can you explain that shinespark position thing for me again? didnt get it? + cant see why it works now, maybe it was a hack or something?
would also be cool if someone translate the description before the trick :D
How would that save time again? Looks like it takes quite a while to set up, and it means you'd either have to kill Kraid first, or do a norfair heat run (not awesome).
I guess you might as well pick up plasma if you're doing this? But it'll cost alot of time in terms of setting up and doing Norfair either without Varia, I'm sure that wont save time though, or doing Kraids lair without speed booster or such, and Norfair without power bombs.
Or am I missing something crucial here?
Heh, the crucial part is what Taco and myself are testing right now. If the idea he just came up with works, we have a new breakthrough.
Could be a few hours.
And this saves time because going through Maridia rather than down the shaft is wayyy faster from that point. The tricky part is doing it without the spark.
Hero, can you please explain more clearly what you mean by using a spark to place the gate in the correct vertical position..?
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I don't really have a scientific answer. Getting a missile to go through the gate was always easy, but it was getting to to register on the green button that was 'impossible'. The missile would always explode past the button, because samus was not able to make the room scroll to the right fast enough. I always hypothesized that a shinespark could cause a rapid scrolling of the room, in which the gate position lined up quickly enough with where the missile would register for a hit. I hope that video is legit... I wouldn't mind seeing an smv for proof.
The description before the trick doesn't say anything telling, just that it's done by using a shinespark to scroll the screen immediately after firing the super missile, that it's only usable in TAS, and that it took 3242 re-records for them to do it.
I left a comment asking them to please explain the input used, but no telling if it'll get seen, given how nico's comments work. =P
By any chance does somebody have any kind of RAM address involving super missles?
Anything that will help with the position logging.
EDIT: Ok, after some serious testing, myself and Taco have discovered these things:
1) The absolute highest you can fire the supermissle, using RAM address 7E0B78 is 96, that is excatly below the block that is in front of the gate, at 97, it is considered to hit that block, which would mean that from that point, you would need to get it through both blocks.
2) I found that by delaying the spark by so many frames, you can actually manipulate where the super missle explodes, beyond the gate.
3) Starting from the wall (X pos. 437), you need to have a momentum of 1.24576 to have the super missle pass completely through the gate from X pos. 442.0.
With this knowledge, I was able to have the super missle at 96, and was able to have the explosion right in the dead center underneath the switch.
I was also able to have the super missle perform a "glitched fake" explosion and have it continuing, which is what seemed to happen in the video.
Either way, I do not see it being possible to have the super missle successfully hit the trigger from underneath, which means, assuming the video is real, he somehow managed to get the super missle through both blocks. :S
I messed up the other SMV where the super performed a faked-glitch explosion, but it looks almost excatly like the video, where it explodes a little past the gate.
GateAttempt1
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Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
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I find it a little odd how the video is compiled with a bunch of useless/well known tricks, and then one of the biggest sequence breaks in TASing. This one surpasses even the Torizo Skip in technicality, yet the video also boasts wall jumping with monkeys. Does anyone else find this a little questionable?
I find it a little odd how the video is compiled with a bunch of useless/well known tricks, and then one of the biggest sequence breaks in TASing. This one surpasses even the Torizo Skip in technicality, yet the video also boasts wall jumping with monkeys. Does anyone else find this a little questionable?
Very, was my first thought.
Anyways, me and Taco are ready to deem it a fake for the following reasons:
Firstly, the statement Golfer just posted.
Secondly, numbers generally do not lie, and the logged tests completely back it up.
The only factor I see here is some unknown ability/effect of the fake explosion of a super missle.
Please remember this is our opinion, so don't be discouraged to try yourself.. Cough..Cp..cough.
Uhm.. Yeah, going to upload pics in just a sec.
Edit: And now, ladies, gentlemen, and fags, it is now time for some beautiful artwork by none other than the might of Taco+Spoofer.
Click to Enlarge.
First piece: Spoofer's Frontal Assault
Second piece:
Taco's Blind Rage
Even with the combined forces of Taco and Spoofer, the gate remains Godlike:
Galick Gun Go!
I think this gate might be a Super Sayian 6 or some bullshit.
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.
Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
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Posts: 1057
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It does seem highly suspect. A lot of the tricks look like they were done without frame advance. It makes it hard to believe that this one trick, which requires an absurd amount of variables to be spot on, would be possible by the same player. By the same token, the person would have to reasonably skilled video editor or found some magical cheat code, if it was fake. It obvious that there are cheats/mods being used in in almost every clip. Take a look at how many power bombs samus has, for example.
I still am not entirely convinced that it is fake though. Unfortunately without an SMV, it would be almost impossible to reproduce the exact conditions shown in the clip. When factoring the screen position and samus' position to the subpixel level, the amount of combinations is mind boggling.
I still am not entirely convinced that it is fake though. Unfortunately without an SMV, it would be almost impossible to reproduce the exact conditions shown in the clip. When factoring the screen position and samus' position to the subpixel level, the amount of combinations is mind boggling.
Hero hero hero... don't be so noob!
Super missles (and projectiles in genral I belive), when fired, are rounded to the nearest whole pixel. Vertically, it isn't a problem, as far as we know. We didn't find anything on projectile subpixels on Kej's RAM map.
Horizontally, there are very few places where the super can be fired to successfully pass the gate. Subpixels play a small role here and also won't be too much trouble.
Where it gets tricky is the screen position. Luckily, the only thing that should matter is the horizontal pixel/subp of it. That is what will fuck you against your will.
Prove me wrong. Doh :(
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Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
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hmmmm....
Not sure I agree with you Spoofer... Did you consider that Samus' shinespark is movable on the subpixel level? The timing of the spark itself could play a huge role. Samus spark position ( x ) screen position ( + ) firing location ( = ) many possible combination's
:D
Not sure I agree with you Spoofer... Did you consider that Samus' shinespark is movable on the subpixel level? The timing of the spark itself could play a huge role. Samus spark position ( x ) screen position ( + ) firing location ( = ) many possible combination's
I did not put together Samus's spark in combo with screen position. This is the part where I shut my mouth. Doh.
I still defend the firing positions to be very limited, and therefor, greatly decreases the spark timing + screen position.
DAMIT I'm so hyped up about this gate.. where's Saturn, Kej, and Cpadolf. Fuckers mia.
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.
Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
My SM-RBO
Current Project(s):
1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!
I envision Saturn is reading these posts like this:
Heyyy now HEYyyy now!
Despite past arguments involving Saturn, I gotta point out that he hasn't said a word. Besides he's insanely skilled with video editing, and I would take his word in a heartbeat (despite my own tests) if he claimed that video to be fake with valid reason.
I am curious about what he has to say with mine and Taco's tests.
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.
Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
My SM-RBO
Current Project(s):
1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!
Oh, I'm just kidding, I have a lot of respect for Saturn and his knowledge of SM.
It's just funny how many times he's revealed he already knew about X trick all along.
Yes, I think it's a fake once again.
Your smv- and picture-demonstrations, Spoofer, all had the Supers vertical postion being slightly below the switch when it explodes, and as long as this is the case, there is technically no way to hit it, regardless of how close it looks visually. The explosion simply comes from the single gate block that is below the switch.
And as mentioned before, all that screen scrolling stuff with the shinespark has zero influence on the Super's, nor the gate block's behaviour. The Super is either there and registers a collision regardless of the screen's position, or gets offscreen and disappears.
As for how he did the trick, probably by just using a cheat code to speed the Super up so much that it actually went through the upper 2 blocks that are before the switch. No video editing required that way, while making it look more legit in the same time.
I'm also pretty hyped up about the gate. I, for one, hope the video is legit, because it'd open up some really interesting route possibilities. I might even be tempted to start running myself.
Hopefully the video will be further dissected, and we can get some more opinions on the matter from users like Cpadolf, Kej, and the others. Not to discredit those who've already done testing on it.
I guess I'll test this some time, but I'm pretty sure it is fake. Wouldn't you just have to find what RAM address has the information about whether the gate is open or not, and then change it manually on the same frame that the super explodes in order to fame it? Doesn't sound too hard. Added to that, all logic and numbers says that it should not be possible to open the gate backwards in this way.
There has to be an SMV floating around for it. Maybe we should get someone who can translate to scope out the site and see who's behind the video.
Go get the 1 TASer... What's his face.. Uhh.. Terimakishash or something.
Me and Taco have decided to find the numbers out once and for all. We made a hack, gave ourselves supers, SB, hi jump, tanks, etc. Enough room to reach max speed and jumping room before the green gate with the block in tact.
Were going for the minimum speed and plan on playing with it. Absolute genius.
Edit: You can play the SMV in the original rom just fine.
Taco says:
I think we can get 2.2 something speed in normal SM in the gate area, I don't see how we can get it higher... This is where we're forced to think outside the box.
Taco says:
here's the thing, you need to be moving 7 pixels per frame to open the gate like that. my speed and momentum combined in that smv is 7 pixels a frame, the only way it can happen.
Taco says:
so it's not only speed we want to raise, boosts to momentum would help too. I don't see how we could do that, just throwing it out there in case you have an idea.
Minimal speed needed: 5.40960 with a dash of momentum.
Keep in mind this was the lowest we could get after about 20 minutes of testing it. :S
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/502444106/gate%20opened.smv
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.
Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
My SM-RBO
Current Project(s):
1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!
Oh well this is interesting.
My first thought would be to break the movie into frames and reconstruct it exactly with tool-assistance, then compare the results. Someone want to work on this?
My second thought is that off-screen projectiles are somehow failing to hit, and scrolling the screen triggers the hit somehow... but I'm almost sure this isn't the case. The scrolling shouldn't even be able to outspeed the super missile after it's passed half a screen anyways. I guess I can recheck the code.
What's actually bugging me most is the way the explosion stops far past the block though. This isn't a normal case of a super missile going through the wall. The (buggy) collision detection doesn't stop the explosion like that, it does bizarre stuff like in Spoofer's first picture of explosion+missile.
From what I know this shouldn't be possible (my gut is saying the video isn't legit), but I hate to write it off unless there's something particular in the video that I can comfortably label as impossible.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
Oh well this is interesting.
What's actually bugging me most is the way the explosion stops far past the block though. This isn't a normal case of a super missile going through the wall. The (buggy) collision detection doesn't stop the explosion like that, it does bizarre stuff like in Spoofer's first picture of explosion+missile.
Yes, incase you missed it, I was able to manipulate where the explosion happens past the gate by abusing screen scrolling. Would love an explanation on that :D
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.
Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
My SM-RBO
Current Project(s):
1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!
I am unsure if this will be any help, but I was watching hack playthrough videos on nico and came across one that has right-facing green gate in the same area, but with an ample amount of space before it. Given that this is a full playthrough, I find it unlikely that this one part would be faked, but since it is part of a hack and the amount of acceleration room is vastly different, I also do not know if it will be of any use. The hack in question is Super Metroid Precision. Jump to around 11:20 to see it.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm4790307
Alternate: http://blog-imgs-27.fc2.com/t/o/k/tokkablog/play.html?id=sm4790307
I have played this hack and done the same thing (got me permastuck in maridia...), it's nothing special. Because of the extra distance you and the missile have to accelerate, as well as there not being an additional block in your way when shooting at the gate, it's not even very hard to do.
Yes, incase you missed it, I was able to manipulate where the explosion happens past the gate by abusing screen scrolling. Would love an explanation on that :D
Hmm.
edit3: The super missile is composed of two parts, one which lags behind the other to try to fix collision detection when the super missile goes too fast. The front half will drag the back half behind it still though, causing the explosion to follow the super missile even though it's supposed to stop. The front half also goes out of bounds before the back half, and so disappears and leaves the back half barely in-bounds.
I thought the code in the game would delete all the super missiles immediately if one went off screen, thus deleting the explosions too. But I was slightly mistaken: when a super missile explodes, it changes projectile type and isn't recognized as a super missile anymore.
I poked around a bit in other stuff too, I don't see anything that would allow a super missile to pass that far. The fact the explosion isn't even on the gate suggests that the front half of the super missile did not even hit the gate, only the slower back half of the super missile hit the gate. The slower back half can NOT pass through a block either, unless it is carried through it entirely by the front half. Even assuming ludicrous speeds, the back half hitting the gate is impossible since the back half is limited to A pixels per frame. Either both halves would pass the gate without hitting it (requiring a speed of 3B00), or the front half would hit the gate and delete the back half before it could do anything (speed of 2100).
also I looked a bit more carefully at the movie and the super missile clearly goes below the block. Why hasn't this been noticed yet?
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 401
Location: Japan, Nagoya
Hi, I'm not much familiar with SM, but I can tell something about the SM Tricks video a little, since the performer (he posted the video as "echo-tyokotan") has written the info about the gate trick and some resources, in certain 2ch thread*.
According to him, some time ago, he was following a gate attempt video by hero of the day, and he finally succeeded in performing the trick by chance (with 3000+ rerecords or so, he says that was so hard). Later, he remade the movie and uploaded it to Nicovideo. That's the video you guys have watched.
The sad story is, after he encoded the video, he lost the SMV due to tas-movie-editor's mess. So he cannot prove how the trick is achieved for now. Currently, he and some anonymous guys in 2ch are trying to reproduce the glitch, but no one has made it yet.
As I said above, the SMV was lost by accident, so it cannot be uploaded. Instead, he has uploaded non-compressed (and apparently 60fps) video. Which might help you a little, might not, anyway all I can is introduce the video here:
(all uploads are mirrored by me. 2ch-guys: if you don't like the mirror upload (i.e. edit/remove request, or any other things), just tell me that):
Original non-compressed AVI (3.67 MB 7z, but it becomes 22X MB after expand; contributed by the author.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?ggidmetwimz
x264 lossless AVI (7.71 MB, compressed by me)
http://www.mediafire.com/?ltzmgdtj2zr
Some screenshots ripped from the video (5.08 MB, contributed an anonymous guy)
http://www.mediafire.com/?htnwrrtoyty
FYI: #690 (echo-tyokotan) wrote:
シャイン+スクロールの組み合わせで
スパミをブロックに当てて数マスずらす方法をとった
hero of the day氏の方法では裏開けは無理
論理的には
当たった壁が数マス横にずれて表示されているだけで
当たった場所は１マスめのブロックにすぎない
ポイントは
降りたシャッターの先に貫通させて
緑ゲートのオブジェクトのどこかに当てる？（たぶんオブジェクト下の接触部分）
このとき、スパミ爆発演出は数マス横にずれているが、
当たった場所はオブジェクトのハズ
Will the new gate trick bring something interesting in SM TAS by the way? I'm looking forward to it (o＞ヮ＜)o
Edit: Heh, I posted these explanations without seeing any above posts (ex. many of "fake" doubts) at all :P . At least, the player believes he did it without any cheats (more precisely, memory hacking). I wish he will reproduce the glitch and post its SMV in near future.
