Topic by Cpadolf

Posted: 1/19/2012 10:10 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

Damn, forgot about half of those. To be honest I'd rather avoid adding door transitions for small gains ingame, while still optimizing for ingame time on a room to room basis (thus getting a minimum amount of detours and a maximum amount of speed through the rooms). The bad part about that of course is that you don't fully aim for either goal, which is kind of shitty. And it would make early Wave unfeasible which is s shame.

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Posted: 1/19/2012 10:17 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

well if you consider that the 2 from early wave and the 2 from the gold torizo are essentially offset by their in-game/realtime gains, then there is only about 7 transitions that kill realtime. 7 at 3 seconds a piece is only an addition of ~21 realtime seconds, which isn't really that bad.

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Posted: 1/19/2012 10:51 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

I think my main problem is with the Green Brinstar super missile one and the potential lightbugs one, because they really look and feel like detours which is untrue for the rest of them. I guess it's not too bad, although I suspect you might be right that a new run colud then be slower in realtime compared to the old.

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Posted: 1/19/2012 11:06 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
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Location: United States

yeah, I totally agree. The green brinstar missile pack seems really out of place and looks kinda lame. The funny part is that is saves a large amount of in-game time compared to the other ones.

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Posted: 1/19/2012 11:33 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

Yeah, I could almost not believe that it saved any time at all with how it looks. But anyway, I tested and it seems that taking the LN E-tank early is slower ingame as well by a few frames, so that's good at least.

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Posted: 1/19/2012 11:52 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

When i first heard of the possibility of that lightbugs stuff i felt like a very bad detour. And in my mind it would only save a few frames by having more speed but would look ugly as a backtrack. Regarding that alternative route after the mainstreet missile in Maridia, it's up to you guys, but although it saves just a few frames in-game time in exchange of loosing almost three seconds realtime, it adds entertainment value (imo). Regarding that First Super Missile room, i never thought it was faster to reenter the room instead of the strategy used by Cp in his run. Does anyone know how much in-game frames it saves?

Posted: 1/20/2012 12:06 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

I doubt it's possible, but I wonder if there is a way to grab that missile tank without activating the gates?

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Posted: 1/20/2012 12:10 AM

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lxx4xNx6xxl

Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 444
Location: New York, US

Eye Of The Beholder wrote:

When i first heard of the possibility of that lightbugs stuff i felt like a very bad detour. And in my mind it would only save a few frames by having more speed but would look ugly as a backtrack. Regarding that alternative route after the mainstreet missile in Maridia, it's up to you guys, but although it saves just a few frames in-game time in exchange of loosing almost three seconds realtime, it adds entertainment value (imo). Regarding that First Super Missile room, i never thought it was faster to reenter the room instead of the strategy used by Cp in his run. Does anyone know how much in-game frames it saves?

Yea I was surprised myself about the Green Brinstar area. I wonder if it would be faster for console conditions as well?

My name is 4N6/Forensics.

Posted: 1/20/2012 12:20 AM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

hero of the day wrote:

I doubt it's possible, but I wonder if there is a way to grab that missile tank without activating the gates?

I doubt that too. The gates are too sensitive. XD I wonder if there is a way to get as close to the gate as possible, use the quick fall through the crumble blocks, get the Missile and quickly mockball under the gate before it closes. But i don't think there's time enough.

Posted: 1/20/2012 5:11 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
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Location: United States

I tried doing what you suggested, but it seems as though the gate is simply too fast :/ I am not sure if this saves time, but if you place a power bomb in the spike room (right before getting into the gravity statues hands), you can clear the false chozo statue down below early. Couple this with the wave beam, which will allow you to attack the robots earlier and move them into their holes faster, and this may save some time. Laying the power bomb wont cost much time either, since the new strategy in that room is to run across the spike instead of shinesparking.

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Posted: 1/20/2012 6:16 AM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

hero of the day wrote:

I tried doing what you suggested, but it seems as though the gate is simply too fast :/

I took a look and yeah, the gate is too fast unfortunatelly. Also, something i thought was that the gate was activated by the Screen scrolling, so i tried using the moonwalk. And even though the screen doesn't scroll, the gate still closes. It seems it is activated once Samus gets to a certain spot on the screen even though the screen doesn't scroll to show the gate.

hero of the day wrote:

I am not sure if this saves time, but if you place a power bomb in the spike room (right before getting into the gravity statues hands), you can clear the false chozo statue down below early. Couple this with the wave beam, which will allow you to attack the robots earlier and move them into their holes faster, and this may save some time. Laying the power bomb wont cost much time either, since the new strategy in that room is to run across the spike instead of shinesparking.

That's a good find. Hopefully it's possible to hit the robots for them to go into the holes earlier.

Posted: 1/20/2012 1:33 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

Eye Of The Beholder wrote:

Regarding that First Super Missile room, i never thought it was faster to reenter the room instead of the strategy used by Cp in his run. Does anyone know how much in-game frames it saves?

Shockingly enough, it's almost a full second faster. Couldn't find an smv of it so I made one here.

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Posted: 1/20/2012 6:23 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

Cpadolf wrote:

Shockingly enough, it's almost a full second faster. Couldn't find an smv of it so I made one here.

Shockingly indeed. But thinking about that it makes sense. Think about it. You go all the way to the pink door and then come back for the super missile and go all the way to the right again. The way we usually clear that room, getting the Super Missile first is already a big backtrack, it just doesn't seem because you backtrack in the top of the room visiting a different area. Reentering the room is much uglier than the traditional way but it's more eficient. Edit: The only run i remember using this is the late RBO done by hero, kriole and taco, the unfinished one before they found that early blue Brinstar E.T trick. But they didn't get the two missile packs in the back of the chozo statue. Edit 2: Regarding what hero said about the gravity statue room, i managed to make the first robot to go to the hole before getting to the Gravity Statue shooting from the spikes. Problem is i couldn't record it. When i was not recording i got it twice, but then i tried to record and couldn't make it work. Maybe it's because the robots position or something as when i thought about recording i had to reenter the room. I'll keep trying to record at least a sloppy attempt.

Posted: 1/21/2012 5:07 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

Double post for a change. I managed to record the trick. Two smvs, in one i was just trying to find the spot where i could shoot the robot and in the other i kinda tried to see if it was possible to shoot the robot while keeping the speed. Also, i shoot one different robot in each smv just to show that it's possible to shoot both (maybe not in one trip). WS Robot WS Robot 2

Posted: 1/21/2012 8:31 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

Damn, that's really cool. If this could be done well enough it might help to justify taking Charge early. EDIT: It's possible to do both in one trip, though obviously not while keeping your speed. Still, if optimized, and combined with placing the PB before going into the Gravity Statue, it should probably save a good chunk of time. Probably not enough to make Charge early clearly better, but it might make it a serious question again. EDIT2: This is a little more than 2 seconds faster than my old run, though the usual method might be improvable with wavebeam, so it could be less than that in the end. But if you take it as 2 seconds, then combined with the gains from the Croco shinespark and the bomb spread in the bubble room, that's about 3.5 seconds. Plus whatever amount of time the landing site wrap around could save, if any, and possibly being able to save in on a couple of super missiles, and potentially something undiscovered. It could be a pretty tough choice.

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Posted: 1/21/2012 11:39 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

Fucking cool, man!!! A Charged Shot can probably save time somewhere else we don't remember now. Btw, regarding the smv you posted, it was just a test and you didn't want to use the kago power bomb or you forgot about it? The one Saturn found long time ago. After placing the bomb on the ground, jump on the statue doing a kago trick, then place the power bomb while falling inside the statue in the right spot to clean the shootable blocks, unmorph and jump to the small passage. Also, there's the possibility of shooting the blocks earlier, maybe using charge. Anyway, this last part needs testing. Great SMV Also, i thought it would be possible to do the trick without using the charge beam, just shooting, but it seems i was wrong. :( Edit: Sorry. You said the old strat is improvable by the use of the wave beam, you're probably talking about clearing the blocks next to the statue, but anyway, if that is improvable, this last one you posted is too using the same strategy, which would make it the same amount of time faster anyway, imo. Unless i'm missing something.

Posted: 1/22/2012 12:18 AM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

I skipped the kago trick on the statue to make it more comparable to my old run. Actually, when I rewatched it I saw that I did it in a different way in my old run anyway, but there's only a few frames of difference. Anyway, the way I think wavebeam might improve the old strat is that it might make it possible to hit the 2nd robot before the 1st one falls into the pit, which I couldn't do with only Spazer. Destroying the blocks without a PB seems to only be possible if you stand to the right of the statue, so unless a better spot can be found, that won't save time.

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Posted: 1/22/2012 12:30 AM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
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I'd say early Charge has more untapped potential which hasn't been discovered yet. It will likely only be discovered in the process of actually making the TAS. If anything, it doesn't seem like it will cost any tangible amount of time even if it turns out to be the wrong choice...

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Posted: 1/22/2012 1:25 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Charged spazer can clear the blocks behind the chozo. Charged wave cannot. Go figure. You need to stand right next to the morphball tunnel and fire. Should save time over using a pb.

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Posted: 1/22/2012 2:06 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Also. If u do a charged morphball into the statues hands, you can release a bomb spread on the floor after being released.

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Posted: 1/22/2012 5:05 AM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

This is the best spot i could find to break the first blocks behind the Statue. I don't think there's a better spot than this one. Not optimized smv Edit: Places i can think are: The door that leads to the ki-hunters area, the same area where you collect the missile pack going for Kraid. I remember Saturn openning that oor with a charged shot before reaching it. I don't know if it really saves time or he did it just for a change. There could be a way to open that Dachora room exit door (the first room in pink brinstar area) with a charged shot after a jump and before a mockball. Maybe not. This one is more a question. Isn't there a way to open that pink brinstar E.T gate from a lower position using a Charged Spazer?

Posted: 1/22/2012 6:12 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

The kraid area and dachora room should definitely saves a few frames (maybe 3-5 frames each) with the charge beam. I am going to try and find the landing site wrap around from above with the spazer/wave/charge. I honestly think that it would save 3 seconds alone, which would then be enough to justify charge early.

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Posted: 1/22/2012 6:57 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Here it is: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1026182765/landing_site-wrap%21.smv now can we find an even better starting position?

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Posted: 1/22/2012 7:11 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

triple post: The wave/spazer charge can hit the left croco door from up by the etank. This is a big deal because it means that no acid damage needs to be sustained to make the connection. You can CWJ off croco can get to the etank without losing any hp! you can enter his lair with just 1 hp and be perfectly fine getting the etank and opening the reverse door.

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Posted: 1/22/2012 7:36 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

A quick test suggests that the landing site wrap around should save about 1:40, though you need 1 more E-tank to do it (this is probably not a problem). So early Charge does look pretty good now.

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