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Posted: 1/9/2012 5:09 AM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
It's the room with the lightbugs and e-tank, I think.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 1/9/2012 5:11 AM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
Btw, did anyone tested the damage boost in Draygon's room? Is it slower?
Posted: 1/9/2012 5:34 AM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
I tried it out. Grapple can be pretty weird to optimize in some situations so I haven't manage to get a perfect swing, but it should probably be possible to do without losing any time.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 1/9/2012 5:49 AM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
Didn''t understand... what do you mean? Are you trying too get a damage using the grapple instead of jumping? Wouldn't it be faster jumping, as you have to shoot the Eletric stuff with a Super and to make this you have to pass the ledge, so the jump just to break it will be near that eletric stuff?
Posted: 1/9/2012 6:00 AM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
Oh, I didn't think you meant the one on the way out. I haven't tested that one.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 1/9/2012 6:52 AM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
Regarding that new route i suggested, going straight down to X-Ray and Maridia after WS, i did some calculations and it can't be faster. If my calculations are correct, If cpadolf, in his run, have been taken that route, but not counting the optimizations using the new equipments, the run would have been around 20 seconds slower. I don't think the new equipments would save that much only in the Brinstar clean up. Edit: Btw, nice idea abou the Wallcrawler stuff, hero. If it works, you could get a damage that sends you to the bottom of the area, where there is a red pirate. Also, very nice Pink Brinstar smv, cpadolf! Edit 2: Cp, it's possible to activate the gate shooting up very close to the wall, so what about shooting up before walljumping, or shoot up earlier after a walljump? Edit 3: This idea was posted by Quietus on m2k2 for realtime runners some time ago, and it could be tested to see if it saves any frame, given that health management won't be a problem in WS, it could be useful. After collecting the Missile pack in the far left of the ship (Crateria area, the Missile below a Super Missile block and right above the door to WS lake), go up as usuall, but before entering the ball hole, charge a shinespark, then enter the hole, and shinespark right after leaving the small passage, going over the small lakes in the next room. I did a small test and the spark fades right when Samus unmorph, but it was not optimized, mainly the bomb to push Samus out of the hole, so i'd say it's possible even if it's not worth. Problem is you loose the oportunity to collect some drops for the Brinstar clean up, but judging the recent strategies and discoveries, it might not be hard to refill some drops later. Also, regarding the door you're going through with the shinespark, it's possible to open it from above it shooting with the wave beam as shown in this smv. Btw, why the f*ck there's a noise of the door opening when i shoot it again, if it's already openned??? Edit 4: It might be just equally fast anyway, but, when going for the last Reserve Tank in Northwest of bubble room, it's possible to jump a little bit over the cacti, shoot a Super in the door and damage boost on the cacti to land in the very ledge close to the door. Problem is you loose a Super drop, but it might be not that bad as you still have some rooms left to try and get other drops anyway. Also, if it's possible to open the green door without delaying Samus when you land in the ledge instead of shooting the super over the cacti, it could be faster because you could turn Samus back to the door with a spin jump before the damage boost instead of waiting for the turn around animation. Edit 5: Oh man, that idea hero posted about getting a Shinespark from Ridley should be tested to see if it really works or not. If Ridley really give Samus a free shinespark, i have an interesting idea. Edit 6: Btw, hero, that wallcrawler strat works very nicely! Only problem is it seems you have to unmorph to make him catch Samus, unless there's a way to delay samus in the small passage a little bit till the wallcrawler catch her. Anyway, i did just a test to see if it would work or not and it worked. Take a look: Not Optimized smv
Posted: 1/9/2012 3:19 PM
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R1_4n6
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Edit 5: Oh man, that idea hero posted about getting a Shinespark from Ridley should be tested to see if it really works or not. If Ridley really give Samus a free shinespark, i have an interesting idea.
I have an interesting idea too, I wonder if its the same. I was thinking what would a Shine Spark do to Ridley? If it damages him a lot you could just Crystal Flash early and let Ridley grab you get a Blue Suit (if its possible) and Shine Spark him to death. Also nice .smv Cpadolf. I didn't even think about Power Bombing them to open the door. So even more add to the list of where Wave will save time.
My name is Forensics.
Posted: 1/9/2012 4:36 PM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
Shinesparking Ridley does nothing, and you don't seem to get a free shinespark if you get grabbed by him during a CF.
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Edit 2: Cp, it's possible to activate the gate shooting up very close to the wall, so what about shooting up before walljumping, or shoot up earlier after a walljump?
It is possible, but positioning needs to be very precise for it to work, and I've not found a convenient/usable spot for it yet. WS Shinespark can probably save time, if you have the energy for it. EDIT: Finally found a spot that works. Because of how you have to set it up it's not that much faster, but it's something at least. It doesn't look like there's a lower position that will work. The only lower one I found was all the way down at the spikes, but you have to blow the blocks up with a bomb first to reach them, or charge up a bluesuit, but both of those are definitely slower. Smv
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 1/9/2012 7:55 PM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
Cpadolf wrote:
Shinesparking Ridley does nothing, and you don't seem to get a free shinespark if you get grabbed by him during a CF.
That's bad news. Anyway, i found that my idea would probably be unfeasible.
Cpadolf wrote:
WS Shinespark can probably save time, if you have the energy for it.
Depending on how far are the enemies the shinespark will kill, maybe you can get some drops with a turn around and the grapple.
Cpadolf wrote:
Finally found a spot that works. Because of how you have to set it up it's not that much faster, but it's something at least. It doesn't look like there's a lower position that will work. The only lower one I found was all the way down at the spikes, but you have to blow the blocks up with a bomb first to reach them, or charge up a bluesuit, but both of those are definitely slower. Smv
That's really nice. Also, it's kinda strange that i thought using this strat would be 10 frames faster and you get to the top 10 frames faster. Edit: In the room with lighter bugs and the Energy Tank in LN, try this and see if it's faster: Make Samus go a little bit to the right after passing the "Claws of Ridley" using an unmorph mommentum or a walljump in the middle claw, in a way that you can damage boost from the below lighter and land in the Energy Tank Platform, then get the Energy Tank with a Spin jump to turn Samus vulnerable again and damage boost from the ligher straight to the platform in the left, then jump up to the claws. Edit 2: It's a shame that the Power Bomb takes so many frames to destroy the blocks leading to the pre-X-Ray room. Also, i wonder if it wouldn't be faster, doing this instead of after the Brinstar Clean up... it seems slower by visual.
Posted: 1/10/2012 12:56 PM
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R1_4n6
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
I don't understand why you think its slow because you have to wait for those blocks to be destroyed no matter what. Also you won't have Screw Attack at the time because in a new 100% run you would go early X-Ray. Plus the Speed Preservation Technique (Speed Keeping) will be used to invoke a Shine Spark. Quick question though it might sound stupid. Do you have to Power Bomb the door earlier and the Power Bomb the blocks on the way back? Because I tried to get the door open without destroying the blocks, but I couldn't find a spot. It was either one or the other. I didn't test it very well, but I figured I should ask anyway.
My name is Forensics.
Posted: 1/10/2012 2:28 PM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
There is enough time to place the bomb at the blocks, unmorph, run to the corner, start charging the shinespark and get past the destructible floor before the powerbomb blast gets there. So that's not a problem.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 1/10/2012 4:06 PM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
I don't understand why you think its slow because you have to wait for those blocks to be destroyed no matter what. Also you won't have Screw Attack at the time because in a new 100% run you would go early X-Ray. Plus the Speed Preservation Technique (Speed Keeping) will be used to invoke a Shine Spark.
I think there's a missunderstanding. What i said it was slower was the smv i posted, cause even though you have to wait for the PB to clean the way, the time lost jumping up to charge the shinespark and then jumping down again takes too much time (i think around 6 seconds just for the trip up and down, not counting the time to charge the shinespark.
Posted: 1/10/2012 4:55 PM
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R1_4n6
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
I think there's a missunderstanding. What i said it was slower was the smv i posted, cause even though you have to wait for the PB to clean the way, the time lost jumping up to charge the shinespark and then jumping down again takes too much time (i think around 6 seconds just for the trip up and down, not counting the time to charge the shinespark.
Yea I'm not really sure where you where going with that.
Cpadolf wrote:
There is enough time to place the bomb at the blocks, unmorph, run to the corner, start charging the shinespark and get past the destructible floor before the powerbomb blast gets there. So that's not a problem.
Ah, that makes a lot of sense now thanks. I have an idea actually on what Reeve posted before. Instead of Blue Balling through the blocks in Red Brinstar after the Noob Bridge. Can you Super Short Charge from the edge of that door and get a charge and break the blocks at the same time like the Energy Tank room in Crateria above the ship and if its possible would it be faster?
My name is Forensics.
Posted: 1/10/2012 9:23 PM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
Yea I'm not really sure where you where going with that.
I was just curious, cause i thought there was no way to shinespark through that room without using hero's idea.
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
I have an idea actually on what Reeve posted before. Instead of Blue Balling through the blocks in Red Brinstar after the Noob Bridge. Can you Super Short Charge from the edge of that door and get a charge and break the blocks at the same time like the Energy Tank room in Crateria above the ship and if its possible would it be faster?
Do you mean to charge the mentioned shinespark, go down, land the PB and wait for the block to be destroyed while Samus is still shinning and then go through the door without the need of charging the shinespark with the speed keeping trick? If so, it's not possible at all. As i said, it takes almost 3 seconds just to fall and after placing the PB it still takes around two seconds to break the blocks or more, so once you reacch the bottom, you'll have less then one second to release the shinespark and still have to wait for the PB to be activated for more than two seconds, so the charged shinespark will fade away unfortunatelly.
Posted: 1/10/2012 9:39 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
In retrospect, my idea to use the pb combo in the ws in order to shorten the shinespark cool-down, will not work. It takes 120 frames to charge the combo, and opening the door to the chozo statue room will require that a weapon be shot. The time spent charging a shinespark from that point on is way less than 120 frames. So it will not be possible to do a pb combo and a shinespark at the same time without losing massive time. So we have even less now to justify getting the charge beam early. I am going to check if wrap around shots are possible with a non-charged wave/spazer shot.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 1/10/2012 9:51 PM
(Edited: 1/10/2012 10:47 PM)
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R1_4n6
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Spazer/Wave Wrap Around Glitches are definitely possible in places without charge beam but, I'm not sure where they could be useful. Also I'm sure you already knew that shots can be Wrapped Around with downward angled shots as well. The only use for this was on console. There is one you can do for TAS later in the run but, its more for show. You can get Crocomire's with a Downward Angle shot as well but, I'm not sure if you can do it without charge beam. I've done it with plasma beam before but, I'm not sure if I was charged or not. I'm not sure if Charge Beam would save any time in a TAS but, it can definitely save ammo. Sure in some places it might save time but, it still probably won't be justified.
My name is Forensics.
Posted: 1/10/2012 10:40 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Is anyone willing to test for wrap around shots with the spazer/wave uncharged? Rooms of interest would be as follows: 1. crocomire room 2. wrecked ship attic 3. crateria landing site (from the top, near where the left door is located) 4. possibly removing the shootable blocks on the left after the gravity statue chozo releases samus Finding these are an absolute pain. It seems that the only way I have found wrap around locations, is by spamming shots into the right hand side of the screen at an angle. If anyone wants to try, please record your attempt in an smv. It does not have to look pretty, but it would give us a definitive answer that these shots are possible.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 1/10/2012 10:58 PM
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R1_4n6
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Early Charge Beam would be cool if the Phantoon Fight proves faster. It would also be nice to see something new against Phantoon for a change. Also would it be faster if you can you charge shot Kraid kind of like in the RBO just without Plasma Beam. Maybe Charge Shot, 2 Missiles and 2 Supers. I'm pretty sure that's the correct amount of damage. Unless you can kill him with one less Missile or something. If so would it be faster? I'm not sure if you guys knew this already or if it can even prove useful but, it would be interesting to see done in a TAS nonetheless. When you Pseudo Screw Attack and Shoot a Frame after (maybe more I'm not entirely sure how many) as your hitting an Enemy it will release a Full Charge Beam Shot. My brother (Sunffit86/Snuffilmz) was the first person who has done it to my knowledge. I've also done it myself a few times on Console as well. I'm not sure if anybody even knew this was possible or not. Because I never heard anyone mention it before. It might actually prove useful in a TAS because of ammo conservation and it can damage multiple powerful enemies like in the attic room and maybe other areas as well.
hero of the day wrote:
Is anyone willing to test for wrap around shots with the spazer/wave uncharged? Rooms of interest would be as follows: 1. crocomire room 2. wrecked ship attic 3. crateria landing site (from the top, near where the left door is located) 4. possibly removing the shootable blocks on the left after the gravity statue chozo releases samus Finding these are an absolute pain. It seems that the only way I have found wrap around locations, is by spamming shots into the right hand side of the screen at an angle. If anyone wants to try, please record your attempt in an smv. It does not have to look pretty, but it would give us a definitive answer that these shots are possible.
1) Not sure on this one. 2) I have tried this many times but, I couldn't even find one with a Charge Shot. Something tells me its possible though. 3) I'm the first to find this for Console but, only with the Charged Plasma/Wave. I couldn't even find a way for Charged Spazer/Wave to work. I don't even think this is possible without Charge Beam anyway. 4) Are you even talking about a Wrap Around Glitch here? If so I'm very confused because why would a Wrap Around Glitch be needed here? I will test some of these for you later hero and see if I have any luck.
My name is Forensics.
Posted: 1/11/2012 12:12 AM
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Behemoth
Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 17
Location: England
Just thought I'd chip in with these wrap arounds. The wrecked ship attic one: Do you mean to open the door on the left from the right hand door location ?. I done this on PAL a few times so there's definitely a "spot" for it somewhere, but I recall the spot being in such a location that it would hinder time. Also PAL and NTSC positions for wrap around shots differ so it might be possible that there is no positions for it to work at all on NTSC in this room, or it might be just harder to find. Good luck ! btw , this game breaking business here is really exciting !!!
Posted: 1/11/2012 12:36 AM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
I think it's possible to save some frames more with that WS Walljump in the Spiked platforms room, take a look at this. The smv is not optimized and i don't land in the right spot in the next room, but anyway, it's just the idea. Also, in the resources page of the site there is this:
Game Resources wrote:
Wrapping beam shots around This generally does not work firing left to open a door on the right, but under extremely specific circumstances it might be possible.
Have anyone ever found a door in the left that can open another one in the right???
Posted: 1/11/2012 12:48 AM
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R1_4n6
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
I've tried Crocomire and the Wrecked Ship Attic room but, I couldn't find any success unfortunately. :( I'm sure they're possible though. I'm not experienced at all with TASing so I was trying in real time. I'm sure there is a way for it to work though. Also I don't have Angle Down so I couldn't try things from a crouching position. Hero have you found a way to hit the Wrecked Ship Attic room with a Charged Shot by any chance? If so could you please post it cause I would love to see that!!!!
My name is Forensics.
Posted: 1/11/2012 1:38 AM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
I think it's possible to save some frames more with that WS Walljump in the Spiked platforms room, take a look at this. The smv is not optimized and i don't land in the right spot in the next room, but anyway, it's just the idea.
Yes that's definitely a few frames faster. Great idea!
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 1/11/2012 2:02 AM
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R1_4n6
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Yea nice .smv Reeve!!! I didn't even see it in your post before it was hiding from me. It looks much more fluid that way and its a few frames faster like Cpadolf said so that's even more of a plus!!!! Also Behemoth where exactly did you get the shot to Wrap Around in the WS Attic room?
My name is Forensics.
Posted: 1/11/2012 3:13 AM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
I've tried Crocomire and the Wrecked Ship Attic room but, I couldn't find any success unfortunately. :( I'm sure they're possible though. I'm not experienced at all with TASing so I was trying in real time. I'm sure there is a way for it to work though. Also I don't have Angle Down so I couldn't try things from a crouching position. Hero have you found a way to hit the Wrecked Ship Attic room with a Charged Shot by any chance? If so could you please post it cause I would love to see that!!!!
No, unfortunately I haven't had any luck yet here either. Though Behemoth said that he has done it on the PAL version, so I am sure there is a sweet spot somewhere in there on the J/U version. I'll keep trying on these too. I will also see if there are any spots that would benefit from a left to right side wrap around shot. In regards to the chozo gravity statue, I wasn't talking about a wrap around shot, but rather just finding a shot that is able to penetrate the staircase from the bottom and take out the first row of shootable blocks.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 1/11/2012 3:38 AM
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R1_4n6
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Yea like you said there should be a sweet spot some where. I would like to know where Behemoth did it on PAL because it could give a general idea of where to do it. Also it not that Wrap Around Glitches are different on PAL because the same ones that he does can also be done on NTSC. Its because of the time it takes to fully charge the Beam is drastically different on the PAL version. So some like my Wrap Around Glitch above the ship he does differently on PAL because of the Beam not fully charged at the time to hit the door consistently. Edit: You must reveal the spot Behemoth so they can break the shit out of this game even more. Also quick question did you open it with a Charge Shot or a normal beam shot? Also hero will that technique that I explained before about the Charge Beam be of any use? Also did you ever get that trick to work in the WS Attic room after the robots? If I remember correctly you said the enemies get in the way. Hopefully Behemoth's Wrap Around can be useful there as well!!!!!
My name is Forensics.
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