Topic by Kriole

Posted: 4/12/2013 3:47 PM

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Kriole

Experienced player (859)

Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden

Sorry, it seems I failed to explain what I meant. I'm fairly exhausted though, so please forgive me. I'm well aware that adding doorlag gives different drops, since the RNG is pushed slightly ahead. However, what I meant was, that drops such as Super Missiles and Power Bombs could magically change - they could differ depending on how much lag you added. Meaning, that if there is a Super Missile drop 30 frames after you enter the door, adding 5 frames of lag means that it should drop after 25 frames. It was also very easy to observe that all the drops up to that point followed the same pattern accordingly, however the drop itself might change from a Super Missile to a Power Bomb or Big Energy ball. Why this happens is beyond me, but I've noticed it on several occasions and as mentioned earlier, especially after the Botwoon fight (and Phantoon as well, but not to the same extent). Hopefully this is more clear.

Posted: 4/12/2013 4:01 PM

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BigBoct

He/Him

Editor, Former player

Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH

From your description, it sounds to me like input frames and lag frames advance the RNG in different ways/at different speeds.

Previous Name: boct1584

Posted: 4/13/2013 12:00 AM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

Thanks for the explanation, Kriole! I managed to improve the bubble room missile pack strategy a bit more. Just for you guys to have a base when optimizing. smv

Posted: 4/13/2013 5:54 AM

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Vykan12

Player (98)

Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Here's an encode of Cpadolf's latest WIP: Link to video I encourage others to make encodes for bkms since for the time being a lot of people can't play them back at a decent frame rate.

Posted: 4/13/2013 8:16 AM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2141)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

Thanks a lot for the encode, Vykan, much appreciated! And great looking WIP, Adolf =).

Posted: 4/13/2013 9:41 AM

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creaothceann

He/Him

Editor

Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany

downloadable version (100 MB)

Posted: 4/13/2013 10:10 AM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

If faster it's probably not worth, but decided to post it anyway. smv Edit: No big deal, but... smv

Posted: 4/15/2013 11:33 PM

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P.JBoy

Any

Editor

Joined: 3/25/2006
Posts: 850
Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!

Kriole wrote:

drops such as Super Missiles and Power Bombs could magically change - they could differ depending on how much lag you added. Meaning, that if there is a Super Missile drop 30 frames after you enter the door, adding 5 frames of lag means that it should drop after 25 frames.

Could you post a couple of SMV (or BKM) demonstrating this? I was quite sure lag frames didn't affect the RNG

Posted: 4/18/2013 9:04 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Hey cp, have you attempted the run towards croco yet?

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 4/18/2013 10:06 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

Yeah, croco has been finished and it went well. The whole section with the drops before and after speedbooster was changed to get better drops which sped things up a bit. And croco could be finished with 3 supers without any delay (only having 2 supers caused a delay of 8 frames). Also, Kriole and Taco joined up with me recently which should help the run significantly!

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 4/18/2013 10:32 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Wow. that's awesome news! You guys should make a very effective team. Do you plan on giving periodic updates here, or will this be more of a surprise submission? The peer review process can usually find little improvements here an there, but either way I am just glad to hear that the run is getting attention.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 4/19/2013 9:01 AM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

We are going to hold of more on public WIPs, but maybe we could set up something more private for people who are more involved with the run (you and Eye Of The Beholder come to mind). Depends on what the others think. On further inspection early Ice could be worth it, we'll have to test more closely exactly how much time it takes to grab, and all of the areas where it can save time. The ones that come to mind are the red brinstar shaft, the shaft before plasma, the pirates in the room with plasma (freezing cancels the invincibility timer so they can be killed faster), and of course getting springball. Unless I'm mistaken it'll only add 1 door transition and 1 pause screen which is not too bad either. Ice would be kept on until varia/spazer are disabled and the R-tank emptied (for the GT CF, this costs no time if at full health) somewhere around the turtle E-tank, and then enabled again at some point between Draygon and springball. Don't know if it would waste time anywhere. I guess there might be a few drops it would make more difficult to get due to freezing but I can't think of anything it would truly slow down. I guess all the wrap around stuff might have to be tested with Ice but I don't think Ice ever makes any difference to the hitbox so it probably wouldn't change anything.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 4/19/2013 11:35 AM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

Getting ice earlier would save time in the area with many enemies under the gates room that leads to ice by NOT having it equiped, at least over the previous run. When i considered ice earlier some time ago i tried to think in a way to grab also the missile pack in the tower under it, but couldn't think of anything usefull.

Posted: 4/19/2013 12:01 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

I think having wave would probably solve that, I think all the enemies in your way could be frozen with 1 shot and then killed with another one or missiles without slowing down.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 4/19/2013 2:08 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

So it's probably just the areas you pointed. Watching the run again i felt like ice would make impossible to collect some drops without slowing down samus a lot. It's a shame that trick to go through the ceiling to springball using grapple didn't work, otherwise it would make ice beam early a no go. Did anyone tried disabling gravity suit before the last jump in that test? Edit: also it would be good to have some numbers of early ice x late ice just to know better the time differences.

Posted: 4/19/2013 6:07 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

Ok, so Ice ends up saving almost exactly as much as the time of the detour (around 5 seconds), but due to the extra drops required to survive the run to ice would almost definitely take slightly longer, and would require 3 additional pause screens because the plasma pirates was actually slower with ice due to missing a damageboost in that room. So, best case scenario it's pretty much exactly as fast as taking it later but you get several extra pause screens. Therefore it definitely seems like it should be skipped Eye: Taking of gravity suit shouldn't make a difference because it's not the actual speed you are traveling with that pushes you through the roof, but the boos you get from a crouch jump that makes your hitbox go inside the block.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 4/19/2013 6:32 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

I'd say that's really good news! The run would suffer a lot with the extra pauses which would kill the entertainment. Regarding the gravity jump, the idea was to disable it for the second jump, the one before the attempt to go through the ceiling, don't know if that would make any difference though.

Posted: 4/19/2013 6:49 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

All it could do is potentially get a slightly better position before making the final jump, but Kriole already got a position that was extremely close to perfect so I don't think it could make a difference. It'll probably be re-tested once we get there but I doubt it's possible.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 4/19/2013 10:42 PM

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Dessyreqt

Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 68

While the suggestion was bad, I'm happy early Ice was at least looked into. As for my other suggestions, I apologize, since I published that data, I had a second set of eyes (zoast, current 100% console WR holder) look at it and we discovered a couple of errors. They have been fixed and reality seems to skew more in favor of traditional routes (going down green and up blue.) That said, and I'm sure you were going to do this anyway, but gauntlet after WS seems to be the best time to do it. There's a spazer wraparound that I'm sure you guys already know about that can be done from the top of the gunship room near the PB door. It's just like the plasma wraparound only the positioning is a little higher up the hill. Of course, I'm not sure it's faster than just speedballing over to the gauntlet and then doing a short charge. But I thought I'd throw it out there on the off chance you guys hadn't seen it yet.

Posted: 4/20/2013 10:22 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

It seems the best option in this situation is to place the Power Bomb as close as possible to the bomb block. smv Edit: Managed to improve the Pink Brinstar Power Bomb room a bit more by using grapple while going through the solid block and by a better damage boost from the spikes. smv

Posted: 5/2/2013 12:52 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

an alternate strategy for the bubble room cleanup: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/download/6285130127679659

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 5/9/2013 12:05 AM
(Edited: 5/9/2013 12:40 AM)

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DecafGrub47393

Joined: 4/23/2013
Posts: 59

I have researched the possible routes for 100%, and these items should be left alone until after Ridley. 3 Energy Tanks (Ridley, Fireflea Room, Blue Brinstar) 1 Reserve Tank (Norfair) X-Ray Scope 10 Power Bombs (Lower Norfair top and Blue Brinstar) Crateria Super Missile Tank 55 Missiles (Bubble Room, Dragon Room, Right of Dragon Room, Both near the Reserve, All 3 Blue Brinstar, Green Brinstar pipe, Old Mother Brain, Above gate to Tourian) Question: When will you post your latest WIP?

Posted: 5/9/2013 12:34 AM

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BigBoct

He/Him

Editor, Former player

Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH

Can you elaborate on which items specifically should be left until after Ridley?

Previous Name: boct1584

Posted: 5/9/2013 1:41 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

More importantly is why they should wait until after ridley. The xray scope for will definitely be done well before ridley, now that we have super short charge plus spike combo which allows a shinespark towards xray.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 5/13/2013 1:34 PM

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DecafGrub47393

Joined: 4/23/2013
Posts: 59

I am thinking of doing an NBMB 73% run with Taco and Kriole. After getting all 73 items, the run will head to Tourian and defeat Mother Brain.