray climb is boring, but I just worry about the somewhat arbitrary restriction of glitches. But I'm sure whatever you guys make will be entertaining as can be, and won't have any problems getting published, so it's no biggie.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
BigBoct
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH
That Samus on Crack video made me burst out laughing. Thanks, Cpadolf.
Previous Name: boct1584
Experienced player (858)
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden
It is time for the Powerrangers (Taco and Kriole, for people who don't know) to post their first Any% WIP. Get it Here A wall of improvements follows: Currently we are 542 frames ahead of Hero of the Day's v2 (459 realtime frames), when entering the skree-room 2 rooms before spazer. Most of our improvements up to the Power Bombs have already been shown in our RBO. So allow me to concentrate on WS. Instead of jumping off the slopes in the WS shaft, it is slightly faster to fall off. Yes, the speed is the same during the jump, but after the cornerboost, your normal jump speed would go to 1.16384. But if you fall off, the average speed after the cornerboost is still 1.24576, thus putting you ahead several pixels upon landing. Later in the WS shaft is the next timesaver. After morphballing the first time, we optimize our position to be as close to the debris as possible, thus allowing the momentum trick to be utilized for the next demorph. If you don't really understand wtf I'm talking about, just watch it in frame-advance and you should get the idea. The next timesaver is the timesaver Cpadolf accidently spoiled in Spoofers WIP. Although incredibly hard to detect, it saved about 9-13 frames. (This is hard to measure, but it's somewhere in that area) Some weird bug/glitch/abuse allows the eye-door, during certain circumstances, to be shot even though it is not on-screen, and even if it's not opened (I think). Phantoon was gay and gave us shitdrops. Really nothing special here tbh. (He dropped like 7 powerbombs or something). The next timesaver is the debris on the way up from Phantoon (again). The reverse crumble was used, and it was a gain in 3 aspects: You can lay the powerbomb earlier, you get more speed when transitioning, and it is faster framewise. And it's hot. The supermissile room in WS was improved since, 1. we had greater speed due to the crumbleblock trick in the room before, and 2. abusing the left+right transition trick to land in the next room a little earlier. WS shaft again; we abused perfect smb's to gain frames, I don't really know how many, but all in all the room was improved by about 10-12 frames over Cpadolf. Another 1 frame gain in that room was landing on the ledge in the end of the shaft, instead of just walljumping off of it. The Attic was improved by 18 frames over Hero, the explanation here is the damageboost we used instead of the one Hero used. It is rather self-explanatory. The pre-gravity refillroom is also self-explanatory, 9 frames gained. And that also goes for the WS statue-room, 30 frames gained here. The next few rooms were improved only due to optimization, so I'm not gonna tell you what we did here indepth. Avoiding a demorph when falling down to the Red Brinstar elevator saved a couple of frames (nothing new really). Demorphing later but still transitioning at the same frame allows the momentum trick to be utilized for the elevator to avoid running on the ground, 2 frames saved. Using an improved version of Gstick's Red Brinstar fall saved alot of frames, we saved another 10 frames over Gstick. 37 frames saved over Hero. And this is where the WIP ends. To round things up, I still got 2 things to announce. 1. Our Crateria is improvable by 14 frames, many frames have been posted already, but I'll try to explain the ones that are unknown of. 6 frames in the OTES, since Taco found a way to execute a perfect smb on nearly any ledge in the game. 1 frame after OTES, an optimized subpixel when jumping from the 2nd ledge, where a geemer resides, to the 3rd allows you to walljump 1 frame earlier. 1 frame gained in the moozoohjump room when coming from Torizo. Somehow a frame was gained here, no clue how or whatever. 2 frames gained in the Diagonal room, yet again, no clue how it was improved, but this puts it down to 291 frames. 2. I've been working on yet another Saturn route RBO, since I had time to waste. My current gain at the moment is 1837 ingame frames, or 3651 realtime frames. Most of them came from improved tricks etc. There are still MANY optimization frames: I did not bother optimizing anything beyond Crateria (even Crateria isn't fully optimized =(), part of LN may have to be redone, I take too much damage in the kagoball room. Who cares. It's entertaining. Behold
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 279
Location: Finland, Lieksa
Woah the RB fall was amazing. Can you CWJ on the way back in that skree room from the lowest corner and shoot the floor open in air and then fall in there? Just a random thought, or is the ceiling on your way. You can shoot thing out of your way with a missile. I'll edit my thoughts on RBO v4 after watching. This any% WIP was superb.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691 <BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Skilled player (1430)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
That was pretty great, but now of course I have to ask what the hell is a smb? Is it the momentum boost that allows you to land further in on a platform if you position yourself correctly? Also I doubt I have ever seen such horrendous drops from phantoon, one missile, no supers 7!?! Power bombs... But yeah anyway, truly awesome work and breathtaking optimization. But I would actually have preferred a run that optimized everything for realtime, there is a lot time to gain on that, and I would really have liked to see what you guys had come up with if you aimed for that. I'll check that RBO soon. EDIT: And I found a very unexpected timesaver not long ago, the intro can be improved by one frame, which because of what I guess is some frame rule becomes 3 frames (check with input display when I select the gamefile). Now most likely for a run that aims for a ingame optimized ceres this is completely useless, unless it turns out that the manipulation can be made faster with this (or if this allows ceres to be done without delays at all... unlikely as it seems) but still. I guess that's what you get for being lazy with turbo =/ http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1172630866/!Intro!.smv
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Experienced player (858)
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden
Cpadolf wrote:
Is it the momentum boost that allows you to land further in on a platform if you position yourself correctly?
Yes that's about it. The general idea is to grab a ledge while moving towards it, and executing the grab while still having your momentum intact until you land on the ledge itself. You'd want to be as close to the ledge as possible when executing this move. A perfect smb (a subpixel of .65535 when facing right, .0 when facing left) gives you a total gain of 0.32767, that means, half a pixel which quite oftens seems to save a frame. Smb itself stands for subpixel momentum boost.
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 279
Location: Finland, Lieksa
Wasn't the walljump method to the Etecoon PBs faster? Also, why didn't you use hero's way of doing that Dachora room with the speed booster and wave, I thought it's faster. Then again this RBO so far has numerous orgastic small stuff, like the kago ball room blue suit using. Awesomeness to the max. So this the gain you were talking about against your old run or..?
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691 <BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Skilled player (1430)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
Tonski wrote:
Wasn't the walljump method to the Etecoon PBs faster? Also, why didn't you use hero's way of doing that Dachora room with the speed booster and wave, I thought it's faster.
If you need to pick up PB refills the shinespark is faster. About the dachora room though, I think heros method of releasing forward for one frame just before the breakable blocks to lose the bluesuit and then keep running should be faster. Anyway, this RBO looks really great, the level of optimization is of course not on par with the any% you are doing (but not bad either) but it does what a RBO should do, it entertains like nothing else. And there where some really nice tricks here and there, like the kago room in LN on the way back (and the way there also for that matter). I really hope you can finish this one before too long (since you don't need to spend days optimizing small areas) so that we will have at least one completed RBO TAS, instead of 25 that reached the point where you are now before dropping it...
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Experienced player (858)
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden
Tonski wrote:
Also, why didn't you use hero's way of doing that Dachora room with the speed booster and wave, I thought it's faster.
This is a method I have not heard of. O.o
Tonski wrote:
Then again this RBO so far has numerous orgastic small stuff, like the kago ball room blue suit using. Awesomeness to the max. So this the gain you were talking about against your old run or..?
Most gains were... somewhere... I really don't know. It all just sorta happened. I skipped the 2 missiles after the Green Brinstar reserve, which was a good gain. Also I substituted the red brinstar Giant Sidehopperroom PB with the one in the Kagoball room, which was another gain, not only framewise, but also considering the fact that the giant sidehopperroom is boring to optimize. I often open doors before I shinespark, this is a good gain in time. LN and Gauntlet are good examples. And the Mockball in pink brinstar, for the Spore Spawn super missiles is another good timesaver. Also, the Blue Brinstar method, to carry out a morphball through the pre-missile room, also allowed me to gain alot of frames.
Skilled player (1430)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
Kriole wrote:
This is a method I have not heard of. O.o
Here I have not measured if it actually is faster though.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 279
Location: Finland, Lieksa
Yeah Kriole hero had another technique that could also be used in your run: When waiting for that PB to blow in the transition between green and blue brinstar get a short charge and then mockball to the other room, that way you don't have to stop in the blue brinstar sidehopper room to get the charge again. I'm pretty positive it'd be faster.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691 <BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.