Yeah I was just working on that. It turned out decently. I'm assuming there's some room for improvement though.
EssEmVee
Thats pretty Awesome. Btw, Cp, i noticed Samus doesn't catch the missile for it to hit the hopper in time, unfortunatelly, but, it seems you have enough time for, instead of shooting the Super while falling, shoot first a missile and then a super on him, given that the cooldown between one missile and one super is much smaller than one super and one missile. See if it works...
Btw, Forensics, thanks for the microstorage link.
Edit: Btw, regarding that Screw Attack through the kagos, here is a realtime demonstration.
Edit 2: The strategy to kill the hopper i posted above failed miserably, but this worked.
Edit 3: Some time ago, me and Behemoth found a trick for WS that allowed us to save some seconds in the Spiked Moving Platforms going for the Energy Tank. I've been thinking and maybe something could be done keep the speed gained in the two previous room to cross that Spiked Moving Platforms in full speed. This is the best i could do. Maybe you guys find a way to make it work. Maybe a jump through the door while it's openning or something like that... The way we used on PAL seems not to work due to difference in physics, but it would take 100 health damage by that moving platform to send Samus to the end of the room anyway.
Regarding Kraid's room, isn't it possible, when leaving it, to run and use the door for that CWJ in a way that in the next room you can morph in mid air and reach the middle pipe for a bounce, landing close to the door?
Neat strategy for the hoppers. It might be possible to get both drops in that room now.
Door-CWJ (or inverse-walljump overall) only works when Samus is facing to the right, so it unfortunately wouldn't work to do it on kraids door.
EDIT: Ok, so all in all the whole Pink Brinstar switch around saved about 3 seconds. It's 4 seconds faster than the old run, but around 1 second of that came from improving the reverse gate room.
I really like how this looks too. It's a much smoother route, and removes a couple of ugly looking parts.
Smv
Neat strategy for the hoppers. It might be possible to get both drops in that room now.
Thanks, dude!
Cpadolf wrote:
Door-CWJ (or inverse-walljump overall) only works when Samus is facing to the right, so it unfortunately wouldn't work to do it on kraids door.
Pitty!
Cpadolf wrote:
Ok, so all in all the whole Pink Brinstar switch around saved about 3 seconds. It's 4 seconds faster than the old run, but around 1 second of that came from improving the reverse gate room.
Awesome!
Cpadolf wrote:
I really like how this looks too. It's a much smoother route, and removes a couple of ugly looking parts.
I know what you mean, now we have some action instead of just a morphball rolling. We have some Samus Walljumping, Running, Damage Boosting, Killing while falling and then a sweet CWJ in the door. It's non stop action.
Edit 3: Some time ago, me and Behemoth found a trick for WS that allowed us to save some seconds in the Spiked Moving Platforms going for the Energy Tank. I've been thinking and maybe something could be done keep the speed gained in the two previous room to cross that Spiked Moving Platforms in full speed. This is the best i could do. Maybe you guys find a way to make it work. Maybe a jump through the door while it's openning or something like that... The way we used on PAL seems not to work due to difference in physics, but it would take 100 health damage by that moving platform to send Samus to the end of the room anyway.
I feel like an idiot here! I forgot that Samus was wearing the Gravity Suit. Anyway, the point is still valid, but i think it will not work unfortunatelly, at least not the way i planned. Here is a better example of what i was talking about. It seems the spiked platform could be used to do that back and forth trick to keep the speed of Samus and maybe go further. The problem about this strategy, even if it works, is that you loose 100 health points and need the Wave Beam (maybe not???) to perform.
That new route in pink brinstar is awesome, it's got such a buttery smooth feel to it. I'm glad to see you guy's back in action, throwing ideas around for improvements and all. Keep up the good work!
My user name is rather long, feel free to call me by htwt or tape.
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Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Edit 3: Some time ago, me and Behemoth found a trick for WS that allowed us to save some seconds in the Spiked Moving Platforms going for the Energy Tank. I've been thinking and maybe something could be done keep the speed gained in the two previous room to cross that Spiked Moving Platforms in full speed. This is the best i could do. Maybe you guys find a way to make it work. Maybe a jump through the door while it's openning or something like that... The way we used on PAL seems not to work due to difference in physics, but it would take 100 health damage by that moving platform to send Samus to the end of the room anyway.
I feel like an idiot here! I forgot that Samus was wearing the Gravity Suit. Anyway, the point is still valid, but i think it will not work unfortunatelly, at least not the way i planned. Here is a better example of what i was talking about. It seems the spiked platform could be used to do that back and forth trick to keep the speed of Samus and maybe go further. The problem about this strategy, even if it works, is that you loose 100 health points and need the Wave Beam (maybe not???) to perform.
I've seen my brother make it all the way across or almost all the way across after short charging for echos. Just like Behemoth he Bounce Balled before the door. It was just too hard for console and it took way too much energy. He made an .smv of it but, I'm not sure if he kept it.
Anyway speaking of that area. Can you Missile the Enemy and hit the door with a Spazer Shot right after, then jump out the water and CWJ of the door into the Reverse Boost?
Anyway speaking of that area. Can you Missile the Enemy and hit the door with a Spazer Shot right after, then jump out the water and CWJ of the door into the Reverse Boost?
Interesting idea, i just don't know if there is a speed limit for this trick or if Samus would catch the door in time to get the Reverse CWJ animation. But if it works it would be really cool.
Edit: Managed to get to the end of the room, but this strat is probably not worth due to health issues. Here is the best i could do but it could probably be faster.
Edit 2: If it was possible to use the speed preservation trick here it could be interesting, though there would be not much room for running.
Edit 3: I managed to make it this time, landing on the last platform. From there you just have to do as Cpadolf did in his 100% run, but as i said before it wastes too much health, also it could be slower anyway. Take a look here.
Edit 3: I managed to make it this time, landing on the last platform. From there you just have to do as Cpadolf did in his 100% run, but as i said before it wastes too much health, also it could be slower anyway. Take a look here.
I did some tests and it seems to be slower. This is the best I could get strategy wise after some short testing. I tried to do it without bluesuit, which would save some time, but didn't manage to preserve speed all the way without it as I can't do the second damage boost. It was about 15 frames slower.
Also, tested hero's idea of delaying the first R-tank and those missiles until later. Using this method, it looks like it's 2 seconds slower. So unless there's some radically better way of doing it, it seems like a no go.
I did some tests and it seems to be slower. This is the best I could get strategy wise after some short testing. I tried to do it without bluesuit, which would save some time, but didn't manage to preserve speed all the way without it as I can't do the second damage boost. It was about 15 frames slower.
Oh man, that was very cool and it's a shame that it doesn't save time. In the PAL version it's possible to get a bounce in the very ledge of the door, which makes samus touch the spiked platform and get a damage that makes her go to the last platform and that in full speed without delaying for the blue suit. Unfortunatelly, when trying to bounce in the very ledge of the door, Samus just loose all speed for some reason and doesn't bounce. Thanks for testing it!
Cpadolf wrote:
Also, tested hero's idea of delaying the first R-tank and those missiles until later. Using this method, it looks like it's 2 seconds slower. So unless there's some radically better way of doing it, it seems like a no go.
Another bad news... :-(
Btw, regarding that early PB to open the Yellow door leading to blue Brinstar, is it really possible to open it without delaying Samus in her way for that missile pack in the pipe? Is it possible to know how many frames it would save?
Edit: I noticed there was something like a bounce in the door in your First Super Missile room test... would it be possible to bounce like that in the door for the WS strategy?
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 444
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Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Oh man, that was very cool and it's a shame that it doesn't save time. In the PAL version it's possible to get a bounce in the very ledge of the door, which makes samus touch the spiked platform and get a damage that makes her go to the last platform and that in full speed without delaying for the blue suit. Unfortunatelly, when trying to bounce in the very ledge of the door, Samus just loose all speed for some reason and doesn't bounce. Thanks for testing it!
My brother has done something like that before. I'm pretty sure he did it without a blue suit as well but, I could be wrong. It would probably take too much damage though.
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Edit: I noticed there was something like a bounce in the door in your First Super Missile room test... would it be possible to bounce like that in the door for the WS strategy?
That's actually a very interesting idea!!!! That reminds me of the invisible bridge, I wonder what would happen?
Also thanks for the .smv's Cpadolf!!!! Its unfortunate that those ideas proved slower. Hopefully someone will think of an idea to make them faster.
That's actually a very interesting idea!!!! That reminds me of the invisible bridge, I wonder what would happen?.
Do you mean the trick to get a mock ball/bounce off a ledge by jumping at the exact time and landing the mock ball on the correct part of the ledge, just like at the invisible bridge to grab the two missiles in blue brinstar.
If not I still wonder how many other places this trick could be used to save some frames.
Oh man, that was very cool and it's a shame that it doesn't save time. In the PAL version it's possible to get a bounce in the very ledge of the door, which makes samus touch the spiked platform and get a damage that makes her go to the last platform and that in full speed without delaying for the blue suit. Unfortunatelly, when trying to bounce in the very ledge of the door, Samus just loose all speed for some reason and doesn't bounce. Thanks for testing it!
You need to reach a certain falling speed for there to be a proper bounce, otherwise you'll just lose all your speed. And that's not possible from the small height in that room. IIRC the bounce mechanic acts slightly different in PAL so it's easier to do.
And that wasn't a bounce I did in the door in GB. What happens there is a quirk of how the game works. When Samus is running or rolling on the ground, she actually has a downward speed that is 1px/frame greater than her forward speed. This is so she can run properly on slopes (otherwise she'd constantly fall of in a manner similar to when you armpump on a slope). Anyway. This speed will be maintained during an animation (like morphing), so if you have a high speed and morph just before running of ledge, this will propel you quickly downwards for the duration of the morphing animation. Same goes for turning around just before running of a ledge. Demonstrated here more clearly. Also, more interesting application of the quirk here (was used in the any% realtime TAS).
Fun fact: If you make a hack where Samus can move on the ground at 15px/frame, she can fall straight through the floor.
About the PB door. You can open it early without any significant loss in time, and it would save 20+ frames when going through the door later.
Fun fact: If you make a hack where Samus can move on the ground at 15px/frame, she can fall straight through the floor.
Man, i've always wanted a trick to make Samus fall through one block floor to be found, So the Statue in WS could be skipped.
Wtf? I really thought the PB would save more frames. Wouldn't the strategy change for, instead of charging the shinespark like you did, just run through the door and get more run up in the Hoppers room for a faster blue ball?
Anyway, thank you very much for the explanation!
Wtf? I really thought the PB would save more frames. Wouldn't the strategy change for, instead of charging the shinespark like you did, just run through the door and get more run up in the Hoppers room for a faster blue ball?
Yeah it probably saves a bit more to do it that way, I just meant that it saves 20+ frames at the least, because that's about how long I had to wait at the door.
You can walljump from the first Kago to keep the speed through the entire room:
Pie
Now just to optimize the starting speed and it should be good to go.
I also found a slightly different strategy for the hoppers just before the Pink Brinstar E-tank:
More Pie
Joined: 11/26/2010
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Kriole wrote:
You can walljump from the first Kago to keep the speed through the entire room:
Pie
Now just to optimize the starting speed and it should be good to go.
Holy Shit!!!! If more cool stuff like that is found it might justify early Wave Beam.
Wow, very nice strategy for the WS room. You can never have enough CWJ's and forward damageboosts in a run :P
Is there any inherent advantage for the thing you did against the hoppers? Because I checked and we both got to the top on the same frame.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
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Can the pink hopper room benefit from the wave beam? It's funny to think that using a super missile is actually faster than opening the gate the intended way.
With that improvement in WS, there seems to be a pretty nice list of areas that would benefit from the wave beam now. I will try to work up a list of all of them.
Kriole:
Ok, now I see. Yeah that looks good.
That WS strat seems to be around 15 frames faster than in the 100% run. Armpumping all the way should be the fastest as the extra speed doesn't do anything in the spikeroom, due to the last platform slowing you down. Unless there's a better method than to damageboost of the spikes at the end.
Smv
Hero:
I don't think the wavebeam helps there, no. Killing the hoppers and opening the door first, and then opening the gate after jumping up to it is slower IIRC, and if you want to open it early you still have to make a high jump to get it to connect. It might make for a marginally faster exit though as you don't have to unspin to open the door on your way down.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Cpadolf wrote:
Kriole:
Ok, now I see. Yeah that looks good.
That WS strat seems to be around 15 frames faster than in the 100% run. Armpumping all the way should be the fastest as the extra speed doesn't do anything in the spikeroom, due to the last platform slowing you down. Unless there's a better method than to damageboost of the spikes at the end.
Smv
Hero:
I don't think the wavebeam helps there, no. Killing the hoppers and opening the door first, and then opening the gate after jumping up to it is slower IIRC, and if you want to open it early you still have to make a high jump to get it to connect. It might make for a marginally faster exit though as you don't have to unspin to open the door on your way down.
I see, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.
Also, in regards to the green brinstar room rtank entry:
It is possible to go into morphball form on the door itself (instead of on the platform). This lets the morphball fly into the little pipe under the chozo at full speed. Though it is a bounce, so a bluesuit cannot be sustained while under there. The key to this room is finding the right speed to both open the door with a super missile and have it open completely, so that a smooth mockball can be achieved. Jumping early on the bridge lets you fire the super missile sooner. I have gotten this to within 1 frame of working, so it might very well be possible. I just suck at optimizing this type of stuff :P
It might be possible, I'm not sure, but it would save less than 1 second even if you could do it with almost full speed, so it would still be slower to save those pickups for later. Also, without those extra missiles you'd lose some time in other places too.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
yeah good point CP. it's a shame it won't be useful :/
another improvement to the 100% run:
After killing draygon, you place a regular bomb near the space jump door before it starts flashing. Have the bomb detonate right when the door begins to flash. In the meantime, have samus grapple onto the electric spark and then use the grapple momentum to fly into the space jump room at sick speed. This is a great workaround, because normally you cannot press the B button to otherwise build speed.
Also, does anyone think a draygon 1 round is possible? I wonder if the grapple was used to freeze him just enough times, that you could unload PB combos and supers into him and then still get the shinespark off.
